Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Hopeful]

That is the Catholic belief called 'infused righteousness', and which Luther resisted. It's a progression towards being righteous enough for God by working righteousness and being hopeful that you're righteous enough to be saved and enter the kingdom at the end of the age.

Is the man who won't "turn from" sin righteous?
Is the man who still has his own sins on him righteous?
I hope you don't say "Yes".

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, Calvinism is wrong in this regard.
God still does the choosing, there's no doubt about that.

I cannot believe that.
I can't, won't believe He creates people just to go to the lake of fire.

But he choses a person on the basis of their faith. The faith that all men are given the opportunity to receive and retain. He does not chose a person on the basis of some far off unknown divine plan of God to only let some people be saved and others be denied the opportunity to be saved.

Isn't having faith a choice?
There goes Calvinism.
Bye bye.

You're slipping back into your 'infused righteousness' thinking.
The only thing a person can 'do' to receive and retain the righteousness of God is believe in it.

Is there no action associated with that belief?
If not, the devils will all be saved.
hey believe it as much as you and I .

If a ritual or ceremony solicited the righteousness of God then there would have been no need to abandon circumcision and Sabbath keeping in order to become righteous. But as it is, NO work solicits the righteousness of God. It can only come to the humble person who realizes that and stops working to get it and casts himself on God's mercy and asks for forgiveness. That is the person who receives the imputation of God's righteousness. That is how a person becomes righteous by faith apart from works. If you think he rewards a ritual or work of righteousness with his righteousness you are serving the very works gospel condemned in scripture and which can not justify.

Faith is proven by action.
The only "works" for righteousness that Paul wrote against were the works of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

Catholicism is a works gospel in that it teaches 'infused grace' where the believer uses God's grace to become more and more righteous in anticipation of being righteous enough to be accepted into the kingdom at the end of the age. What they refer to as 'when they'll be saved'.

I never heard the term INFUSED GRACE used.
How does one become more and more righteous?
Righteous means BEING RIGHT WITH GOD.

You can't become MORE right with God.
You either are or you aren't.
How does one be RIGHTEOUS ENOUGH?
Where's the standard?

If Catholicism teaches that one could forfeit their salvation,
then doesn't that mean that they know they're saved?

I wonder what Mungo or Walpole would say.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes.

So turning from sin and being washed by the blood of Christ are prerequisite for salvation.
I agree.
Thanks be to God for the gifts of repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins to make them happen.

5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works - Romans 4:5-6

Yep, the Law is of the past.

 

[Hopeful]

Knowing the gospel is true doesn't save anybody.

Every person who has ever heard the sure testimony of the Holy Spirit knows by virtue of that word of faith that the gospel is true. It is the person who hears and retains the testimony of the Holy Spirit, trusting in it, that is saved, not just the person who was told by the Holy Spirit and convicted that it's true. Demons don't trust in the gospel that they know by simple observation is true.

That is correct.
It is the actions we take upon hearing it that prove we believe.
Demons know it is true, but won't act on it.
A sort of dead faith, as it were.

 

[Hopeful]

No, that comes from the flesh. Galatians 5:17

Thank God the flesh can be crucified, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
It is just the vessel of the Holy Ghost, after a real conversion.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, the flesh is 'reckoned' to be all those things.
That means you 'count' it as dead and, therefore, don't listen to it when it wants you to sin.

As "flesh" has no more eminence in our lives, ignoring the memories of what it once wanted gets easier by the year.
I love and thank God for making it possible to walk in the Spirit since the death and burial of my past "flesh".

 

[Hopeful]

Do you think for one moment what the demons believe translates into obedience?

Interesting conundrum...
Their belief doesn't translate into obedience.
They believe the devil's lies more.
Kinda' like Eve was deceived, though she initially did believe. (I guess?)
Real belief must indeed be retained until the end.

19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
James 2:19
No, of course their belief does not translate into obedience as if they are by definition one and the same thing. Belief does not automatically equate to obedience. But when it does we know that belief is genuine.

"When it does..." That is the key.
That is a lesson for the double-minded...eh?
Keep the faith !

 

[Hopeful]

This might be our disagreement...
Because a person tells ONE lie, does not make him a liar.

Yeah it does.

Ditto for thieves....
Uh... If you commit adultery, then you're an adulterer.

If you murder one man, you are a murderer for life.
Thank God for rebirth.

Neither do I.
One cannot be in God and be wicked.

Right.

We understand it differently, again.
DO NOT LET SIN REIGN.
If we're in God, sin does NOT reign in us...that does NOT mean we can never sin again.

As the newly reborn creature, from God's seed, never had sin in it, sin cannot reign.
Don't let sin in, and it can't reign.

