God The Father God The Son

[SolaScriptura]

God The Father God The Son:

Some, who deny that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and coequal with the Father in the Eternal Godhead, use the argument, that there is no place in the Bible, where we read of “God the Son”.

However, there is a verse in the Second Letter of John, where it is clear, that we have God the Father and God the Son.

"Everyone who goes on ahead and does not remain in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever remains in the teaching has both the Father and the Son" – verse 9

Here we read of those who do not remain in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are said “not to possess God (θεὸν οὐκ ἔχει).

We would have expected John to continue, “whoever remains in the teaching, has God”

However, John instead says, that those who do “remain in the teaching” of Christ, they “have both the Father and the Son (καὶ τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει).

It is not uncommon for the Greek particle, “καὶ”, to mean BOTH, as is clear in John 15:24, “but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father (καὶ ἐμὲ καὶ τὸν πατέρα μου)”

It is very clear from this verse, that the ONE use of “GOD”, includes BOTH The Father AND The Son. There can be no doubt from what John writes here.

Nor can there be any doubt about the distinction of “Persons”, between the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ. In the Greek, it reads: “τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει”, where the article “τὸν” is used with both nouns, and connected by the particle “καὶ”, it shows that “The Father”, is a distinct Person, from “The Son”, and they are not “identical” Persons. Both “Father” and “Son” are “personal” nouns, and cannot be used for something that is “impersonal”.

We have a very similar passage in the Book of Acts, which is a clear Testimony on the Deity of the Holy Spirit. In chapter 5, verse 3 we read:

“But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit (τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον) and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?”

Here we have the “Personality” of the Holy Spirit, as He is LIED (ψεύδομαι, to deceive, cheat) to, which cannot be said, IF, as some, heretically believe, that, the Holy Spirit is “impersonal”, like a mere “force”.

Then, in the following verse, Peter goes on to say;

“While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God (τῷ θεῷ)”

What Ananias had done in lying to the Holy Spirit, was in fact lying to God, and not to “a human” (ἄνθρωπος). Here it is clear that the Holy Spirit is Almighty God. Note the definite article in the Greek, with God (τῷ θεῷ), so it cannot read, “god”, or “a god”.

The essential Unity between God the Father and God the Son, is also clear in other places in the Writings of the Apostle John.

In his Gospel, we read in chapter 10, Jesus says:

“ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν”, which is literally in English: “I and the Father One We are”

John is very careful not to write, “εἷς”, which is the masculine, and can mean, “one Person”. The neuter, “ἕν”, is literally, “One thing”, as in “One Nature”, or, “One Essence”. The masculine plural, “ἐσμεν”, “We are”, also shows the Unity of both the Father and the Son.

Some argue that all Jesus means here, is, that He was “one”, with the Father, as He was doing His will on earth. This is true, but not what Jesus is saying here. We have to go back to verse 28, where Jesus says that He gives to His Sheep, eternal Life, as He is the Source of all Life. He then assures them, that, “neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand”. In the following verse, Jesus goes on to say, “no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand”. Which is followed by the words in verse 30. What Jesus is here saying, is, that He has the SAME Power as the Father, which is what the words in verses 28 and 29 mean. Note that Jesus here places Himself before the Father. In the Old Testament Book of Deuteronomy, we read; “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” (32:39). Again, in the Prophet Isaiah we read, “Also henceforth I am He; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?” (43:13). No doubt that the Almighty Power of God is meant.

Again, in the Gospel of John we read, in the Original and best attested reading on 1:18

“θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο”

Literally, “God no one has ever seen, the Unique God Who is always in very close relation with the Father, He will make Him known”

Here, we have both uses of “θεὸς”, without the Greek article. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, who deny that Jesus Christ is God, while accepting the reading, “μονογενὴς θεὸς”, have, as they do in verse 1, corrupted the actual reading, by rendering the sentence, “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god”. Their DISHONESTY is very clear here. WHY and on WHAT basis, can they justify, the first “θεὸς”, when used of the Father, as “God”, and then the SAME use, without the Greek definite article, have “god”, for Jesus Christ! This is blatant WICKEDNESS!

Jesus is UNIQUE as GOD, because, unlike God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, as the Apostle Paul says, “God was manifest in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16. Original reading). Jesus Christ as His Incarnation, became The God-Man.

