Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you show where the Law says to get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?
I can't even find the word "baptize" in the OT.

The identification of baptism is there, just not by name, specifically. 1 Corinthians 10:2 refers to an example.

The point is, you are erroneously making baptism something righteous you do to add to your list of righteous things you must do to be righteous enough to enter into the kingdom of God. That's the works gospel of self righteousness. Even if the righteousness you perform was enabled by God. But that is not adequate because that is hindered by the desires of the flesh that you still possess and, therefore, is not perfect. And never will be, no matter how confident Catholic doctrine, for example, says it will be eventually.

There's only one righteousness perfect enough to allow entry into the kingdom of God - the righteousness of the One and only perfectly obedient person, Jesus Christ. A righteousness imputed to us a free gift of God's grace through faith, apart from the working of righteous works and rituals.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we are still discussing baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, don't you think that having no sin is righteousness defined?

Yes, and since no one has that, even those of us in Christ, because of the flesh, the only sinless righteousness we can possess is the righteousness of the One and only perfectly sinless righteous person, Jesus Christ, imputed to us as a gift of God's grace when we believe in and receive God's pardon.

 

[Hopeful]

Christ, the real gospel, scripture do not concur

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy
Thanks

Men won't get any mercy without repenting from sin.

 

[Hopeful]

...in the hope that doing that makes you righteous.

How can anything make you righteous when you have already been made righteous by turning from sin, getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

That is the important part of the argument you are leaving off. This is not a prohibition against obeying the commands of God, but rather a prohibition against obeying the commands of God in order to become righteous before God.

By obeying the commandments of God, men can be made righteous.

In your list only 'believing' solicits the only measure of righteousness that will get you into the kingdom of God- Christ's righteousness. That righteousness - the perfect righteousness of God himself- can only be received as a free gift of God's grace through believing to the person who is humble enough to acknowledge that's the only righteousness that will meet the requirements of a perfectly righteous God.

The devils believe that, but will not be saved.

It's only a sit-on-your-hands gospel insofar as receiving the only standard of righteousness God will accept- the righteousness that Christ's sacrifice of perfect obedience worked for us on our behalf and which is given to us As a free gift of God's grace. That is the Sabbath rest from work that a person must enter into to enter into the kingdom of God.

Belief demands action.
How can a man say he believes God, but won't act on that belief?
Sounds like Calvinism

 

[Hopeful]

The identification of baptism is there, just not by name, specifically. 1 Corinthians 10:2 refers to an example.

Not at all, as the name of Jesus Christ isn't even mentioned.

The point is, you are erroneously making baptism something righteous you do to add to your list of righteous things you must do to be righteous enough to enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus did say they who are baptized will be saved, (Mark 16:16), so does that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins happen 2 or 3 years after "being made righteous"?
If they are righteous why wash away the past sins?

That's the works gospel of self righteousness. Even if the righteousness you perform was enabled by God.

If it is enabled by God, (which it is), how can it make "me" righteous?
It is His righteousness in me doing the good deeds.
But if I don't turn from sin and wash away the old sins, He will not reside in me to do the deeds.
We have a part to play in our own salvation.

But that is not adequate because that is hindered by the desires of the flesh that you still possess and, therefore, is not perfect.

Your idea runs counter to Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
You are describing those that are NOT Christ's.

And never will be, no matter how confident Catholic doctrine, for example, says it will be eventually.

I hope they will one day come to love God.

There's only one righteousness perfect enough to allow entry into the kingdom of God - the righteousness of the One and only perfectly obedient person, Jesus Christ. A righteousness imputed to us a free gift of God's grace through faith, apart from the working of righteous works and rituals.

He is not the only one anymore.
Thanks be to God for the gift of repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Things those who desire righteousness must do to attain righteousness.
And for the gift of the Holy Ghost...and rebirth from God's seed...and a few dozen other things we must do to remain righteous.

Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, and since no one has that, even those of us in Christ, because of the flesh, the only sinless righteousness we can possess is the righteousness of the One and only perfectly sinless righteous person, Jesus Christ, imputed to us as a gift of God's grace when we believe in and receive God's pardon.

There is no sin "in Christ", so your POV cannot be true.
Those who have submitted to God have crucified the flesh, so "flesh" has no impact on life in Christ.
Your POV is without repentance from sin, so is not of God..
Jesus was the first sinless person, and He is our example.
It is written..."He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." (1 John 2:6)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Men won't get any mercy without repenting from sin.

Yes, but repentance won't make you righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By obeying the commandments of God, men can be made righteous.

That is the works gospel that can not justify.

The ONLY way you can be righteous enough to be able to enter the kingdom is to be given the righteousness of God as a free gift of his grace through faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The devils believe that, but will not be saved.

The devils do not believe in the blood for the forgiveness of sin. They only know it exists.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who have submitted to God have crucified the flesh, so "flesh" has no impact on life in Christ.

You keep un-rightly dividing the scriptures away from the whole counsel of scripture. You can't just decide you're going to ignore Galatians 5:17. I mean, you are ignoring it but we're not going to.

