Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[JLB]

Yes. He was justified by works.

Does that mean he was made righteous by works or shown to be righteous by works?

I believe he was justified by his action of obedience.

My opinion of Abraham at that time in his life was that he was walking with God and was indeed righteous, (right with God), so by his obedience, the obedience of faith he continued to be righteous.

If by your definition of justification means “shown to be righteous” then I would not argue that Abraham continued to be shown to be righteous because he obeyed the voice of the Lord.


Which brings us to this verse…


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


Abraham continued to be righteous, because he continued to obey the voice of the Lord; he practiced righteousness.


Do you believe Abraham would have been righteous if he disobeyed God?



JLB

 

[Mungo]

What is it about this that Luther resisted?

I suspect nothing. Because apparently the Catholic church did not teach, or at least practice, in Luther's day the Biblical truth about the righteousness that comes from God, and that the righteous live by faith. Or else he would have had no basis for an argument. But as it is we know he did.

What did Luther actually say/write about this and where is the evidence for that?

 

[Mungo]

If there was any truth to this there would have been no grounds for Luther's condemnation of indulgences in the Catholic church.

Rewriting history is nothing more than lying.

kindly read what was written.
The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.

That there were abuses is admitted. But they were not the outright selling of indulgences.
Please stop accusing me of lying and re-writing history.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please stop accusing me of lying and re-writing history.

I'm not accusing you. I'm not at all surprised that the Catholic church wants to put a spin on it's history of indulgences. I'm confident you had nothing to do with that.

Luther couldn't have been all wrong for the Catholic church for them to make changes regarding indulgences (granting any indulgence is wrong) and for it to now acknowledge legal righteousness, at least in word. I say in word because Catholics openly say they aren't saved now but have yet to be saved when their lives are examined on the Day of Judgement. If the Catholic church truly understood and believed and embraced Luther's revelation of the legal righteousness that comes from God which has nothing to do with one's works they'd know that the believer is saved now, not waiting to be saved based on whether or not they submitted to God's infused righteousness making them righteous and fit for heaven.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What did Luther actually say/write about this and where is the evidence for that?

I found this article to be very honest. It's a short and concise telling of Luther's revelation about righteousness and faith and how it contrasted with Catholic thinking of the day.

Luther's Breakthrough in Romans - Lutheran Reformation

After years of much prayer, meditation, and struggle, Luther discovered the true meaning of God’s Word: “Then finally God had mercy on me, and I began to understand that the righteousness of God is a gift of God by which a righteous man lives, namely faith."

lutheranreformation.org

Your thoughtful consideration of it would be appreciated.

 

[Mungo]

I found this article to be very honest. It's a short and concise telling of Luther's revelation about righteousness and faith and how it contrasted with Catholic thinking of the day.

Luther's Breakthrough in Romans - Lutheran Reformation

After years of much prayer, meditation, and struggle, Luther discovered the true meaning of God’s Word: “Then finally God had mercy on me, and I began to understand that the righteousness of God is a gift of God by which a righteous man lives, namely faith."

lutheranreformation.org

Your thoughtful consideration of it would be appreciated.

I don't see how anything has changed in Catholic thinking.

As I suggested earlier the difference between Protestant and Catholic is the meaning of "legal" righteousness.

As I understand it Protestants indulge in a legal fiction. God says we are legally righteous when we are not actually righteous.

For Catholics God says we are legally righteous because we are righteous - because has made us righteous.

 

[Mungo]

I'm not accusing you. I'm not at all surprised that the Catholic church wants to put a spin on it's history of indulgences. I'm confident you had nothing to do with that.

Luther couldn't have been all wrong for the Catholic church for them to make changes regarding indulgences (granting any indulgence is wrong) and for it to now acknowledge legal righteousness, at least in word. I say in word because Catholics openly say they aren't saved now but have yet to be saved when their lives are examined on the Day of Judgement. If the Catholic church truly understood and believed and embraced Luther's revelation of the legal righteousness that comes from God which has nothing to do with one's works they'd know that the believer is saved now, not waiting to be saved based on whether or not they submitted to God's infused righteousness making them righteous and fit for heaven.

Leaving aside indulgences which are a side issue, you seem to be advocating "Once Saved Always Saved" here.
I hope I am misunderstanding you on that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see how anything has changed in Catholic thinking.

As I suggested earlier the difference between Protestant and Catholic is the meaning of "legal" righteousness.

As I understand it Protestants indulge in a legal fiction. God says we are legally righteous when we are not actually righteous.

For Catholics God says we are legally righteous because we are righteous - because has made us righteous.

