Jesus Has Ascended Into Heaven

[Mungo]

Some criticise Catholics regarding crucifixes. They say Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) - so why do you show him on the cross?

This must be one of the silliest attacks on Catholics.
I have on my wall a photograph of one of my daughters with a gown on after her graduation from University. You could ask why show her with a gown on - she doesn't wear one now.

Another photograph shows her in a wedding dress. You could ask - why do you show her with a wedding dress on. She doesn't have one on now (she doesn't even have it - it was hired)
The answer of course is simple. These photographs are reminders of some important moment in her life.

Similarly Jesus on the cross reminds us of one of the most important things in Jesus' life - what he did for us on the cross.

Paul wrote:
" For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:22-24)

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1Cor 2:2)

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." (Gal 2:20)

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" (Gal 3:1)

Jesus crucified was very important for Paul and should be for us also. When we see Jesus on the cross it is a reminder of what he suffered for us.

 

[jaybo]

Some criticise Catholics regarding crucifixes. They say Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) - so why do you show him on the cross?

This must be one of the silliest attacks on Catholics.
I have on my wall a photograph of one of my daughters with a gown on after her graduation from University. You could ask why show her with a gown on - she doesn't wear one now.

Another photograph shows her in a wedding dress. You could ask - why do you show her with a wedding dress on. She doesn't have one on now (she doesn't even have it - it was hired)
The answer of course is simple. These photographs are reminders of some important moment in her life.

Similarly Jesus on the cross reminds us of one of the most important things in Jesus' life - what he did for us on the cross.

Paul wrote:
" For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:22-24)

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1Cor 2:2)

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." (Gal 2:20)

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" (Gal 3:1)

Jesus crucified was very important for Paul and should be for us also. When we see Jesus on the cross it is a reminder of what he suffered for us.

That is very poor reasoning! Are you seriously comparing photos of one of your daughters at various stages of her life to the depiction of Jesus on the cross? If your daughter died, would you also show a picture of her in her coffin?

You're obviously aware that the great majority of the Gospels depict Jesus as alive. That is the equivalent of depicting your daughters at various stages of their lives.

Jesus died but He was resurrected! Catholics show Jesus as dead on the cross! That is wrong and distasteful in the extreme.

 

[Mungo]

That is very poor reasoning! Are you seriously comparing photos of one of your daughters at various stages of her life to the depiction of Jesus on the cross? If your daughter died, would you also show a picture of her in her coffin?

You're obviously aware that the great majority of the Gospels depict Jesus as alive. That is the equivalent of depicting your daughters at various stages of their lives.

Jesus died but He was resurrected! Catholics show Jesus as dead on the cross! That is wrong and distasteful in the extreme.

I am shocked that you should so trivialise Christ's death on the cross.

Paul wrote:
"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor 1:17-18)

" For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:22-24)

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1Cor 2:2)

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." (Gal 2:20)

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" (Gal 3:1)

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." (Gal 6:14)

"And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross." (Phil 2:8)

"and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end." (Eph 2:16)
"and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (Col 1:20)

It was through the cross that we were reconciled to God
It was on the cross that God showed the extent of his love for us.

Seeing a crucifix reminds us of what did for us.
God died on the cross for us.
And you treat it as trivial

 

[jaybo]

I am shocked that you should so trivialise Christ's death on the cross.

Paul wrote:
"For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor 1:17-18)

" For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:22-24)

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1Cor 2:2)

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." (Gal 2:20)

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" (Gal 3:1)

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." (Gal 6:14)

"And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross." (Phil 2:8)

"and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end." (Eph 2:16)
"and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (Col 1:20)

It was through the cross that we were reconciled to God
It was on the cross that God showed the extent of his love for us.

Seeing a crucifix reminds us of what did for us.
God died on the cross for us.
And you treat it as trivial

Christ has moved on from His death on the cross, and so should you. I am not treating His death on the cross as trivial. In fact I think it is the most important act of sacrifice ever performed.

Notice the title of this thread: Jesus has ascended into heaven.

Why are you so fixated on His death? That is very, very very strange. He has been resurrected and is now at the right hand of God.

 

[jaybo]

The plain crosses that I have in my home and those I see in the churches that I attend are all adequate reminders of both Jesus' death and His resurrection. I find it very disturbing that you and other Catholics have to stare at a dead person.

