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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is repentance needed for salvation?
- Thread starter reddogs
- Start date
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Didn't John the Baptist demand that sinners bear fruit worthy of genuine repentance?
I believe you are wrong Tulipbee.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Grace, and the faith to believe, comes from God.
2 Corinthians 7:9-10 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
We were made sorry.
Made sorry.
You did not know you were sorry.
God made you sorry.
Godly sorrow worketh repentance.
Who's sorrow worketh repentance?
God's.
Not man's.
Repentance is the response of Godly sorrow.
When grace is shown, and we are given the measure of faith to understand what it means, repentance occurs.
Reddogs is not stirring the pot.
He is dishing out the meat in the pot.
We can do nothing apart from God's initiation.
We are compelled to admit the truth when the truth is revealed to us, and we understand it.
Salvation is completely the work of God.
Repentance is just acknowledging what has already occurred. (See Ephesians 2:9)
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Yes. Repentance by definition is a change of mind, in a fancy term, "paradigm shift". It's not "work of law" or any other kind of work, not a condition of salvation, but as you said, acceptance of salvation. If you still live in sin and take pleasure in it, then that's denial of salvation.
Hey All,
I believe John the Baptist is speaking about actual fruit for sacrifice. Remember this passage occurs before the resurrection. So the crowd's concept of repentance would be in relation to the sacrifice for attornment.
Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
These people were relying on their lineage to save them. "We have Abraham to our father."
John said, "eeeeeeh" (the buzzer sound for wrong) "Wrong answer."
Abraham didn't make them worthy.
Not just any old fruit of the field make them worthy.
What would be the fruits worthy of salvation?
Wouldn't it be the first fruits?
Exodus 22:29
Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
Leviticus 2:14
And if thou offer a meat offering of thy firstfruits unto the LORD, thou shalt offer for the meat offering of thy firstfruits green ears of corn dried by the fire, even corn beaten out of full ears.
Numbers 28:26
Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work:
Why the first fruits?
Because the first fruits come from the faith that a seed planted, will bear fruit in its season.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
All sin is pleasurable in some way. That is why it is hard to stop for some. If it were not pleasurable it would be easy to avoid.
I, personally, cannot just turn it off. Sin still gets the better of me from time to time. Do I want it to? No. Can I stop it? Not all the time.
God saved me the way I am. It is His job to fix me. And He has. Over the years, I believe I can say with honesty I sin less today than say 20 years ago. But we all know that is not good enough.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
That is our command. I am not sinless. I have never never been able to achieve perfection in my walk. I take no pleasure in stating this. I am ashamed to have to admit it.
In this earthen vessel, I will always be a sinner, saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
But I am still walking.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
Ah, reddogs, you've got quite the feast of biblical verses laid out on the theological table! Repentance, like the main course of a grand banquet, seems to be the star of the show according to your spread. Jesus and the apostles are serving up reminders left and right—repentance is the key to unlocking the doors of salvation, no doubt about it!
But hold onto your hats, my friends, 'cause Josef's come to the table with his own seasoning of biblical wisdom. He's like, "Hey Tulipbee, I believe you're wrong," quoting Romans and 2 Corinthians like a theological chef whipping up a gourmet dish of grace and repentance. According to Josef, repentance isn't just any old side dish—it's the response of godly sorrow, a divine culinary creation served up by none other than God himself.
And let's not forget Carry_Your_Name, adding a sprinkle of wisdom to the potluck of discussion. Repentance, she says, is like a fancy "paradigm shift," not a work of law but an acceptance of salvation. It's like swapping out your old recipe for a brand-new flavor of faith. So, folks, let's keep walking in the light of truth and grace, remembering that salvation isn't just about what's on our theological plates—it's about the transformation happening in our hearts.
Keep stirring the pot, my friends, and may God's blessings be upon us all! Cheers to the banquet of faith!