 

[Josef]

God The Father God The Son:

Some, who deny that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and coequal with the Father in the Eternal Godhead, use the argument, that there is no place in the Bible, where we read of “God the Son”.

However, there is a verse in the Second Letter of John, where it is clear, that we have God the Father and God the Son.

"Everyone who goes on ahead and does not remain in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever remains in the teaching has both the Father and the Son" – verse 9

Here we read of those who do not remain in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are said “not to possess God (θεὸν οὐκ ἔχει).

We would have expected John to continue, “whoever remains in the teaching, has God”

However, John instead says, that those who do “remain in the teaching” of Christ, they “have both the Father and the Son (καὶ τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει).

It is not uncommon for the Greek particle, “καὶ”, to mean BOTH, as is clear in John 15:24, “but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father (καὶ ἐμὲ καὶ τὸν πατέρα μου)”

It is very clear from this verse, that the ONE use of “GOD”, includes BOTH The Father AND The Son. There can be no doubt from what John writes here.

Nor can there be any doubt about the distinction of “Persons”, between the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ. In the Greek, it reads: “τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει”, where the article “τὸν” is used with both nouns, and connected by the particle “καὶ”, it shows that “The Father”, is a distinct Person, from “The Son”, and they are not “identical” Persons. Both “Father” and “Son” are “personal” nouns, and cannot be used for something that is “impersonal”.

We have a very similar passage in the Book of Acts, which is a clear Testimony on the Deity of the Holy Spirit. In chapter 5, verse 3 we read:

“But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit (τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον) and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?”

Here we have the “Personality” of the Holy Spirit, as He is LIED (ψεύδομαι, to deceive, cheat) to, which cannot be said, IF, as some, heretically believe, that, the Holy Spirit is “impersonal”, like a mere “force”.

Then, in the following verse, Peter goes on to say;

“While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God (τῷ θεῷ)”

What Ananias had done in lying to the Holy Spirit, was in fact lying to God, and not to “a human” (ἄνθρωπος). Here it is clear that the Holy Spirit is Almighty God. Note the definite article in the Greek, with God (τῷ θεῷ), so it cannot read, “god”, or “a god”.

The essential Unity between God the Father and God the Son, is also clear in other places in the Writings of the Apostle John.

In his Gospel, we read in chapter 10, Jesus says:

“ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν”, which is literally in English: “I and the Father One We are”

John is very careful not to write, “εἷς”, which is the masculine, and can mean, “one Person”. The neuter, “ἕν”, is literally, “One thing”, as in “One Nature”, or, “One Essence”. The masculine plural, “ἐσμεν”, “We are”, also shows the Unity of both the Father and the Son.

Some argue that all Jesus means here, is, that He was “one”, with the Father, as He was doing His will on earth. This is true, but not what Jesus is saying here. We have to go back to verse 28, where Jesus says that He gives to His Sheep, eternal Life, as He is the Source of all Life. He then assures them, that, “neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand”. In the following verse, Jesus goes on to say, “no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand”. Which is followed by the words in verse 30. What Jesus is here saying, is, that He has the SAME Power as the Father, which is what the words in verses 28 and 29 mean. Note that Jesus here places Himself before the Father. In the Old Testament Book of Deuteronomy, we read; “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” (32:39). Again, in the Prophet Isaiah we read, “Also henceforth I am He; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?” (43:13). No doubt that the Almighty Power of God is meant.

Again, in the Gospel of John we read, in the Original and best attested reading on 1:18

“θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο”

Literally, “God no one has ever seen, the Unique God Who is always in very close relation with the Father, He will make Him known”

Here, we have both uses of “θεὸς”, without the Greek article. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, who deny that Jesus Christ is God, while accepting the reading, “μονογενὴς θεὸς”, have, as they do in verse 1, corrupted the actual reading, by rendering the sentence, “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god”. Their DISHONESTY is very clear here. WHY and on WHAT basis, can they justify, the first “θεὸς”, when used of the Father, as “God”, and then the SAME use, without the Greek definite article, have “god”, for Jesus Christ! This is blatant WICKEDNESS!

Jesus is UNIQUE as GOD, because, unlike God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, as the Apostle Paul says, “God was manifest in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16. Original reading). Jesus Christ as His Incarnation, became The God-Man.

