Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[jaybo]

I'm not right in Firenze or I would have made an effort to meet up with you.
I wanted to tell you that I speed when I go there and it takes me about 1 hr 15 mIn. doing about 140km/hr.
If I went slower, it would take about 2 hours.
But the weather even by me is very mild and nice and today was very sunny.
You'll just have to make another trip!
Did you go to Fiesole?
What a beautiful ride.

I don't think we went to Fiesole. I wasn't doing the driving.

I looked it up online. We should go there next time!

We did go to a church near Firenze where they keep bees. (I was a beekeeper at one point in my life). The hive had a front duplicating the front of the church.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think we went to Fiesole. I wasn't doing the driving.

I looked it up online. We should go there next time!

We did go to a church near Firenze where they keep bees. (I was a beekeeper at one point in my life). The hive had a front duplicating the front of the church.

Never been there.
There's also a beautiful American Cemetary for Soldiers near the south of Firenze. Can't remember the name.
Look that up too.
The ride to Fiesole is just beautiful.
And then you could see the whole city from up there. (but I still like Pza. Michelangelo the best).
How about where Leonardo da Vinci was born?
The town is Vinci. Very close. Also beautiful.

 

[jaybo]

Never been there.
There's also a beautiful American Cemetary for Soldiers near the south of Firenze. Can't remember the name.
Look that up too.
The ride to Fiesole is just beautiful.
And then you could see the whole city from up there. (but I still like Pza. Michelangelo the best).
How about where Leonardo da Vinci was born?
The town is Vinci. Very close. Also beautiful.

We should probably continue this in a private discussion since it has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, but repentance won't make you righteous.

I think we do agree that God is the only source of righteousness.
But if men do not act on what He has provided in order to attain that righteousness, they won't be made righteous.
That would be different if Calvinism were true, wherein God just picks you to be righteous.
But it isn't, so a choice has to be made to attain it.
And then the God ordained steps must still be taken.

 

[Hopeful]

That is the works gospel that can not justify.

The ONLY way you can be righteous enough to be able to enter the kingdom is to be given the righteousness of God as a free gift of his grace through faith.

Who receives that gift?
Isn't it the man who turns from sin and is washed by the blood of Christ?

 

[Hopeful]

The devils do not believe in the blood for the forgiveness of sin. They only know it exists.

If one knows it exists, they believe it is true.

 

[Hopeful]

You keep un-rightly dividing the scriptures away from the whole counsel of scripture. You can't just decide you're going to ignore Galatians 5:17. I mean, you are ignoring it but we're not going to.

"Every word of scripture" declares that the flesh has been crucified with Christ. (Gal 5:24)
Destroyed. (Rom 6:6)
Circumcised. (Col 2:11)
Of no effect. (Gal 5:16)

You have to take the whole counsel and context of scripture into consideration so you don't misinterpret your scriptures to mean true Christians do not sin and never have since believing.

You posit then, that God's seed can bring forth liars, adulterers, and thieves. (1 John 3:9)
I can't agree.

 

[Hopeful]

The only thing the Christian has to do to remain righteous in God's righteousness is keep believing and trusting in the forgiveness of God.

Doesn't belief translate into obedience?
I know disobedience is translated into disbelief...
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
(Heb 10:39)

 

[Hopeful]

You were challenging the work of water baptism as not being a work of the law and, therefore, not among the works of the works gospel. But the ceremonial cleansing of water is in fact a matter of Mosaic law.

But the OT washings were not in the name of Jesus Christ or for the remission of sins.

Work not being able to justify means any and all work, not just certain work, because it is not by work, but rather through faith in the blood that one receives the righteousness that comes from God and which is the only righteousness able to qualify you to enter the kingdom of God. The righteousness of your work, even if prompted by faith, is not good enough. Only God's righteousness received through faith in the blood is good enough.

Paul only wrote against the works of the Law: essentially, circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc.
They will not make a man clean or holy.
They will not sanctify or justify anyone.
Repenting of sin and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins will make a man clean, holy, sanctified, and justified.
Thank God for His incredible means of salvation. !

 

[Hopeful]

That's called 'infused righteousness' (but with your false idea of sinless perfection added to it). That is in stark contrast to the imputation of God's righteousness whereby you are counted righteous with a righteousness not of your work, but rather as a gift of God. And which effects a justification that is immediate and everlasting and not dependent on whether you use it or not but on whether you keep believing and trusting in it or not.

Both would be a gift from God.
It is His righteousness to give as He sees fit.
But He will not give it to someone intent on remaining unrighteous.

Though, certainly, it cannot be received without consequence to one's behavior.

Finally !
Something that is true.

 

[Hopeful]

I was never perfect Hopeful.
I'm not perfect now and I don't think I ever will be.

Then God's seed CAN bring forth liars, thieves, and adulterers?
Were that true, I would expect apple trees to bring forth the occasional pumpkin !