I think you're the one that is misunderstanding. We ARE righteous the moment we believe. It's not a fiction. It's a reality that starts the moment a person places their trust in God. Romans 8:31-34.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Leaving aside indulgences which are a side issue, you seem to be advocating "Once Saved Always Saved" here.
I hope I am misunderstanding you on that.

No, it has nothing to do with that. Nothing whatsoever.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see how anything has changed in Catholic thinking.

When I get back to a PC I will quote directly from the article I posted and you can either defend or reject what the author said infused grace means in regard to justification.

 

[GodsGrace]

I detest overthought, long, wordy explanations that end up not explaining anything.

I'll go as deep as you want. But I want to do that in short and concise explanations. Supply as much background information as necessary, but the explanation itself should be short and concise. Lengthy discourse does not equate to accurate and correct discourse. Quite the opposite, I think.

I think a big problem here is that PROBABLY (since I haven't read what you're reading re Luther) is that the word JUSTIFICATION is always used when there's writing about grace in the Catholic teachings. Instead we understand Justification to be entirely separate from Sanctification. The Catholics practically treat it as if it's the same, especially in the earlier writings from the Council of Trent and the ideas of Luther.

In a General Audience discourse in the early 2000s Pope Benedict touched on this subject of works and grace.
He uses the word Justification...

let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God's eyes?

The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as "refuse", in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul's transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ.

Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters:

Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God's eyes.
source: https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119.html

 

[GodsGrace]

Sanctifying grace and actual grace are two types of grace.
Infused grace is the way God gives us that grace.

Infused Grace from Catholic Answers
Infused grace is a term often used by Catholic theologians to describe in metaphorical terms how God “pours” grace into our souls or, to put it another way, “fills” us with his grace. The word “infused” denotes the idea of something being “poured into” and is seen most commonly in the Latin formula gratia infusia. This language is symbolic, of course, but it is certainly biblical. Some Protestant critics of the Catholic Church criticize the concept of infused grace as being “unbiblical,” but as the following verses show, the concept is completely biblical.
“You are the fairest of the sons of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you for ever” (Psalm 45:2).
“For the palace will be forsaken . . . until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest” (Isaiah 32:14-15).

There are more scriptural quotes after that.

I was thinking about this.

Actually, infused grace sounds better.
Infused grace is the grace being given to us.
Imputed grace means we are using Jesus' grace on our behalf.

This is the same idea as the Catholic position which teaches that a person is actually made clean from inside out.
The Protestant position is that a person's sins are "covered" up by Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not quite fair that about selling indulgences.
Just for the record - from a Catholic Answers article on myths about indulgences.
Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.

The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.

Yes, this is true about the Council of Trent.
Due to Luther's revolt the church HAD to do something about its practices at that time.
It certainly did want to remove abuses.

Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.

One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."
(My emboldening)

What could the above mean?
I certainly don't understand it.
The church was selling indulgences...
I don't know how else to say this.
Churches were being built, the Vatican needed money,
this was a way of getting it.
People were paying to have the sins of their loved ones forgiven, persons that were already dead.

Mostly the indulgences had to do with getting persons out of purgatory.
Money was paid to cut down on the time spent there.

Poor persons were also paying for the above....so giving to charitable foundations could have been ONE of the ways that an indulgence was granted.

And HOW is an indulgence granted?
Unless it's a special indulgence, (Plenary) I could make one when I want...no granting necessary.

The church cannot deny this.
It could try to explain it away, that's about all.

You didn't list your source for the two "myths".
I can't really tell where it comes from.
(not that I know all sources).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see how anything has changed in Catholic thinking.

Mungo ,
Any changes from this description in Luther’s day of the Catholic Church’s understanding of ‘infused grace’ and what they say about it today?

It’s not as though the church in Luther’s day had never read the Book of Romans and Paul’s ardent statements regarding justification by faith alone. The prevailing teaching of the Church was “infused grace,” or the grace God puts in the sinner so that he might become righteous. The Christian life and faith was thus heavily focused upon obedience and behavior; it was a “gradual healing process” in which the sinner “starts to become” righteous as “God creates a new will in man so that he begins to fulfill the Law.” [3] In other words, they held that Christ and the grace of God make salvation a possibility for the believer. At the final judgment God will decide if the Christian has used and done justice to God’s gift of grace.