 

[Mungo]

Christ has moved on from His death on the cross, and so should you. I am not treating His death on the cross as trivial. In fact I think it is the most important act of sacrifice ever performed.

Notice the title of this thread: Jesus has ascended into heaven.

Why are you so fixated on His death? That is very, very very strange. He has been resurrected and is now at the right hand of God.

The plain crosses that I have in my home and those I see in the churches that I attend are all adequate reminders of both Jesus' death and His resurrection. I find it very disturbing that you and other Catholics have to stare at a dead person.

I'm not interested in your opinions.
They are irrelevant

 

[jaybo]

I'm not interested in your opinions. They are irrelevant and false.

Jeus is alive in heaven, not dead on the cross. Mary is not "ever virgin" and is dead.

 

[Mungo]

I'm not interested in your opinions. They are irrelevant and false.

Jeus is alive in heaven, not dead on the cross. Mary is not "ever virgin" and is dead.

I'm already aware of your personal and fallible opinions on the matter.

 

[jaybo]

I'm already aware of your personal and fallible opinions on the matter.

Wonderful! However, my opinions are straight from the Bible, unlike yours, which are the teachings of men.

I believe exactly what the Bible says, not false doctrine. Sola scriptura!

 

[Mungo]

Wonderful! However, my opinions are straight from the Bible, unlike yours, which are the teachings of men.

I believe exactly what the Bible says, not false doctrine. Sola scriptura!

Your opinions are just from your head.

However we agree that we are not interested in each others opinions.

 

[jaybo]

Your opinions are just from your head.

However we agree that we are not interested in each others opinions.

Where are your opinions from? Your arms, feet, torso?

 

[Free]

Some criticise Catholics regarding crucifixes. They say Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) - so why do you show him on the cross?

This must be one of the silliest attacks on Catholics.
I have on my wall a photograph of one of my daughters with a gown on after her graduation from University. You could ask why show her with a gown on - she doesn't wear one now.

Another photograph shows her in a wedding dress. You could ask - why do you show her with a wedding dress on. She doesn't have one on now (she doesn't even have it - it was hired)
The answer of course is simple. These photographs are reminders of some important moment in her life.

Similarly Jesus on the cross reminds us of one of the most important things in Jesus' life - what he did for us on the cross.

Paul wrote:
" For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:22-24)

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1Cor 2:2)

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." (Gal 2:20)

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" (Gal 3:1)

Jesus crucified was very important for Paul and should be for us also. When we see Jesus on the cross it is a reminder of what he suffered for us.

On the one hand, yes, Christ has risen and the cross is empty, so I have a couple of crosses around the house like that. On the other, there is no resurrection without Jesus on the cross and it is not just anyone's cross. And so I have a metal bookmark with a crucifix that hangs outside of the pages. Either way, they are reminders of "Jesus Christ and him crucified."

 

[WIP]

Even though nobody knows what Jesus looked like and so the man in our painting is not really Him but we have a picture on our wall depicting or characterizing Jesus on His knees praying in the garden at Gethsemane. Then there are crucifixes, crosses, statues of Biblical personas including Jesus, medallions, and so forth kept and used all the time by Catholics and Protestants alike. I've witnessed Christians kiss the pendants of recognized saints, Mary, or Jesus worn around their necks and pray to them. I've witnessed Christians kneeling before statues of Mary, Saints, and Crucifixes while looking up to them and praying or dare I say worshipping?

Even though we've come up with all kinds of explanations to justify doing these things, I've often wondered if we are splitting hairs and trying to walk a fine line with regard to God's commandment, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;" Exodus 20:3-4 NKJV

Scripture says, "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."
Galatians 6:7-8 NKJV

 

[Walpole]

Even though nobody knows what Jesus looked like and so the man in our painting is not really Him but we have a picture on our wall depicting or characterizing Jesus on His knees praying in the garden at Gethsemane. Then there are crucifixes, crosses, statues of Biblical personas including Jesus, medallions, and so forth kept and used all the time by Catholics and Protestants alike. I've witnessed Christians kiss the pendants of recognized saints, Mary, or Jesus worn around their necks and pray to them. I've witnessed Christians kneeling before statues of Mary, Saints, and Crucifixes while looking up to them and praying or dare I say worshipping?