Hey All,

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is Jesus. John explains this in the chapter.
The only Bible does not translate this correctly is the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible. They are a cult that does not believe that Jesus is God, and wrote their Bible based on their false beliefs.

So is that what you are saying here?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hey All,

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is Jesus. John explains this in the chapter.
The only Bible does not translate this correctly is the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible. They are a cult that does not believe that Jesus is God, and wrote their Bible based on their false beliefs.

So is that what you are saying here?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

The English Versions of Goodspeed and Moffatt, don't read "and the Word was God", but "divine", which is not the same.

And the one by Newcombe reads "a god"

What am I saying? The OP should tell you this

 

[tigger 2]

Hey All,

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is Jesus. John explains this in the chapter.
The only Bible does not translate this correctly is the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible. They are a cult that does not believe that Jesus is God, and wrote their Bible based on their false beliefs.

So is that what you are saying here?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

...............................................
NT Greek Grammar proves John 1:1c is properly translated: "and the word was a god."

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-11c-primer_21.html
or
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

 

[SolaScriptura]

...............................................
NT Greek Grammar proves John 1:1c is properly translated: "and the word was a god."

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-11c-primer_21.html
or
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

Those who say it should read "a god" don't really know Greek grammar!

 

[tigger 2]

Those who say it should read "a god" don't really know Greek grammar!

..................................
Prove it by examining and factually refuting the facts revealed in my studies (see #4 above).

 

[Free]

...............................................
NT Greek Grammar proves John 1:1c is properly translated: "and the word was a god."

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-11c-primer_21.html
or
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

..................................
Prove it by examining and factually refuting the facts revealed in my studies (see #4 above).

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 37:16 "LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

Isa 37:20 Now, LORD our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you, LORD, are the only God."

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
…
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."
…
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Mar 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
...
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.
...
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

(All ESV.)

Since, according to God himself, there never was nor ever will be another god, the NWT translation of John 1:1c as "a god" is soundly refuted. It is precluded by the above passages (among others).

 

[tigger 2]

You haven't even touched the Greek Grammar of my challenge.

Furthermore, I'm sure you are aware of your error in your last post:

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2014/06/no-other-gods-or-god-deut-3239.html

I suppose waiting for an answer concerning the grammar "mistakes" you found in my studies in post #4 above is a foolish expectation.

 

[Free]

You haven't even touched the Greek Grammar of my challenge.

The grammar only matters in that Theos is anarthrous. That, together with God’s very clear claim that he is the only and there never was nor will be another, means that John 1:1c is a qualitative statement—the Word is divine or deity. Again, since God very clearly claims he is the only god (and God), it cannot mean the Word is a separate deity; it can only mean he is the same deity, yet distinct from the Father. Hence, the NWT in John 1:1c contradicts Scripture, and God’s own claims no less.

Furthermore, I'm sure you are aware of your error in your last post:

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2014/06/no-other-gods-or-god-deut-3239.html

I suppose waiting for an answer concerning the grammar "mistakes" you found in my studies in post #4 above is a foolish expectation.

If you don’t post them here, then yes.

 

[SolaScriptura]

..................................
Prove it by examining and factually refuting the facts revealed in my studies (see #4 above).

The Incomparable Jesus Christ In The Prologue of John

This Prologue of the Gospel of John, which is from verse 1, to verse 18, is all about “ο λογος (THE WORD)”. It is very hard to understand, how anyone can read this entire passage in John chapter 1, about Jesus Christ, and then continue to deny that HE IS YHWH? The first words of this Gospel...

christianforums.net

 

[Josef]

The English Versions of Goodspeed and Moffatt, don't read "and the Word was God", but "divine", which is not the same.

And the one by Newcombe reads "a god"

What am I saying? The OP should tell you this

So two versions of the bible, one written by the Jehovah's Witnesses cult, and one that I have never heard of, negates all of the other translations?

Not hardly!

If you are Jehovah's Witness, turn to Revelation 22:7 please. I have it here in KJV. It should read word for word.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Who would you say is speaking here? Who is coming quickly? Well it doesn't say. But this same person further reveals himself in verses 12-13.

Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Now we have a clue. This is God speaking. All of these attributes are God's alone. We agree that no mere man can make these claims.

Ah, but what does verse 16 say?

