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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?
- Thread starter Pass-A-Gospel-Tract
- Start date
What about original sin?
And I said they have no personal sun.
But they have no grace without baptism
Jn 3:5 must be born again
Chuck Clark
Member
From Chuck Clark:
Where I am coming from, as a former pastor (the least important qualification BTW); the more important is my having studied the Bible for over 60 years with the solid foundation of 5 years of Bible College that gave me the basic
principles of: 1st) what does the Bible actually SAY? That is, without reading anything INTO the text that isn't there! Technical terms, Exegesis rather than Eisegesis-- the former is simply opening up the truth of Scripture correctly. In order to do that we do need to know the tools to get to that truth i.e. first, but not practical for most of us is knowing the "original languages" (which I don't know, as is true of most of us), fortunately we do have many excellent versions of the Bible today with scholars who have that knowledge and do give us a pretty accurate understanding, but not completely.
Then, paying close attention to CONTEXT, in other words not taking single verses as a proof text. Actually, we need the near text-- the verses surrounding the verse-- but then the whole book itself and then expanded to the whole Bible!! Short sum of some of the other common-sense tools, like with any piece of literature. How the audience being written to, [like you point out that James is written to the 12 tribes, scattered abroad], would understand the points the author was getting at?
Next, getting to the "intent" of the writer and what he wanted to get across to his audience? Example, Paul to the Galatians and his amazement at their wanting to go back under the Law instead of enjoying their "freedom in Christ" as the end of the Law to all who believe by faith in His finished work on the cross! Next, to understand the audience. You need to know the historical setting in which they were living. How they would receive what the author was saying?
Lastly, for this writing, the genre, literal, symbolic, etc. A good rule of thumb is that "when the literal sense makes common sense, seek no other sense"!
Now getting to the seeming conflict between James, "show me your faith by your works" and Paul, "a man is justified BY FAITH ALONE" Since we know that God does not contradict Himself, we know there is a solution. To me it is pretty obvious, beyond the idea that James is talking about the Jews during the Tribulation period. That may or may not be the case, but for me it misses the direct answer. These are not contradictory statements at all, rather they are totally COMPLIMENTARY!
Here's why and how? James, as we know, is very practical and writes from what we can clearly observe from a human standpoint. If you say you have "GENUINE FAITH" you need to show it to be backed up by evidence in the way you live. He uses the example of Abraham, (the father of faith), he clearly showed that his faith was truly connected to God and was genuine SAVING FAITH, when he offered up Isaac ( the promised son) as a sacrifice to God on the alter on Mt. Moriah. Hebrews gives us the greater explanation as to how he could do such a thing: (context of the whole Bible), Heb. 11:19 "Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death. NIV As you should know almost the whole of Heb. 11 shows us how true faith was revealed by the "actions" of those listed there!
Paul, on the other hand, is writing from God's perspective: He knows everyone's heart, which we as men can't see, all we can see are the "works". A well know example shows what I am talking about. The life of David, particularly after his sin with Bathsheba and following murder of her husband and his cover up. Did he show during that time in his life that he had true faith. From a human observation we would say a definite no to his salvation.
Some of you who don't read the Scriptures as you may think you do as to what it actually SAYS, might say that if David had died during this time before he confessed and repented as we read in Psalm 32 and 51, after he was confronted by the prophet Nathan. Read carefully Psa. 51:11,12 esp. v. 12 "Restore to me the JOY of Thy salvation" Clearly, he did not lose his salvation, but the Joy of it
because of his covering it up his sin instead of confessing it and getting his heart right again. Notice to the phrase, "Thy Salvation" It is the Work of God, not of David or any man including you and me. If it were by "us" we for sure could and would lose it. It is totally of God and only by faith THAT HE ALONE GIVES US, that Christ's shed blood and Resurrected Life Justifies us in God's sight. Eph. 2:8-10 says it about as clear as any passage in Scripture, v8) For it is by Grace, (God's riches at Christ's Expense) you have been Saved, through faith--and it is not from yourselves, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD--(can't be earned by our works!) v9) NOT BY WORKS, so that NO ONE CAN BOAST! 10) For we are GOD'S WORKMANSHIP, created IN CHRIST JESUS TO DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do. In other words, the works we do are not what saves us but they are the EVIDENCE that we have the Genuine Faith that we received from God alone!
So, Paul would agree with James that there should be the "Fruit of the Spirit" He, Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches, only when we are connected to Him do we produce the fruit. If a man does not have the Spirit, he is NONE OF HIS! As with David, we, still having our old nature as Paul described in Romans chap. 7 we too will have OUTWARD LAPSES! That is the context of the verse that tells us we are not to Judge, better word would be Condemn as though we are the final judge and can tell the person's heart, as to whether it is a lapse, or if the "good works" are an imitation of the real thing, coming from the Power of the Holy Spirit and not from the flesh?