Whoa.
We're as sin free as God is?
That's quite a mouthful - and that's all I'll say re this.

Do you really think one can be "in God" and import some kind of wickedness?
I don't.

We can be "free from sin" but only in the sense that we are free from the BONDAGE to sin.
Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
Paul is telling the Romans not to let sin REIGN, COMMAND, their bodies -
he's not saying that they will never sin again.

He said that verse just after telling us how to destroy the old man and be raised with Christ from His burial so we can walk in newness of life.
Sin was an old way of life.
You are misreading Rom 6:12.
It is not "Therefore do not let sin in your mortal body reign so that you obey its lusts,"
If you don't allow sin into yourself it cannot reign.

I agree.
We do not have to be perfect to remain in the light.

There's a twist...
I wrote that we don't have to be a perfect speller or typist to remain in Christ or in the light.
We do, however, have to remain pure, as there is no impurity in either Christ or the light.

Could you post some verse that states that if I sin it would mean that I never repented?
Really. I can't think of any.

Figure it out.
What did you repent of?
Sin?
More sin shows the repentance was a lie to God.
1 John 3:9 should be enough evidence for you..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is free from sin."
Rom 6:18..."Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
Rom 6:2:22..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

No, Hopeful.
Jesus told the Apostles they could forgive man's sins.
Sins. This means AFTER Jesus' ascension the Apostles could forgive man's sins the way Jesus did because He passed this authority to them. He breathed on them...representing the Holy Spirit.

We too can forgive those who sin against us.
In fact, we must if our own forgiveness is to be true.

Our having to forgive others is also true but a different idea.
Matthew 5:23-24

Jesus was talking to OT, non-Christians there.

We are required to forgive others,
And we must ask God to forgive us our sins...
Matthew 6:14

The forgiveness of Christians' sin is done at our water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)

I agree with the above.
But I must say, there sure are a lot of posers!

Yes, there are.

But you see Hopeful, if God says WAIT A WHILE BEFORE GOING IN THE POOL,
It clearly means that some men will go into the pool without waiting.

Not necessarily.
Some "children" love and trust their "parents" enough to obey them

Will they quit doing that immediately after being told?

They better !

I see.
So I use excuses for sinning -

? Is that something I said?

And you make up reasons why Paul repeats to Christians not to sin.

How many times can you tell your kids to be careful when they drive away?
Are they not careful?
How many times do you tell your husband that you love him?
Does he not know?
Repetition helps keep the message in the fronts of our minds.

Good point. And what I've been saying.
We could only SERVE ONE MASTER.
We are not SERVING satan because we commit a sin.
We are serving satan when we live a life of sin.

You are not serving God if you commit a sin.
You are serving sin.

If we no longer have the sin nature in us (but suppressed) then what is it that makes us sin?
(not you of course).

That made no sense.
Do you mean..."If we * have the sin nature in us (but suppressed) then what is it that makes us sin?"
We don't have a sin nature since our death with Christ and our being raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
It is called a new creature. (2 Cor 5:17)
If you still commit sin, you did not turn from sin and join with Christ in His death, burial, and having been raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)
Your old man is still alive and taking you to destruction.

I Forget what I said, but I do agree with the above.
Just following rules will not save anyone.
(without faith...faith is necessary).

Yes.

So, IOW, we DO have to keep all the rules/laws/requirements?
I thought you said the Law didn't work.

Just those that show we love God with all our heart and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves.
The Law of liberty.

Looks like we can't even commit one sin or we'll be lost again or
we were never saved to begin with.

Agreed.

Doesn't sound like the good news.

It is good news if you despise hurting the One who died to free you from serving sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think we do agree that God is the only source of righteousness.
But if men do not act on what He has provided in order to attain that righteousness, they won't be made righteous.

That is the Catholic belief called 'infused righteousness', and which Luther resisted. It's a progression towards being righteous enough for God by working righteousness and being hopeful that you're righteous enough to be saved and enter the kingdom at the end of the age.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That would be different if Calvinism were true, wherein God just picks you to be righteous.
But it isn't, so a choice has to be made to attain it.

Yes, Calvinism is wrong in this regard.
God still does the choosing, there's no doubt about that. But he choses a person on the basis of their faith. The faith that all men are given the opportunity to receive and retain. He does not chose a person on the basis of some far off unknown divine plan of God to only let some people be saved and others be denied the opportunity to be saved.

And then the God ordained steps must still be taken.

You're slipping back into your 'infused righteousness' thinking.
The only thing a person can 'do' to receive and retain the righteousness of God is believe in it.

If a ritual or ceremony solicited the righteousness of God then there would have been no need to abandon circumcision and Sabbath keeping in order to become righteous. But as it is, NO work solicits the righteousness of God. It can only come to the humble person who realizes that and stops working to get it and casts himself on God's mercy and asks for forgiveness. That is the person who receives the imputation of God's righteousness. That is how a person becomes righteous by faith apart from works. If you think he rewards a ritual or work of righteousness with his righteousness you are serving the very works gospel condemned in scripture and which can not justify.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who receives that gift?
Isn't it the man who turns from sin and is washed by the blood of Christ?