You have to take the whole counsel and context of scripture into consideration so you don't misinterpret your scriptures to mean true Christians do not sin and never have since believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...and a few dozen other things we must do to remain righteous.

The only thing the Christian has to do to remain righteous in God's righteousness is keep believing and trusting in the forgiveness of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not at all, as the name of Jesus Christ isn't even mentioned.

You were challenging the work of water baptism as not being a work of the law and, therefore, not among the works of the works gospel. But the ceremonial cleansing of water is in fact a matter of Mosaic law.

Work not being able to justify means any and all work, not just certain work, because it is not by work, but rather through faith in the blood that one receives the righteousness that comes from God and which is the only righteousness able to qualify you to enter the kingdom of God. The righteousness of your work, even if prompted by faith, is not good enough. Only God's righteousness received through faith in the blood is good enough.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If it is enabled by God, (which it is), how can it make "me" righteous?
It is His righteousness in me doing the good deeds.

That's called 'infused righteousness' (but with your false idea of sinless perfection added to it). That is in stark contrast to the imputation of God's righteousness whereby you are counted righteous with a righteousness not of your work, but rather as a gift of God. And which effects a justification that is immediate and everlasting and not dependent on whether you use it or not but on whether you keep believing and trusting in it or not. Though, certainly, it cannot be received without consequence to one's behavior.

 

[GodsGrace]

We will all continue to grow in grace and knowledge, but the starting point is one of perfection, as that is all that God's seed can provide.

I was never perfect Hopeful.
I'm not perfect now and I don't think I ever will be.

How?
If we are "in God" we are as free of sin as He is.

Whoa.
We're as sin free as God is?
That's quite a mouthful - and that's all I'll say re this.

We can be "free from sin" but only in the sense that we are free from the BONDAGE to sin.
Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

Paul is telling the Romans not to let sin REIGN, COMMAND, their bodies -
he's not saying that they will never sin again.

He was the first.
Many have followed His example.
You don't have to be a perfect speller or typist to remain in Christ, or in the light.

I agree.
We do not have to be perfect to remain in the light.

What future sins will someone walking in the Spirit, and in Christ, and attending to the things of God, commit?
Sin would show a false repentance from sin, and a failed rebirth from God's seed.
Apple seeds can't bear olives.
God's seed cannot bear liars or thieves.

Could you post some verse that states that if I sin it would mean that I never repented?
Really. I can't think of any.

They could, if the sin was against them, or by baptism in His name.
So can we.

No, Hopeful.
Jesus told the Apostles they could forgive man's sins.
Sins. This means AFTER Jesus' ascension the Apostles could forgive man's sins the way Jesus did because He passed this authority to them. He breathed on them...representing the Holy Spirit.

Our having to forgive others is also true but a different idea.
Matthew 5:23-24


We are required to forgive others,
And we must ask God to forgive us our sins...
Matthew 6:14

You have now.
To the glory of God.

Of course he is, it is called exhortation and admonission.
Stay on your toes !
Mind your P's and Q's, look both ways before turning into traffic, wait a while after eating before going in the pool.
All these things are brought up to keep us safe.
They also help identify the posers who try to infiltrate the "Body".

I agree with the above.
But I must say, there sure are a lot of posers!

But you see Hopeful, if God says WAIT A WHILE BEFORE GOING IN THE POOL,
It clearly means that some men will go into the pool without waiting.
Will they quit doing that immediately after being told?

Not everyone in the the addressed churches were as wise as the OGs. (Original Godly)
If you joined the church of the Colossians you wouldn't have the knowledge the others had, so there is no harm in repeating things others may have already known.

I see.
So I use excuses for sinning -
And you make up reasons why Paul repeats to Christians not to sin.

Jesus said we can only serve one master, and would love one and hate the other if we tried to serve two. (Matt 6:24)
Servants of sin hate God.

Good point. And what I've been saying.
We could only SERVE ONE MASTER.
We are not SERVING satan because we commit a sin.
We are serving satan when we live a life of sin.

The sin nature, and all of the rest of us, are as dead as Christ was.
And it was NOT raised from the dead to walk with Christ in newness of life..

If we no longer have the sin nature in us (but suppressed) then what is it that makes us sin?
(not you of course).

It doesn't work.
The things of the Mosaic Law didn't make or keep the believer perfect the first time, so why continue to beat a dead horse"? (Heb 7:19)

I Forget what I said, but I do agree with the above.
Just following rules will not save anyone.
(without faith...faith is necessary).

No, they are not.
The "Genderer" is identified by the fruit.

God and His people make no allowances for sin.
Jesus died so we could be free of sin, so your POV is that His death wasn't necessary?

The man who commits sin; those walking in darkness.

And so can anyone else who desires to use that Advocate.
"We" have the Advocate for "them".
If they are "saved" they no longer need the advocacy of the Lord in matters of sin.

John was talking about Christians H.
We've been this way before.

John also wrote..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)
And..."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)
And..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
A single sin shows a man does not know Him, abide in Him, seen Him, or is begotten of Him.