There is much more that I could write to make the case, but hope this has been helpful and as part of this good platform, if you disagree, I welcome your feedback and reasons from Scripture for your disagreement.
If you disagree with Scripture that is not my problem.
Tertullian and Augustine were learned men who wrote Catholic doctrine. They did not write Scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
These scriptures?
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!
Obedience of the faithful Christians or spiritual anarchy?
I agreed with everything except your "sacraments" part.
The word "sacrament" isn't even in the bible.
There is no such thing as original sin.
It is just a catholic idea.
And what do they need grace for?
Rebirth must be a choice made by the participant.
we can't make that choice for anyone else.
All that education and you think we still have the old nature?
Dorothy Mae
Member
And a dead faith doesn’t save.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Oh, permission to go out and sin as much as you want.
Pass-A-Gospel-Tract
Member
Dorothy Mae
Member
That’s not grace. In fact the Bible calls that “grace changers.”
If you cannot express what you believe but can only tell us what other people believe it will be a short exchange.
Pass-A-Gospel-Tract
Member
Mind to site a bible verse on grace changers?
We believe in Once Saved Always Saved because we are saved by grace through Faith not Works (Eph. 2:8-9)
We are still sealed till the day of redemption (Rapture) even if we sin after we've gotten saved, but that does not mean we are allowed to sin because of Gal. 6:7-10 and the Parable of the Fig Tree
Here are some bible verse that will explain it
Ephesians 1:6 KJV
"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
If you're Saved in Christ Jesus then you are called a "Beloved"
Then go to 2 Corinthians 12:19-21 Where Paul is talking to other "Beloved" (Saved Christians)
19Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. 20For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: 21And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
As you've read there are some "Beloved" who have sinned and have not repented their sin after getting saved, but still called "Beloved" (Saved in Christ Jesus)
Also the video I shared, that's Pastor Gene Kim, and his credentials includes Bachelors, Masters and Doctorate from Pensacola Bible Institute and UC Berkeley
Really?
Promise of God:
Sacred oath:
A promise or sacred oath made by God is called a sacrament:
A sacrament is also the fruit of a sacrifice, grace or the merits of Christ are fruit of His sacrifice on the cross!
Lk 1:72
Acts 2:39 referring to ez 36:25-27
Acts 1:4
Acts 2:33
Acts 13:23
Acts 13:32
Acts 26:6
Acts 26:7
Rom 1:2
2 Tim 1:1-2
2 pet 1:4
1 Jn 2:25 and many more!
This sounds contradictory. Suppose you do sin after being saved. What then? If I understand Galatians 6:7-10, those who would continue in sin will reap from the seeds of corruption for which they have sown.
Pass-A-Gospel-Tract
Member
Hebrews 12:6
King James Version
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.When a Saved Christian sinned then God will chasten him/her, if a lost sinner sinned then he/she will be punished. Gal. 6:7-10 says that there are no exemption, when you sinned in your flesh then you will still reap what you sow even if you're a Saved Christian.
Remember, this is how God sees all of us
Isaiah 64:6 KJV
“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”Romans 3:10 KJV
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”Saved Christians are only righteous in the sight of God because our sins have been covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, it is a gift that we don't deserve, but because Jesus Christ love us that He became the perfect sacrificial lamb for the remission of our sins, and we only have to put our faith in Him to get saved, it's that easy.
Romans 5:9 KJV
“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”John 6:47 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”May I encourage you to read this Gospel Tract: ABC It's Simple To Be Saved
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Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Without grace and Christ infants that die cannot go to heaven
Jn 3:5
Acts 2:39 this promise is to you’re children
Acts 1:8 the church fathers are witnesses of Christ
IRENAEUS
“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
HIPPOLYTUS
“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).ORIGEN
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE
“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 58:2 [A.D. 253]).“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another” (ibid., 58:5).
GREGORY OF NAZIANZUS
“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).
JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).AUGUSTINE
“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
“Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born” (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).
“By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).
COUNCIL OF MILEUM II
“[W]hoever says that infants fresh from their mothers’ wombs ought not to be baptized, or say that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin of Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration . . . let him be anathema [excommunicated]. Since what the apostle [Paul] says, ‘Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so passed to all men, in whom all have sinned’ [Rom. 5:12], must not be understood otherwise than the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration” (Canon 3 [A.D. 416]).Sorry it’s so lengthy
Jn 3:5 say born of water born again of the spirit???
Kjv
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Born again by both water and the spirit
Cannot enter the kingdom
2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
No mention of baptism is Jn 3 really?
Jn 3:22 says they went to Jerusalem and preached the sinners prayer, “accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior “???
Or maybe Jn 3:22 John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Effects of faith & baptism!
Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!
Faith and baptism!
Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!
2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
“Faith alone” Questions
where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?
1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”
Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?
Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?
They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???
When we first believed we are saved?
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?
1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?
If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!
Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2
“Faith alone” unbiblical!