Yes.

5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works - Romans 4:5-6

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one knows it exists, they believe it is true.

Knowing the gospel is true doesn't save anybody.

Every person who has ever heard the sure testimony of the Holy Spirit knows by virtue of that word of faith that the gospel is true. It is the person who hears and retains the testimony of the Holy Spirit, trusting in it, that is saved, not just the person who was told by the Holy Spirit and convicted that it's true. Demons don't trust in the gospel that they know by simple observation is true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You posit then, that God's seed can bring forth liars, adulterers, and thieves. (1 John 3:9)
I can't agree.

No, that comes from the flesh. Galatians 5:17

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Every word of scripture" declares that the flesh has been crucified with Christ. (Gal 5:24)
Destroyed. (Rom 6:6)
Circumcised. (Col 2:11)
Of no effect. (Gal 5:16)

Yes, the flesh is 'reckoned' to be all those things.
That means you 'count' it as dead and, therefore, don't listen to it when it wants you to sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Doesn't belief translate into obedience?

Do you think for one moment what the demons believe translates into obedience?

19You believe that God is one.g Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
James 2:19

No, of course their belief does not translate into obedience as if they are by definition one and the same thing. Belief does not automatically equate to obedience. But when it does we know that belief is genuine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How is Catholicism a works gospel?

Catholicism is a works gospel in that it teaches 'infused grace' where the believer uses God's grace to become more and more righteous in anticipation of being righteous enough to be accepted into the kingdom at the end of the age. What they refer to as 'when they'll be saved'.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then God's seed CAN bring forth liars, thieves, and adulterers?
Were that true, I would expect apple trees to bring forth the occasional pumpkin !

This might be our disagreement...
Because a person tells ONE lie, does not make him a liar.
Ditto for thieves....
Uh... If you commit adultery, then you're an adulterer.

Do you really think one can be "in God" and import some kind of wickedness?
I don't.

Neither do I.
One cannot be in God and be wicked.

He said that verse just after telling us how to destroy the old man and be raised with Christ from His burial so we can walk in newness of life.
Sin was an old way of life.
You are misreading Rom 6:12.
It is not "Therefore do not let sin in your mortal body reign so that you obey its lusts,"
If you don't allow sin into yourself it cannot reign.

We understand it differently, again.
DO NOT LET SIN REIGN.
If we're in God, sin does NOT reign in us...that does NOT mean we can never sin again.

Reign
noun
the period during which a sovereign occupies the throne.
royal rule or authority; sovereignty.
dominating power or influence:the reign of law.

verb (used without object)
to possess or exercise sovereign power or authority.
to hold the position and name of sovereign without exercising the ruling power.
to have control, rule, or influence of any kind.

There's a twist...
I wrote that we don't have to be a perfect speller or typist to remain in Christ or in the light.
We do, however, have to remain pure, as there is no impurity in either Christ or the light.

There is no impurity in God or in light.
There is impurity in man.
At salvation, the born again person is saved from the grip of satan...
this does not mean he will NEVER commit a sin again.
If you don't think you ever sin...
you don't understand purity or how pure God is or what a strong white light he is.
You're just kidding yourself.
The NT tells us what to do when we sin,
which means we can sin.
If allowance is made for an action...the action is possible.

Figure it out.
What did you repent of?
Sin?
More sin shows the repentance was a lie to God.
1 John 3:9 should be enough evidence for you..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is free from sin."
Rom 6:18..."Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
Rom 6:2:22..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

Question: Why was there confession in the early church?
(after baptism).

We too can forgive those who sin against us.
In fact, we must if our own forgiveness is to be true.

Jesus was talking to OT, non-Christians there.

The forgiveness of Christians' sin is done at our water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)

Yes, there are.

Not necessarily.
Some "children" love and trust their "parents" enough to obey them

ALWAYS??
I think you haven't raised any kids!
LOL

They better !

? Is that something I said?

How many times can you tell your kids to be careful when they drive away?
Are they not careful?
How many times do you tell your husband that you love him?
Does he not know?
Repetition helps keep the message in the fronts of our minds.

Right.
Because we MIGHT FORGET.
We might not be careful.

You are not serving God if you commit a sin.
You are serving sin.

That made no sense.
Do you mean..."If we * have the sin nature in us (but suppressed) then what is it that makes us sin?"
We don't have a sin nature since our death with Christ and our being raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
It is called a new creature. (2 Cor 5:17)
If you still commit sin, you did not turn from sin and join with Christ in His death, burial, and having been raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)
Your old man is still alive and taking you to destruction.

Yes.

Just those that show we love God with all our heart and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves.
The Law of liberty.

Agreed.

It is good news if you despise hurting the One who died to free you from serving sin.

I agree that we are not to serve sin.

And now this conversation must stop.