Christ applies redemption as well!

[GodsGrace]

Not so. That is exactly what (2 Cor. 5:19) says. God reconciled the world to Himself through the death of Christ. That doesn't make the world saved. Thus the further admonition in (2 Cor. 5:20), "be ye reconciled to God".

God has dealt with that which is offensive between Him and the world. Sin. But the world refuses to be reconciled to God.

Not imputing the worlds sins to them is not the same as having the imputed righteousness of Christ which comes by faith. It simply means the world is not immediately judged for their sins.

Quantrill

Have said in the past and will repeat :
As Adam lost relationship for all men through his disobedience, so Christ's obedience has gained back men from Satan's hostage and the possibility of the previous relationship with God
for all those that desire it.
Christ died for all men just as Adam sinned for all men, but not all men desire salvation.

 

[Hopeful]

Freed from sin !

Rom 6:7

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

2 Cor 5:14

14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

All for whom Christ died for, His Body the Church, actually in the eyes of God's Law and Justice, died with Him, and so be dead, they are dead to sin and dead to the law !

Rom 7:4

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Paul is saying, all for whom Christ died are dead to the Law because of His Body, that is because of this 1 Pet 2:24

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

You see how both Paul and Peter teach the same thing ?

Now when I say that the Elect or the Body of Christ is freed from their sins, what is meant, not that they are not born sinners, in fact, some of the worst sort of sinners they may be, but they are born free from the condemnation of sin, they are born sinners acquitted of all their transgressions. The word freed in Rom 6:7 is the greek word dikaioō:

and means:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

They are born as sinners already Justified or declared Righteous before the sight of God. They have no sins charged against them, Because, Christ has paid their redemption price already, even though it has yet been experimentally applied to them by their New Birth !

So Christ's Sheep cannot be born as others condemned already ! Those to it is said this of Jn 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Their condemnation is not because of their unbelief or their refusal to believe on the Son, but for their sins against God's Law are they condemned already, and their refusal believe is an evidence of they being under condemnation !

But those Christ died for, they cannot be condemned by God's law as unbelievers, because Christ has satisfied all of God's Law and Justice on their behalf, so they are born freed from sin ! and dead to the law by the body of Christ !

You have put the cart before the horse.
Nobody who doesn't get reborn is counted as elect, free from sin, justified, righteous, saved, or uncondemned.
Men are "reborn" free from sin.

 

[brightfame52]

You have put the cart before the horse.
Nobody who doesn't get reborn is counted as elect, free from sin, justified, righteous, saved, or uncondemned.
Men are "reborn" free from sin.

I dont know what you talking about. Did you understand the post ? You want me to explain it to you a bit more ?

 

[Quantrill]

It is so, it says it right in the verse 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

What's not so is what you said. Not what (2 Cor. 5:19-20) says.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Yes, Christ died for everyone He applies redemption to !

Again, a true statement. But Christ died for all the sins of the world also. That is the point you have trouble with.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

The elect here in this passage refers to a people group who were elected to be the bloodline through whom the Messiah came.

They we’re elected for purpose, not salvation.

Paul desires for them to also obtain salvation through Christ.


Why would Paul or anyone else need to endure all things for the sake of the elect, if they are guaranteed salvation?

No such scripture, or phrase as “garuanteed salvation” exists in the Bible.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Why would the elect need to obtain salvation if they were already guaranteed salvation?


Do you understand what obtain means? It means the opposite of what
“guaranteed salvation” implies.


Here Jesus uses that word to describe this who obtain eternal life and the resurrection of the dead.


But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


There is no such concept in the Bible as elected to receive guaranteed salvation.



JLB

Being elect doesn't discount the process that God has established for one to be saved. It is through faith in Jesus Christ. Through the proclamation of the Gospel. Through the believers who bring that Gospel. Through the Holy Spirit that affirms these truths to that one.

When one who is the 'elect' is born into the human race. He is lost. He is one of God's...but lost. God will get him back through the process of salvation described above.

In other words, the 'elect' are needing salvation. The 'elect' need to obtain this salvation. Until they do, they are lost. While they are lost...satan seeks to kill them before they can get to that place of salvation. Thus the spiritual, angelic, warfare. God is keeping His people alive until they come into that salvation. None who are elect will ever be lost.

The 'purpose' of God is to save His people. The elect. God knows His people. And, He knows those who are not His.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Have said in the past and will repeat :
As Adam lost relationship for all men through his disobedience, so Christ's obedience has gained back men from Satan's hostage and the possibility of the previous relationship with God
for all those that desire it.
Christ died for all men just as Adam sinned for all men, but not all men desire salvation.

I agree. And would say...not all those born of Adam after the fall, are of God. And so, they have no desire or need for God. They are of their father the devil.

As you say, they do not desire salvation. They want nothing to do with God. They don't want the lake of fire, but neither do they want anything to do with God.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Being elect doesn't discount the process that God has established for one to be saved. It is through faith in Jesus Christ. Through the proclamation of the Gospel. Through the believers who bring that Gospel. Through the Holy Spirit that affirms these truths to that one.

Amen.


Everyone must follow the same set of criteria.




JLB

 

[JLB]

In other words, the 'elect' are needing salvation. The 'elect' need to obtain this salvation. Until they do, they are lost.