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The person speaking is Jesus. Your own bible assigns Godly attributes to Jesus. "These things" means everything before. That includes, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

So the Jehovah's Witnesses' bible contradicts itself. How can Jesus be"a god" in John 1:1, yet actually be God here in Revelation 22? Same author wrote both books. There is obviously something wrong with the translation. Therefore I do not trust the Jehovah's Witnesses' bible.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[tigger 2]

So two versions of the bible, one written by the Jehovah's Witnesses cult, and one that I have never heard of, negates all of the other translations?

Not hardly!

If you are Jehovah's Witness, turn to Revelation 22:7 please. I have it here in KJV. It should read word for word.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Who would you say is speaking here? Who is coming quickly? Well it doesn't say. But this same person further reveals himself in verses 12-13.

Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Now we have a clue. This is God speaking. All of these attributes are God's alone. We agree that no mere man can make these claims.

Ah, but what does verse 16 say?

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The person speaking is Jesus. Your own bible assigns Godly attributes to Jesus. "These things" means everything before. That includes, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

So the Jehovah's Witnesses' bible contradicts itself. How can Jesus be"a god" in John 1:1, yet actually be God here in Revelation 22? Same author wrote both books. There is obviously something wrong with the translation. Therefore I do not trust the Jehovah's Witnesses' bible.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

........................................
The word is called 'a god' in Jn 1:1c because NT Greek Grammar as used by the Gospel writers demands it.

If you would actually read my studies you would understand. It is necessary to know the exceptions found in trinitarian grammars to the rules that trinitarians have developed to make the anarthrous theos of Jn 1:1c into an articular theos (theos into ho theos - or the false "qualitative rule.")

Yes, it's possible to find examples which seem to prove the trinitarian position UNTIL you actually know the exceptions to the rules.

Here are all the examples which are truly parallel to John's usage of John 1:1c:

H 1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all translations

H,W 2. John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 3. John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”) - all [16]

H,W 4. John 8:44 (a) - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”) - all

H,W 5. John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”) - all

H,W 6. John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 7. John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”) - all

H,W 8. John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”) - all

H,W 9. John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all

H,W 10 John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”) - all

[H,W 11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

………………………………................................

H,W 12. Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”) - all

H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”) - all

H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”) - all

H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”) - all

18. 1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”) - all
And, possibly,

H,W 19. 1 John 2:4 - liar (he) is.

H = Also found in Harner's list of "Colwell Constructions"

W = Also found in Wallace's list of "Colwell Constructions"


So when all the proper (those most closely equivalent to the actual usage found at John 1:1c) examples found in John's writings are examined in various trinitarian Bibles (KJV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.), we find they are always translated with indefinite concrete nouns such as "you are a prophet" (Jn 4:19) which perfectly corresponds with a rendering of John 1:1c as "The Word was a god"!
...........................................

Is Jesus actually found to be the Alpha and Omega of Revelation?

John is identified as the speaker in Rev. 22:8. The angel speaks in (:9). The angel apparently continues speaking in (:10). The angel may be still speaking in (:11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB, 1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in (:12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It's entirely a matter of translator's choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ISV, 21st Century King James Version, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not!

The ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE show (by quotation marks and indenting/paragraphs) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible; the NJB; and Moffatt show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.)

Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE , you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of "I, John" indicated a new speaker in Revelation 1:9, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - "I, Jesus" also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement ("I am the Alpha and Omega") was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word "his" in verse 14 that they didn't mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing "His Commandments" (not "My Commandments")! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text (TR), e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJ21; KJIIV, MKJV; GNV; World English Bible; Young's Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa's translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses "him."

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

 

[Free]

........................................
The word is called 'a god' in Jn 1:1c because NT Greek Grammar as used by the Gospel writers demands it.

If you would actually read my studies you would understand. It is necessary to know the exceptions found in trinitarian grammars to the rules that trinitarians have developed to make the anarthrous theos of Jn 1:1c into an articular theos (theos into ho theos - or the false "qualitative rule.")

Yes, it's possible to find examples which seem to prove the trinitarian position UNTIL you actually know the exceptions to the rules.