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Our sin nature is innate, it stays with us till we pass away, what you really mean is "hibitual sin", a compulsatory, negative behavior pattern, ranging from addictions to destructive outbursts, that is what really holds you captive. The bad news is, habit is a loop of three parts - cue, routine and reward, and whatever sinful behavior you have, that's the routine. We're biologically programmed to act on cue for the reward, you can't turn it off, you can't get rid of it, this loop can't be broken. the good news is, although it can't be broken, the routine can be REPLACED, and that's where repentence and salvation fit in, to have your bad, sinful routines replaced with good, godly routines. This is a slow process, sometimes a harmful routine is first replaced with a less harmful one, for example, from hardcore porn to light hearted erotica; eventually, if you follow it through, you'll lose intrest in those old vices and find joy, peace and satisfaction in new pursuits where the Holy Spirit leads you to. Even if you still crave for those old stuffs, you simply have no time or energy to waste on them any more, you have outgrown them, they are no longer pleasurable to you.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Or spiritual fruits - love, joy, peace, endurance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
Tenchi
Member
Is our sin-nature always with us? Is this what 2 Corinthians 5:17 indicates?
2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.
And,
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
And,
Galatians 2:20
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
And,
Colossians 3:2-3
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
And,
Colossians 2:9-13
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Philippians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
Corinth77777
Member
1. Who received the promise of the Holy Spirit?
2. And what is the promise of the Holy Spirit
Please answer those questions above in order so I can understand.
Here is kjv
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
3 what is the gift?
It's not clear to me
That's possible but not a fact in what happen here.
Why don’t you please share the difference
the gift of the Holy Ghostand what is the gift
Refreshing comes from the presence of the Lord
Yes, He shall send Jesus Christ, not Christ Jesus
What do you suppose the difference is the passage below:
1 TIMOTHY
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
In Romans 8:9 what is the Spirit of Christ:
Romans 8:9 King James Version 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
You are not the only one that believes that.
But I suspect there is.
The question then is how is the holy Spirit and holy ghost the same?
My Friends Last Maiden Name was Poor and she was poor before she got married. Then she got married to a rich man whose last name was Rich. So her last name changed from
Poor to Rich.
Now she has moved out of Her parents house to
live in another.
What Roles and responsibilities does she play that go along with Her new Name.
Is she the same? If so how?
is she different? If so How?
Yes, pour out of
And still if this is the version, what is the Spirit He pours forth
Not so, it was to fullfill all righteousness, John too would know Who Jesus was. And may give clues to what happens to others who are sons of God at their water Baptism.
well that's not my premise anyway
But we do know the Holy Ghost fell on those who believed
Is this above the time of refreshing?
not for all who would be saved but in my opinion maybe for those who would receive the power or annoiting of the Holy Ghost.
Yes, yes my point
exactlykjv
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.
Were they water baptized here?
Note to self:
And what do you suppose came over Jesus at His Water Baptism? maybe the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God
Kjv says The Holy Ghost came on them?
- A point to make here is they were baptized in the name of Jesus b4 Paul layed hands on them.
So it seems they believed His teaching first...
What did He preach? Do you suppose He taught Christ crucified and resurrected and at the right hand of God with all authority
So them hearing of John's Baptism do you suppose they were baptized by John? Probably so.
Let those who have an ear hear-
Why do you suppose they heard the word and others may have not?
Why were some given ears to hear, what caused them to hear?
Were these already believers who came with Peter of Cornelius?
Was it pour out upon, or pour in?
I think pour out not pour in
Pour out on people who believed
What did they say in tongues? Were they praising God
How did they know they received the Holy Spirit
I THINK BECAUSE THE Holy Ghost was Poured upon them.
God gives His holy Spirit freely
1 Cor 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”
Excuse all the mistakes tks
Last edited:
Corinth77777
Member
1. Who received the promise of the Holy Spirit?
2. And what is the promise of the Holy Spirit
Please answer those questions above in order so I can understand.
Here is kjv
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
3 what is the gift?
It's not clear to me
That's possible but not a fact in what happen here.
Why don’t you please share the difference
and what is the gift
Refreshing comes from the presence of the Lord
Yes, He shall send Jesus Christ, not Christ Jesus
What do you suppose the difference is the passage below:
1 TIMOTHY
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
In Romans 8:9 what is the Spirit of Christ:
Romans 8:9 King James Version 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
You are not the only one that believes that.
But I suspect there is.
The question then is how is the holy Spirit and holy ghost the same?
My Friends Last Maiden Name was Poor and she was poor before she got married. Then she got married to a rich man whose last name was Rich. So her last name changed from
Poor to Rich.