Even though we've come up with all kinds of explanations to justify doing these things, I've often wondered if we are splitting hairs and trying to walk a fine line with regard to God's commandment, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;" Exodus 20:3-4 NKJV

Scripture says, "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."
Galatians 6:7-8 NKJV

Exodus 20 is certainly the best Biblical argument against iconography. However, in context - particularly in light of Christian revelation - I'll try to demonstrate why it doesn't hold.

First, Exodus 20 cannot be a blanket condemnation of all images because just five chapters later, the same God who promulgates the decalogue tells the Jews to make statues of things in heaven, on earth, and under the sea. Therefore, God cannot be against all images because he actually commands images.

Secondly, and most importantly, Christ said, "whoever sees me, sees the Father." Thus, God Himself is the ultimate iconographer.

"[Christ] Who is the image of the invisible God..." (Col 1:15)

The incarnation itself is an icon. By becoming man, God has now taken on flesh and His creation is now the theater of His grace. God is no longer hidden. He is now material, physical and visible. God can now be portrayed because He is fully God and fully man. He has been seen; He has taken on our nature.

 

[WIP]

First, Exodus 20 cannot be a blanket condemnation of all images because just five chapters later, the same God who promulgates the decalogue tells the Jews to make statues of things in heaven, on earth, and under the sea. Therefore, God cannot be against all images because he actually commands images.

Could you post the references please? As I read chapter 25, I'm not picking up what you're speaking of.

 

[Walpole]

Could you post the references please? As I read chapter 25, I'm not picking up what you're speaking of.

In Exodus 25:18-20, God commands gold cherubim be made on the ark. (Image of something in heaven.)

In Exodus 25:33, God commands bowls be made with flowers on them. (Image of something on earth.)

In Exodus 28:33, God commands robes be made with images of pomegranates on them. (Image of something on earth.)

 

[WIP]

In Exodus 25:18-20, God commands gold cherubim be made on the ark. (Image of something in heaven.)

In Exodus 25:33, God commands bowls be made with flowers on them. (Image of something on earth.)

In Exodus 28:33, God commands robes be made with images of pomegranates on them. (Image of something on earth.)

One thing we have to be careful of is placing God into our little boxes. Who are we to decide what is and what is not right? In Exodus 20 God says....

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;" (NKJV)

God instructs us what WE shall not do for OURSELVES.

God also instructed the Israelites to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan. Does that justify us killing others of our choosing? God's thoughts are not our thoughts and God's ways are not our ways. He is the potter and we are merely the clay. He is sovereign, we are not.

 

[Mungo]

One thing we have to be careful of is placing God into our little boxes. Who are we to decide what is and what is not right? In Exodus 20 God says....

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;" (NKJV)

God instructs us what WE shall not do for OURSELVES.

God also instructed the Israelites to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan. Does that justify us killing others of our choosing? God's thoughts are not our thoughts and God's ways are not our ways. He is the potter and we are merely the clay. He is sovereign, we are not.

In Ex 20 who was God speaking to?

 

[WIP]

In Ex 20 who was God speaking to?

He was speaking to the people of Israel. What does that matter? They were still instructed not to make images for themselves. Just as God instructed them not to kill and then later instructs them to kill for His purpose, if God later chooses to instruct them to make images for a specific purpose that is His choice. It is not ours.

 

[Mungo]

He was speaking to the people of Israel. What does that matter? They were still instructed not to make images for themselves. Just as God instructed them not to kill and then later instructs them to kill for His purpose, if God later chooses to instruct them to make images for a specific purpose that is His choice. It is not ours.

"He was speaking to the people of Israel."

Exactly. He was giving them the covenant law for the covenant they were entering into.
It was not given to gentiles, or even to the Israelites before this time.
"Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day." (Dt 5:3)

As Paul wrote:
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:12)
Gentiles were strangers to the covenant.

As such it is not applicable to us, as we (Christians) are not in that covenant.

Paul declared himself not under the Law (referring to the Jewish law)
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law [Gentiles] I became as one outside the law--not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ--that I might win those outside the law. (1Cor 9:20-21)
He also makes here a clear distinction between those under the Law (the Jews) and those not under the Law (the Gentiles)