Luther's Breakthrough in Romans - Lutheran Reformation

After years of much prayer, meditation, and struggle, Luther discovered the true meaning of God’s Word: “Then finally God had mercy on me, and I began to understand that the righteousness of God is a gift of God by which a righteous man lives, namely faith."

lutheranreformation.org

 

[Hopeful]

The scriptures plainly teach us what to do if we sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

If we have just been "cleansed of all sin", (1 John 1:7), we can say we have no sin.
Thanks be to God !

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confession generally precedes water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Matt 3:6, Mark 1:5)

The scriptures also teach us what to do if a brother sins against us.
Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

I suppose it is the same for sisters.
Of course if they are sinning they are not my brother or sisters in the Lord, as they have a different father.

Does your god forgive you if you sin?

My God sent His Son here to free us from sin. (John 8:32-34)
Jesus was successful.

 

[Hopeful]

It's not realistic. It defies actual Christian experience. Besides the plain fact it ignores everything the Bible says about starting out as a babe in Christ and growing up into the image and stature of Christ.

It is, in fact, impossible...for people who continue to walk in the flesh instead of the Spirit.
It is written...
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." Romans 13:14
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:27

God is perfect. That's why we are given his righteousness.

Thank God for making us perfect with that righteousness !
I can't understand how anyone who has been given the righteousness of God can still consider themselves imperfect.

You're still lingering in your Catholic infused grace theology except you just skipped the gradual part.

Scripture please.
Rebirth of God's seed is instantaneous.

You will be presenting YOUR righteousness on the Day of Judgment deceived into thinking it's perfect, while we will be presenting the perfect righteousness of God on that Day.

Whose righteousness will the sinners be presenting?
Their father the devil's?
It is written..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:10)

 

[Hopeful]

Legal Righteousness: Protestants equate this to Justification. It is extrinsic to man and is acquired solely by God’s decree. God declares a man to be righteousness, whether he is truly righteous or not.

God is not a liar.
If He gives you His righteousness, you are righteous.

 

[Hopeful]

Sure.
The above was 500 years ago!
The CC was selling indulgences back then.
This was Wrong ant the CC knows this.
Denominations are allowed to change and get better.

The Nazarene church taught perfection when I was attending, many years ago. Like what Hopeful believes. Seems Wesley thought this was possible. They have since changed this position, but it's still considered a holiness church.

Let's leave the 1500s behind and get with the program!!

Unfortunately, Wesley changed his belief that whoever is reborn of God's seed lives perfectly sinless, before he died.

 

[Hopeful]

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Was this sheep who became lost one of His sheep of was this sheep never saved to begin with; being a demonic sheep.

Consider Jesus' audience, Jews of the OT.
They were not yet aware of freedom from sin.
Anyone who comes to Christ was "lost", but will be welcomed with loving arms if they repent .
Thanks be to God !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Infused grace is the grace being given to us.
Imputed grace means we are using Jesus' grace on our behalf.

If you just read the emboldened parts it will summarize the difference between how Catholics view justification and Luther's revelation of justification:

(emphasis mine)

The prevailing teaching of the Church was “infused grace,” or the grace God puts in the sinner so that he might become righteous. The Christian life and faith was thus heavily focused upon obedience and behavior; it was a “gradual healing process” in which the sinner “starts to become” righteous as “God creates a new will in man so that he begins to fulfill the Law.” [3] In other words, they held that Christ and the grace of God make salvation a possibility for the believer. At the final judgment God will decide if the Christian has used and done justice to God’s gift of grace.[4]

the prevailing understanding of the day was that God’s grace merely gave man the ability to become righteous before God and faith was the active work of the believer who improved and progressed in his standing before God by his obedience and behavior. Luther’s breakthrough was that God justifies the sinner not by giving him the ability to become righteous but by crediting the holiness, obedience, and goodness of Christ to him as righteousness.

From:

Luther's Breakthrough in Romans - Lutheran Reformation

After years of much prayer, meditation, and struggle, Luther discovered the true meaning of God’s Word: “Then finally God had mercy on me, and I began to understand that the righteousness of God is a gift of God by which a righteous man lives, namely faith."

lutheranreformation.org

Basically, Catholics use God's grace to gradually produce the righteousness that they hope will be sufficient for them to be saved at the final judgment.

Meanwhile, Luther's revelation from the scriptures was that the righteousness that the believer receives that will save him at the final judgment is the imputed righteousness of Jesus himself, not worked for or gradually developed in the believer, but given to him as a free gift of his grace when they first believe.

Have today's Catholics adopted Luther's view of justification and abandoned the righteousness of their works as the source of justification? From talking to Catholics online I don't think so. But I think they will tell you they have when you ask them directly about it.

Hopefully, now, you can see why I say Catholicism is a subtle and deceptive works gospel.