Here are all the examples which are truly parallel to John's usage of John 1:1c:

H 1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all translations

H,W 2. John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 3. John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”) - all [16]

H,W 4. John 8:44 (a) - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”) - all

H,W 5. John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”) - all

H,W 6. John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 7. John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”) - all

H,W 8. John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”) - all

H,W 9. John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all

H,W 10 John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”) - all

[H,W 11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

………………………………................................

H,W 12. Jn 8:44 (b) - indefinite (“a liar”) - all

H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - indefinite (“a beggar”) - all

H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - indefinite (“a hireling/hired hand”) - all

H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - indefinite (“a thief”) - all

18. 1 Jn 4:20 - indefinite (“a liar”) - all
And, possibly,

H,W 19. 1 John 2:4 - liar (he) is.

H = Also found in Harner's list of "Colwell Constructions"

W = Also found in Wallace's list of "Colwell Constructions"


So when all the proper (those most closely equivalent to the actual usage found at John 1:1c) examples found in John's writings are examined in various trinitarian Bibles (KJV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.), we find they are always translated with indefinite concrete nouns such as "you are a prophet" (Jn 4:19) which perfectly corresponds with a rendering of John 1:1c as "The Word was a god"!

Except that when God himself says he is the only God and that there never has been another actual god, that precludes "a god" from even being considered as a legitimate translation. To say otherwise is to divorce John 1:1c from the context of the entirety of Scripture, never mind the rest of John 1:1-18, and most importantly, the rest of verse 1.

John 1:1a tells us the Word is eternal, that is, when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence. That automatically makes the Word deity in nature; it cannot mean otherwise. That is then also confirmed in verses 2, 3, and 10. John 1:1b states that the Word was in intimate communion and relationship with God. This means that John could not have used the article for theos in 1:1c, or the Word would have been equated with God, making the terms interchangeable. But that is error of Modalism, which would contradict the Word being "with God."

John was precise in what he was saying and the only legitimate understanding of 1:1c is that of a qualitative sense--the Word shared in the nature and being of God. There was no other way he could have written it and there is no other way in which it can be understood. He avoids Sabellianism, Arianism, and polytheism, while stating that there are at least two persons that are God, showing that there is diversity within the one Being.

The Watchtower doctrine of God and the Word is essentially based on Gnosticism, where there are numerous intermediate beings that can truly be called "gods." God himself clearly denies that any other gods exist; the Watchtower would be wise to heed what God says.

By the way, I noticed this in your blog:

"B. The Gospel writers (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) always used the article "the" (o with a tiny "c" above it in NT Greek: ὁ ) with theos when they intended "God." That is, when they meant to say "God" they would always write ho theos (ὁ θεὸς)."

But that isn't true. Theos is used without the article in John 1:18, 8:54, Mark 12:27, and Luke 20:38. So, unless I've missed something, you may want to correct that claim. And, given that you use that as a basis for the incorrect translation of John 1:1c as "a god," you might want to rethink that as well.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
What Free said. Seriously Free your explanation is far better than mine would have been. Good rightly dividin!

You know you are heavily into the weeds, tigger 2, when you start debating the punctuation of Scripture to prove your point.
If that your strongest argument, you are admitting you actually have no defense of your position.
Why is that?
I an not a Greek scholar either. But I do know that the New Testament writers did not use punctuation. There is no coma between "I" and "Jesus" in my Bible. If your whole argument hangs on a coma, you or the NWT bible added, then we both know your argument has failed. (By the way, you are not the first one to make this argument. I have heard it before.)

Let's get back to the main focus.
Remember who The Revelation is about.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Remember Revelation 1:8 established who is making these claims.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Who can make this claim?
Well the Almighty can.
Can anyone else?
No, an angel cannot make this claim.
John cannot make this claim.
Only God.
But we have another issue to resolve.
When was God "pierced?"

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Then we throw in this further explanation.

Revelation 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

This is clearly not an angel.
This is God.
He is the first and last.
He holds the keys of hell and death.

Ah, Houston; we still have two big problems:
When was God pierced?
How can God die?
Who now fits this description?

The book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Jesus was pierced.
Jesus died and now lives.
We don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure this out.

Note also, that some of these same attributes here sre used in chapter 22.

If only the Almighty can make these claims in chapter 1, then it stands to reason that only the Almighty can make these same claims in Revelation 22.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Three times Jesus uses the phrase "I come quickly" in Revelation chapters 2-3.

Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Jesus will bring His reward with Him.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Jesus commands angels.

Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus is the root of David. (He created Adam.)

John 1:2-3 The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus is the offspring of David through Mary.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Then John makes it clear who is speaking with in verse 20.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

John knew to whom he was speaking.
I know because John tells me here.
You can see this for yourself.
May you now have ears that hear.
Good discussion tigger 2.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[tigger 2]

Free wrote: A. "Except that when God himself says he is the only God and that there never has been another actual god, that precludes "a god" from even being considered as a legitimate translation."

And,
B. "John 1:1a tells us the Word is eternal, that is, when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence. That automatically makes the Word deity in nature; it cannot mean otherwise."

And,
C. "By the way, I noticed this in your blog:

" '... The Gospel writers (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) always used the article "the" (o with a tiny "c" above it in NT Greek: ὁ ) with theos when they intended "God." That is, when they meant to say "God" they would always write ho theos (ὁ θεὸς).'

"But that isn't true. Theos is used without the article in John 1:18, 8:54, Mark 12:27, and Luke 20:38. So, unless I've missed something, you may want to correct that claim."
...................................................

A. The use of "god" here is a matter of interpretation. Some trinitarian translations render it "God." So "there is no other God" makes perfect sense. "There is no other god" does not make sense according to the rest of scripture.

B. There are many beginnings in scripture. But the eternal God has no beginning he is called the unbegotten. Sometime during that eternity God brought forth (begot) the Son. That is the first beginning. Another beginning is the creation of the angels (through the Son). And another is the creation of the universe (through the Son), and so on.

C. And finally, I note with pleasure that someone actually replied to a tiny portion of my study. However, if you had read a little more you would have found the reasons that articular usage is sometimes regarded as ambiguous. These exceptions to the usual rule include the use of genitives (theou, mou, christou, etc.) When the genitive is modifying another noun (e.g., theos) the use or non-use of the article with that noun is uncertain and only the context and the translator's opinion is the determining factor.

The exceptions to article use listed in my study are supported by noted trinitarian NT Grammar writers and are the key factor in determining the honest rendering of anarthrous nouns found in scripture (including John 1:1c, of course).

All of your examples (except John 1:18, of course) are those with theos modified by genitives. As for John 1:18, it refers to Jesus and would, therefore, be understood to be "god." And as also noted in my study, there are some translations which use "son" here.

Please continue to comment on my study of John's usage in John 1:1c.

 

[tigger 2]

Free's quote from my 'blog' is not from the two studies I gave links to in post #4. It certainly may be from my blog, but I'm not sure where. So my comment that "I note with pleasure that someone actually replied to a tiny portion of my study" is not quite accurate.

 

[Free]

A. The use of "god" here is a matter of interpretation. Some trinitarian translations render it "God." So "there is no other God" makes perfect sense. "There is no other god" does not make sense according to the rest of scripture.

The use of "god" is not a matter of interpretation. You continue to avoid addressing the main problem with it, and that is that God himself said there never was and never will be another god or God. That precludes the use of "god" or "a god."

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 37:20 Now, LORD our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you, LORD, are the only God."

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
…
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

(All ESV.)

Again, God himself says he is the only God or god; there never was and never will be another.

B. There are many beginnings in scripture. But the eternal God has no beginning he is called the unbegotten. Sometime during that eternity God brought forth (begot) the Son. That is the first beginning. Another beginning is the creation of the angels (through the Son). And another is the creation of the universe (through the Son), and so on.

No. The creation of all things that came into existence begins in Genesis 1:1 and that is what John 1:1 and 1:2 are referring to. If something else came into being prior to that, then that would have been the beginning of creation, and hence, once again, Gen 1:1.

Besides John 1:1-3 preclude the Word, the preincarnate Son of God, from ever having not existed. It is a logical impossibility, first through the grammar of John 1:1-2, and then the clear and obvious line of argument in John 1:3. If there was a time when the Word did not exist, then the first three verses of John's gospel are absolutely false, which means his gospel should be excluded from the canon. Everything John says about Jesus in his gospel is based on who he shows him to be in the first 18 verses. And it shows Jesus to be truly God in nature but distinct from the Father.

In considering John 1:3:

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

We should also look at these:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things,

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
...
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

Clearly the Father is speaking of the Son, but that is a quote from the Psalms--a passage that is speaking of Yahweh:

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end.