Amen.

 

[Quantrill]

Amen.


Everyone must follow the same set of criteria.




JLB

Amen.

Your cherry pickin and amenin of my posts is deceptive.

You do not agree with me. You simply tried to present a facade of something you can amen to.

The majority and emphasis of my posts you ignore, as you do not agree. And I do not agree with you.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Your cherry pickin and amenin of my posts is deceptive.

You do not agree with me. You simply tried to present a facade of something you can amen to.

The majority and emphasis of my posts you ignore, as you do not agree. And I do not agree with you.

Quantrill

I try to find the parts of your posts that I agree with.


What is wrong with trying to find things that we agree with each other on?




JLB

 

[Quantrill]

I try to find the parts of your posts that I agree with.


What is wrong with trying to find things that we agree with each other on?




JLB

Well, that is fine, I suppose.

But it doesn't present the whole of what was said. And that bothers me, as I know you disagree with me.

If all I said is what you quoted, it would be different. But that is not all I said.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Well, that is fine, I suppose.

But it doesn't present the whole of what was said. And that bothers me, as I know you disagree with me.

If all I said is what you quoted, it would be different. But that is not all I said.

Quantrill

Ok.

Lets discuss the parts you believe I disagree with.

Please state what it is with the scripture and lets discuss.


JLB

 

[Hopeful]

I dont know what you talking about. Did you understand the post ? You want me to explain it to you a bit more ?

You were doing fine until you wrote..."Now when I say that the Elect or the Body of Christ is freed from their sins, what is meant, not that they are not born sinners, in fact, some of the worst sort of sinners they may be, but they are born free from the condemnation of sin, they are born sinners acquitted of all their transgressions."
The bold portion should have read..."but they were REborn free from the condemnation of sin.
You seem to have given them their freedom from sin before they even turned from sin (repented of sin).

 

[Quantrill]

Ok.

Lets discuss the parts you believe I disagree with.

Please state what it is with the scripture and lets discuss.


JLB

I believe your post #(140) and my post #(152) explains it.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

I believe your post #(140) and my post #(152) explains it.

Quantrill

Whenever you are ready to have a discussion about what you believe we disagree on, then please state what that is and the scripture that validates your perspective.

I won’t be going back through different posts to try and assume what it is we disagree on.





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

We are sanctified by the Death of Christ !

Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We know that Christ could not have died or has offered Himself for everyone with exception, simply because one the accomplishments of His Death or Offering [same thing] is that it [ The Death] sanctified forever those He died for !

That word sanctified means , they were set apart for a Holy Purpose of God, permanently !

The word sanctified in the greek is in the perfect tense which means :

Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."


Those Christ died for have been sanctified once and for all time !


When an Elect sinner is born into this world, since Christ died for them over 2000 yrs ago, they are born as sinners, dead in trespasses and sins, children of wrath By Nature as others, enemies in their minds against God, however that said, they are perfectly set apart by God for a Holy Purpose to perform for God. Like Jeremiah Jer 1:5

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

But guess what ? Jeremiah was still born a sinner, by nature a child of wrath as others [Eph 2:3], an enemies to God in his mind by wicked works [Col 1:21]

So every elect sinner born into this world that Christ died for and consequently sanctified them for the Holy Purpose of God, must be born again to fulfill that purpose. It is inevitable, they must and all be born again by the Spirit, a Sanctifying Work of His 2 Thess 2:13

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Oh Yes, Like believers of the Truth today, so did Jeremiah need the same work of the Spirit to bring Him to Faith in the Truth ! So He could Preach the Gospel of Imputed Righteousness Jer 23:6

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

He had the same righteousness revealed to him by the Gospel as believers do today Rom 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Now if everyone Christ died for does not come to experience the Sanctifying Work of the Holy Spirit as described in 2 Thess 2:13, Christ's death has failed its purpose of God. The Death of Christ alone has ensured and made certain the setting apart experimentally of each member, or person of His Body He died for, for each one has a Holy Purpose for God to perform 1 Cor 12 ; Eph 2:10

Now, If Christ died for these Matt 25:41 then they also had to be sanctified forever for God's Holy Purpose, which is absurd !

 

[brightfame52]

What's not so is what you said. Not what (2 Cor. 5:19-20) says.

Quantrill

You lost me. Listen to the scripture, the world in view in 2 Cor 5:19 they dont have their sins charged to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[brightfame52]

Again, a true statement. But Christ died for all the sins of the world also. That is the point you have trouble with.

Quantrill

Its a true statement because its a true achievement of His Death.

 

[brightfame52]

You were doing fine until you wrote..."Now when I say that the Elect or the Body of Christ is freed from their sins, what is meant, not that they are not born sinners, in fact, some of the worst sort of sinners they may be, but they are born free from the condemnation of sin, they are born sinners acquitted of all their transgressions."
The bold portion should have read..."but they were REborn free from the condemnation of sin.
You seem to have given them their freedom from sin before they even turned from sin (repented of sin).

Negative, its fine and the truth the way its written. Those Christ died for are not condemned, Christ was condemned in their stead. Both Christ and those He substituted for can be condemned for the same sins and law breaking, thats unjust which can never be with God, as it is written Gen 18:25

That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?