So, IOW, we DO have to keep all the rules/laws/requirements?
I thought you said the Law didn't work.
Looks like we can't even commit one sin or we'll be lost again or
we were never saved to begin with.

Doesn't sound like the good news.

 

[GodsGrace]

You were challenging the work of water baptism as not being a work of the law and, therefore, not among the works of the works gospel. But the ceremonial cleansing of water is in fact a matter of Mosaic law.

Work not being able to justify means any and all work, not just certain work, because it is not by work, but rather through faith in the blood that one receives the righteousness that comes from God and which is the only righteousness able to qualify you to enter the kingdom of God. The righteousness of your work, even if prompted by faith, is not good enough. Only God's righteousness received through faith in the blood is good enough.

Just fell on this when posting.

If prompted by faith...all works are righteous.
What would they be "good enough for"?
If the work is of faith, it means the person is already saved....

Sorry, I'm not following along, but maybe oversensitivity to "works" is the problem with understanding grace as the CC understands it...

Haven't gotten to your post yet.

 

[GodsGrace]

You use God's grace to work to present yourself righteous before him and, therefore, eligible for salvation. That's the Catholic's understanding of God's grace in justification.

But if God is giving you grace to do some specific work, it means the person is already saved.
I don't see your understanding as being what the CC teaches.
Really, unless you could post something in writing I don't know what else to say.

I mean, in a sense we are all ELIGIBLE for salvation.
We can know we are saved RIGHT NOW...
But will we at time of death?
If we persevere we will, if we abandon God we will not be.

The Protestant understanding is you receive by faith the grace of Christ's righteousness, whereby you become completely and totally righteous in God's sight and, therefore, eligible for salvation.

You mean that Jesus' righteousness is IMPUTED to us?
There is a difference in this in the CC teaching, but it's a nuance, I don't even know if I can explain it because I'm really tired right now.
IOW, Catholics believe that Protestants COVER UP their sinful nature with Jesus...the NT does declare this...am not posting scripture now, anyway you know it.

In the position of the CC it's not so much Jesus covering us, as it is that we have a new person, a new man, in us. (or a new girl, of course LOL).

But we Protestants believe this too.
So the difference is too fine. Maybe I could link something, but not now.
Please reply so I could do this tomorrow in the morning.
Does this sound like what you may mean?
Maybe you mean sanctifying grace and actual grace....
will have to look it up.
One is for the moment to do something specific, and one is ongoing.

And not just in the future, but right now, the moment you believe (John 5:24). You are righteous completely on the merit of Christ's righteousness imputed to you through faith, not on the merit of the righteous work God enables you to do.

Righteous works and merit have to do with REWARDS,
not salvation.
We believe that too.

I think the CC should start paying me a salary.

 

[GodsGrace]

But Catholicism does not believe as we Protestants do in this matter of how we gain the righteousness required to enter into the kingdom of God. That is the important matter that distinguishes the works gospel of Catholicism from the faith gospel of Protestantism.

How is Catholicism a works gospel?
What works does a Catholic have to do to enter into the Kingdom of God?
(I think you mean the Kingdom of Heaven - maybe not).

Maybe the question is:
Do born again believers have to do works after salvation?

We also think we do....no?

 

[GodsGrace]

The identification of baptism is there, just not by name, specifically. 1 Corinthians 10:2 refers to an example.

The point is, you are erroneously making baptism something righteous you do to add to your list of righteous things you must do to be righteous enough to enter into the kingdom of God. That's the works gospel of self righteousness. Even if the righteousness you perform was enabled by God. But that is not adequate because that is hindered by the desires of the flesh that you still possess and, therefore, is not perfect. And never will be, no matter how confident Catholic doctrine, for example, says it will be eventually.

There's only one righteousness perfect enough to allow entry into the kingdom of God - the righteousness of the One and only perfectly obedient person, Jesus Christ. A righteousness imputed to us a free gift of God's grace through faith, apart from the working of righteous works and rituals.

Sorry Jethro.
How could following a command of Jesus be a righteous work?
Is feeding a hungry person a righteous work?
What do you mean it is not perfect?
The hungry person is happy he's eaten...why is my flesh relevant?
Are you becoming supersensitive to works?
Calvinists believe that belief and/or faith is a work when the NT clearly states it is not.

 

[jaybo]

Sorry Jethro.
How could following a command of Jesus be a righteous work?
Is feeding a hungry person a righteous work?
What do you mean it is not perfect?
The hungry person is happy he's eaten...why is my flesh relevant?
Are you becoming supersensitive to works?
Calvinists believe that belief and/or faith is a work when the NT clearly states it is not.

It is really bad weather here: snow, wind, dangerous driving. Be gald you're in Firenze!

 

[GodsGrace]

It is really bad weather here: snow, wind, dangerous driving. Be gald you're in Firenze!

I'm not right in Firenze or I would have made an effort to meet up with you.
I wanted to tell you that I speed when I go there and it takes me about 1 hr 15 mIn. doing about 140km/hr.
If I went slower, it would take about 2 hours.
But the weather even by me is very mild and nice and today was very sunny.
You'll just have to make another trip!
Did you go to Fiesole?
What a beautiful ride.