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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Christ applies redemption as well!
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
From post 24 —
Here you quote a scripture that plainly says…
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,not imputing their trespasses unto them;
Then you turn around with the same breath and make this statement -
So the Gospel call goes out to the already redeemed or the already reconciled, now is time for them to receive the Knowledge and comfort of them.
This is a contradiction because the scripture says God was in Christ reconciling the world, which means the unsaved, unreconciled world of unbelievers, then you say the. Gospel call goes out to the “already redeemed”, a clear contradiction.
So now I am asking you to clarify for us what you mean by answering my question that asks —
Who are you saying is excluded from the biblical phrase “the world”?
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17
Question:
Who are you saying is excluded from the biblical phrase “the world”?
JLB
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My answer is the Church of the redeemed; Christians, people who are saved.
So when the scripture says….
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17
or
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2
We can be assured that God loves unsaved people and desires for them to be saved, born again, redeemed, or reconciled to God.
Jesus is the means by which the world’s sins are forgiven.
JLB
jlb
2 Cor 5:18
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
again is Vs 19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
So those in Vs 20 had already been reconciled to God by Christs death.
So the word of reconciliation to them in Vs 20, is be ye reconciled . This imperative is in the original in the passive voice, meaning they are being acted upon, God the Holy Spirit is reconciling their minds and heart to the Truth of their reconciliation by the word of God, basically its the effectual call to faith.
2 Cor 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Remember this imperative is in the passive voice.
Yes, thats correct. The scripture plainly stated they were already reconciled. Vs 18
2 Cor 5:18
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
again is Vs 19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
So those in Vs 20 had already been reconciled to God by Christs death.
So the word of reconciliation to them in Vs 20, is be ye reconciled . This imperative is in the original in the passive voice, meaning they are being acted upon, God the Holy Spirit is reconciling their minds and heart to the Truth of their reconciliation by the word of God, basically its the effectual call to faith.
2 Cor 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Remember this imperative is in the passive voice.
When 2 Cor is taken as a whole, the verses of chapter 5 cannot be separated from the verses of chapter 2: wherein the "church" is being directed to forgive one who had not been reconciled to God.
The world is those who are unreconciled, unsaved.
God loves the world and desires them to be saved and thus reconciled to Himself.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17
JLB
So can you answer the question?
Who are you saying is excluded from the biblical phrase “the world”?
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19
God clearly desires the world to be saved, and to be reconciled to Him through the message of Jesus Christ and the cross.
This is the word of reconciliation; the message of Christ
Again, if you could answer my question which comes from John 3:17
In this passage who are you saying is excluded from the biblical phrase “the world”?
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17
JLB
It is your 'belief'. It is what you're saying. It is not what you're proving.
And neglecting my other question shows you are not 'proving' it.
Quantrill
Indeed, Paul's emphasis is that the elect may also obtain the same said salvation that he has experienced.
No. There is nothing there to indicate Paul's 'elect' is just to other Jews. The elect covers both Jew and Gentile. Israel and the Church.
As I said before, the comparison is between the salvation of Paul and the salvation of the elect. Not between the elect and the non-elect.
Because the 'elect' are called the elect by God, then they 'are' a special group of people.
That the elect are saved first and then believe is not the point. That God has an elect who are guaranteed salvation is the point, which you disagree with.
Quantrill
Freed from sin !
Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
2 Cor 5:14
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
All for whom Christ died for, His Body the Church, actually in the eyes of God's Law and Justice, died with Him, and so be dead, they are dead to sin and dead to the law !
Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Paul is saying, all for whom Christ died are dead to the Law because of His Body, that is because of this 1 Pet 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
You see how both Paul and Peter teach the same thing ?
Now when I say that the Elect or the Body of Christ is freed from their sins, what is meant, not that they are not born sinners, in fact, some of the worst sort of sinners they may be, but they are born free from the condemnation of sin, they are born sinners acquitted of all their transgressions. The word freed in Rom 6:7 is the greek word dikaioō:
and means:
to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
They are born as sinners already Justified or declared Righteous before the sight of God. They have no sins charged against them, Because, Christ has paid their redemption price already, even though it has yet been experimentally applied to them by their New Birth !
So Christ's Sheep cannot be born as others condemned already ! Those to it is said this of Jn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Their condemnation is not because of their unbelief or their refusal to believe on the Son, but for their sins against God's Law are they condemned already, and their refusal believe is an evidence of they being under condemnation !
But those Christ died for, they cannot be condemned by God's law as unbelievers, because Christ has satisfied all of God's Law and Justice on their behalf, so they are born freed from sin ! and dead to the law by the body of Christ !
Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
2 Cor 5:14
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
All for whom Christ died for, His Body the Church, actually in the eyes of God's Law and Justice, died with Him, and so be dead, they are dead to sin and dead to the law !
Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Paul is saying, all for whom Christ died are dead to the Law because of His Body, that is because of this 1 Pet 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
You see how both Paul and Peter teach the same thing ?
Now when I say that the Elect or the Body of Christ is freed from their sins, what is meant, not that they are not born sinners, in fact, some of the worst sort of sinners they may be, but they are born free from the condemnation of sin, they are born sinners acquitted of all their transgressions. The word freed in Rom 6:7 is the greek word dikaioō:
and means:
to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
They are born as sinners already Justified or declared Righteous before the sight of God. They have no sins charged against them, Because, Christ has paid their redemption price already, even though it has yet been experimentally applied to them by their New Birth !
So Christ's Sheep cannot be born as others condemned already ! Those to it is said this of Jn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Their condemnation is not because of their unbelief or their refusal to believe on the Son, but for their sins against God's Law are they condemned already, and their refusal believe is an evidence of they being under condemnation !
But those Christ died for, they cannot be condemned by God's law as unbelievers, because Christ has satisfied all of God's Law and Justice on their behalf, so they are born freed from sin ! and dead to the law by the body of Christ !
Yeah its my belief, what the word teaches, and Im testifying to it by using scripture.
Not so. That is exactly what (2 Cor. 5:19) says. God reconciled the world to Himself through the death of Christ. That doesn't make the world saved. Thus the further admonition in (2 Cor. 5:20), "be ye reconciled to God".
God has dealt with that which is offensive between Him and the world. Sin. But the world refuses to be reconciled to God.
Not imputing the worlds sins to them is not the same as having the imputed righteousness of Christ which comes by faith. It simply means the world is not immediately judged for their sins.
Quantrill
You said, Christ died for all that He applies redemption to. That by itself is a true statement. The error comes when you say Christ only died for those who are redeemed.
Quantrill
It is so, it says it right in the verse 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Yes, Christ died for everyone He applies redemption to !
The elect here in this passage refers to a people group who were elected to be the bloodline through whom the Messiah came.
They we’re elected for purpose, not salvation.
Paul desires for them to also obtain salvation through Christ.
Why would Paul or anyone else need to endure all things for the sake of the elect, if they are guaranteed salvation?
No such scripture, or phrase as “garuanteed salvation” exists in the Bible.
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10
Why would the elect need to obtain salvation if they were already guaranteed salvation?
Do you understand what obtain means? It means the opposite of what
“guaranteed salvation” implies.
Here Jesus uses that word to describe this who obtain eternal life and the resurrection of the dead.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36
There is no such concept in the Bible as elected to receive guaranteed salvation.
JLB
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