There is no impurity in God or in light.
There is impurity in man.

Not if the man is in God, in the light.
The washing, atoning, sanctifying, justifying blood of Jesus Christ made us pure.

At salvation, the born again person is saved from the grip of satan...
this does not mean he will NEVER commit a sin again.

Why not?
The devil has no grip, but God does !

If you don't think you ever sin...
you don't understand purity or how pure God is or what a strong white light he is.
You're just kidding yourself.

I know I don't sin, thanks b to God !
My repentance from sin is real.

The NT tells us what to do when we sin,
which means we can sin.
If allowance is made for an action...the action is possible.

You are actually using exhortations not to commit sin to fashion an argument for sin? ?

Question: Why was there confession in the early church?
(after baptism).

Beyond the initial repentance before baptism, there wasn't.
That "rite" was instituted by sin accommodating the posers.

ALWAYS??
I think you haven't raised any kids!
LOL

If your kids don't obey you, you have lost them.

Right.
Because we MIGHT FORGET.
We might not be careful.

Amen.
And by exhorting someone else, we strengthen ourselves too.

I agree that we are not to serve sin.

"Go, and sin no more." (John 8:11)

And now this conversation must stop.

 

[Mungo]

I never heard the term INFUSED GRACE used.
How does one become more and more righteous?
Righteous means BEING RIGHT WITH GOD.

You can't become MORE right with God.
You either are or you aren't.
How does one be RIGHTEOUS ENOUGH?
Where's the standard?

If Catholicism teaches that one could forfeit their salvation,
then doesn't that mean that they know they're saved?

I wonder what Mungo or Walpole would say.

There is a lot of misunderstanding by Protestants of the Catholic position on grace and righteousness.
However I don't have time to go into it just now as we have family staying.
I'll come back to it if Walpole doesn't answer it.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a lot of misunderstanding by Protestants of the Catholic position on grace and righteousness.
However I don't have time to go into it just now as we have family staying.
I'll come back to it if Walpole doesn't answer it.

OK M.
I can't ask you to go back through the posts.
The other member and I have been having a lot of back and forth on the Catholic position of Justification.
He brought up infused grace....I never heard of this in Catholic theology, but I know what it is.
I only know about sanctifying grace and actual grace.
I believe IMPUTED grace is the Protestant teaching and they think Catholics believe in INFUSED grace (which I do not know what is meant by them, exactly).

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah it does.

If you murder one man, you are a murderer for life.
Thank God for rebirth.

Does a man steal because he's a thief,
Or is he a thief because he steals?

Right.

As the newly reborn creature, from God's seed, never had sin in it, sin cannot reign.
Don't let sin in, and it can't reign.

Not if the man is in God, in the light.
The washing, atoning, sanctifying, justifying blood of Jesus Christ made us pure.

Why not?
The devil has no grip, but God does !

I know I don't sin, thanks b to God !
My repentance from sin is real.

You are actually using exhortations not to commit sin to fashion an argument for sin? ?

Beyond the initial repentance before baptism, there wasn't.
That "rite" was instituted by sin accommodating the posers.

If your kids don't obey you, you have lost them.

Amen.
And by exhorting someone else, we strengthen ourselves too.

"Go, and sin no more." (John 8:11)

As you know H, I don't carry on for pages and pages like you guys do!
No stamina!

You know how I feel about this and I'm not going to just repeat.
I DO want to say that my kids listen to me now...but they're mature adults now.
You're very lucky if your kids listened to you their whole lives --- even when you weren't around.
You're very lucky to have had such a perfect life.
I'd envy you, except that's a sin.
And I REALLY don't like to sin.

Till next time...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I never heard the term INFUSED GRACE used.
How does one become more and more righteous?
Righteous means BEING RIGHT WITH GOD.

You can't become MORE right with God.
You either are or you aren't.
How does one be RIGHTEOUS ENOUGH?
Where's the standard?

If Catholicism teaches that one could forfeit their salvation,
then doesn't that mean that they know they're saved?

I wonder what Mungo or Walpole would say.

The teaching goes that you are given God's grace to use to become more and more righteous in behavior and that is the righteousness that will be used to judge you worthy of the kingdom.

This is the Catholic teaching that Luther resisted after being enlightened by the scriptures that the declaration of righteousness that we receive is the perfect righteous standing of Christ and his obedience not ours.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The teaching goes that you are given God's grace to use to become more and more righteous in behavior and that is the righteousness that will be used to judge you worthy of the kingdom.

This is the Catholic teaching that Luther resisted after being enlightened by the scriptures that the declaration of righteousness that we receive is the perfect righteous standing of Christ and his obedience not ours.