Isa 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

Isa 42:5 Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:12 I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.

Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

Isa 51:13 and have forgotten the LORD, your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth, and you fear continually all the day because of the wrath of the oppressor, when he sets himself to destroy? And where is the wrath of the oppressor?

Job 9:8 who alone stretched out the heavens and trampled the waves of the sea;

Psa 104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul! O LORD my God, you are very great! You are clothed with splendor and majesty,
Psa 104:2 covering yourself with light as with a garment, stretching out the heavens like a tent.
Psa 104:3 He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters; he makes the clouds his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind;
Psa 104:4 he makes his messengers winds, his ministers a flaming fire.
Psa 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Jer 51:14 The LORD of hosts has sworn by himself: Surely I will fill you with men, as many as locusts, and they shall raise the shout of victory over you.
Jer 51:15 “It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.

(All ESV.)

Quite interesting, isn't it? John says that not one thing has come into being apart from the Word, that "All things were made through him." That is then echoed by Paul in 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16, and by the writer of Hebrews in 1:2. But, Paul also says that God created all things in Eph 3:9. And, then, to top all that off, the Father himself says the Son created everything, by applying Psalm 102:25-27 to the Son.

Yet, the Bible clearly states that Yahweh created everything by himself; again, even God himself says so.

How are we to make sense of it all? By translating John 1:1c correctly, understanding it within its own context and the greater context of the rest of Scripture. It can only be translated as "God," with the understanding that it is really saying that "the Word was God in nature." However, since there is only one God, it is still correct to translate it as only "God;" the meaning is the same.

 

[Free]

C. And finally, I note with pleasure that someone actually replied to a tiny portion of my study. However, if you had read a little more you would have found the reasons that articular usage is sometimes regarded as ambiguous. These exceptions to the usual rule include the use of genitives (theou, mou, christou, etc.) When the genitive is modifying another noun (e.g., theos) the use or non-use of the article with that noun is uncertain and only the context and the translator's opinion is the determining factor.

The exceptions to article use listed in my study are supported by noted trinitarian NT Grammar writers and are the key factor in determining the honest rendering of anarthrous nouns found in scripture (including John 1:1c, of course).

Now you're moving the goalposts from what you state in your blog:

"B. The Gospel writers (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) always used the article "the" (o with a tiny "c" above it in NT Greek: ὁ ) with theos when they intended "God." That is, when they meant to say "God" they would always write ho theos (ὁ θεὸς). [This does not always hold true for other Greek forms of "God" e.g. theou or theon or theo.]"

https://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/john-11c-english-translation-word-was.html

If you read what I wrote, you would notice I avoided those things and provided uses in the gospels of theos without "ὁ". So, I've proven point B wrong.

All of your examples (except John 1:18, of course) are those with theos modified by genitives. As for John 1:18, it refers to Jesus and would, therefore, be understood to be "god." And as also noted in my study, there are some translations which use "son" here.

Again, no, in John 1:18 it cannot be "god" for the same reason 1:1c cannot be "a god"--because there never was nor will be another god or God. That is what God himself says and that is what you need to address. The NWT translation in both verses is a case of fallaciously begging the question, and that while ignoring other clear teachings of the Bible which make such translations impossible. Absolutely foundational to the Christian faith is that there ever has been and will be only one being that is a living God or god. Any other so-called god is a false god that is not living.

Please continue to comment on my study of John's usage in John 1:1c.

I don't have the time to wade through it all. You need to starting posting the relevant bits here you want people to address. Besides, you can argue to the supposed grammar all you like, I've proven conclusively that "a god" cannot be considered a legitimate translation.

 

[eddif]

From what I understand. LOL
Go to most any denominational or group Greek expert, and you will find their theology is supported by their Greek language department.

How can there be so many ways to understand what the Greek says?

I started a Greek class once. A strange subject came up. I asked if another denomination Greek class would be the same. They tried to dodge the question. I asked again and the final answer was (No).

End of Greek experts. Oh I know - but our Greek is right. I Still look up words at times, but I don’t argue about correct Translation and parsing.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

...............................................
NT Greek Grammar proves John 1:1c is properly translated: "and the word was a god."

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-11c-primer_21.html
or
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

Totally false.