...and so your righteous standing with God is complete and perfect from the moment you believe and is not dependent on how righteous you become in response to God's grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

The teaching goes that you are given God's grace to use to become more and more righteous in behavior and that is the righteousness that will be used to judge you worthy of the kingdom.

This is the Catholic teaching that Luther resisted after being enlightened by the scriptures that the declaration of righteousness that we receive is the perfect righteous standing of Christ and his obedience not ours.

Hi J,
I answered the above.
You must have missed it....
See my post no. 1303

 

[JLB]

That is correct.
It is the actions we take upon hearing it that prove we believe.
Demons know it is true, but won't act on it.
A sort of dead faith, as it were.

I call it demonic believing.

The demons believe Jesus is Lord but they don’t obey Him as their Lord.

They continue to obey Satan.

Believing without obeying is demonic believing.

That’s why it says believe in your heart and confess with your mouth.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we believe and therefore obey the Gospel.

That’s why Paul calls it the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

James makes it clear that Abraham was justified by works.

Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage

The work or action that obedience requires; the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21


The “work” or action that Abraham did was to obey God to offer his son on the altar.

He received faith when he heard God command him to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

The faith he received from hearing God’s word was “made alive” when he obeyed God to offer his son on the altar.


Otherwise, without the corresponding action of obedience, faith remains dead, (dormant, inactive) and therefore unable to accomplish the divine result of justification.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26





JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi J,
I answered the above.
You must have missed it....
See my post no. 1303

I read that post.

It's clear to me that you are Protestant in theology but refuse to dismiss Catholicism as a works gospel religion. I'm trying to show you that infused grace, the theology of the Catholic church, is a works gospel. It's a religion where you use the grace of God to become more and more righteous in order to have the righteousness that God requires you to have to be saved.

Catholic theology fails to recognize the difference between being legally declared righteous and actually being righteous in your behavior. Your legal standing with God is based on the perfect righteousness of Christ and that is the perfect righteousness that you have to have to be saved. That is the righteousness that comes from God is given to a person as a free gift apart from the performance and value of righteous rituals and works. In infused grace theology you use God's grace to do righteous rituals and works and that is the righteousness, the righteousness of your life, that you present to God in order to be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read that post.

It's clear to me that you are Protestant in theology but refuse to dismiss Catholicism as a works gospel religion. I'm trying to show you that infused grace, the theology of the Catholic church, is a works gospel. It's a religion where you use the grace of God to become more and more righteous in order to have the righteousness that God requires you to have to be saved.

Catholic theology fails to recognize the difference between being legally declared righteous and actually being righteous in your behavior. Your legal standing with God is based on the perfect righteousness of Christ and that is the perfect righteousness that you have to have to be saved. That is the righteousness that comes from God is given to a person as a free gift apart from the performance and value of righteous rituals and works. In infused grace theology you use God's grace to do righteous rituals and works and that is the righteousness, the righteousness of your life, that you present to God in order to be saved.

I know what you're doing J.
I understand.
I just don't see this.
I posted to two Catholic members for whom I have great respect ,,, they know more than I do.
Let's see if they respond .... they aren't here every day.

It interests me to also have more information.
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's wait till one of them responds. I could also get into it more but you said you don't like deep theology....

Let me get the post where I wrote to them...

Mungo
Walpole

 

[GodsGrace]

I read that post.

It's clear to me that you are Protestant in theology but refuse to dismiss Catholicism as a works gospel religion. I'm trying to show you that infused grace, the theology of the Catholic church, is a works gospel. It's a religion where you use the grace of God to become more and more righteous in order to have the righteousness that God requires you to have to be saved.

Catholic theology fails to recognize the difference between being legally declared righteous and actually being righteous in your behavior. Your legal standing with God is based on the perfect righteousness of Christ and that is the perfect righteousness that you have to have to be saved. That is the righteousness that comes from God is given to a person as a free gift apart from the performance and value of righteous rituals and works. In infused grace theology you use God's grace to do righteous rituals and works and that is the righteousness, the righteousness of your life, that you present to God in order to be saved.

See post 1303 and 1311

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I posted to two Catholic members for whom I have great respect ,,, they know more than I do.
Let's see if they respond .... they aren't here every day.

It interests me to also have more information.
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's wait till one of them responds.

The things I've been posting are from Luther's experience of receiving the revelation of the righteousness that comes from God and by which a man lives. Him being a Catholic monk, he knew that the theology of the Catholic church contrasted sharply with what God showed him in the scriptures about the righteousness that comes from God that was not dependent on your works. Let's see if they maintain that stark contrast between historical Catholic teaching and Luther's revelation. I predict they won't and will get rather 'Protestant' in their response.