Now she has moved out of Her parents house to
live in another.
What Roles and responsibilities does she play that go along with Her new Name.
Is she the same? If so how?
is she different? If so How?
Yes, pour out of
And still if this is the version, what is the Spirit He pours forth
Not so, it was to fullfill all righteousness, John too would know Who Jesus was. And may give clues to what happens to others who are sons of God at their water Baptism.
well that's not my premise anyway
But we do know the Holy Ghost fell on those who believed
Is this above the time of refreshing?
not for all who would be saved but in my opinion maybe for those who would receive the power or annoiting of the Holy Ghost.
Yes, yes my point
kjv
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.
Were they water baptized here?
Note to self:
And what do you suppose came over Jesus at His Water Baptism? maybe the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God
Kjv says The Holy Ghost came on them?
- A point to make here is they were baptized in the name of Jesus b4 Paul layed hands on them.
So it seems they believed His teaching first...
What did He preach? Do you suppose He taught Christ crucified and resurrected and at the right hand of God with all authority
So them hearing of John's Baptism do you suppose they were baptized by John? Probably so.
Let those who have an ear hear-
Why do you suppose they heard the word and others may have not?
Why were some given ears to hear, what caused them to hear?
Were these already believers who came with Peter of Cornelius?
Was it pour out upon, or pour in?
I think pour out not pour in
Pour out on people who believed
What did they say in tongues? Were they praising God
How did they know they received the Holy Spirit
I THINK BECAUSE THE Holy Ghost was Poured upon them.
God gives His holy Spirit freely
1 Cor 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”
In the name of the Lord
Ok, and what do you think I believe?
I believe God can sanctify the water, the same way the woman believed if she could just touch the Hem of His garment.
It's about Faith in God even to use water if He wants to..to those with sincere faith. Especially if He shows the reality through the use of water.
For we know the things that are seen are temporary and the things unseen are eternal.
What made Him want to be Baptized?
He must have believed what He heard.
it's the Spirit that gives life.
Jesus said the words He Spoke were Spirit and life...And that the disciples, if I recall correctly. Were already clean by the words He Spoke.
So what do you think happened to the Eunich? DID He get baptized because His Sins were already washed away.And therefore wanted to testify to that teaching? AND NOW WANTED HIS BODY WASHED TOO ?
Maybe in their day this was a pledge to enter the faith that Isreal Had.
Again, what is it you think I believe?
Maybe here He had yet to have the Holyghost fall on Him.
Yet He believed, therefore had some type of Joy
I believe that most likely there are many people who received the Holy Ghost at their baptism.
I believe one receives the Holy Spirit when they believes. And there are some who may have continued to believe by being water baptized whereby they received the HolyGhost.
I believing the Holyghost, and note:I know I haven't studied this throughly, is power or the annoiting of one who continues to walk in faith.
Maybe some believe you do not receive the Holy Spirit in you until the Holyghost comes upon you.
But rivers of water flowing out the belly represents to me, of what comes from one position in your journey of faith unto the next.
My thought: Out of the HolySpirit Springs revelation, prophecy gifts of the Spirit used for kingdom building.
Which leads me back to How God may have made Himself known to Israel whereby they learnt to depend totally on Him.
Corinth77777
Member
They needed a change of attitude
To bring forth fruit they would come with the right attitude.
Why are they coming to a baptism with belief that it won't help them.
Made sorry ?
Sorrow is a voluntary reaction to an outside stimulus, and in this case for our own sins.
Scripture, please.
What about all those who are not so sorry for their past sins that they sorrow unto repentance...like the Pharisees ?
It is "Godly" sorrow that worketh repentance.
It is a real, heart breaking, kind of sorrow.
Not "God's sorrow".
Wow, have you ever twisted that...
How is God sorry for our sins ?
Consecrated Life
Member
To whom is a person who has no Spiritual Father that they love unrepentant towards ?
You cannot be unrepentant void of both a Father who is the focus of your unrepentance , as well as a love for the Father from whom you are withholding your repentance.
It is the love for the person from whom you withhold your repentance that makes real the unrelenting consciousness of your unrepentant state which gives you no peace or no rest but a continual gnawing at your heart.
Without Spiritual love for the Father, a state of unrepentance cannot exist in the sinful child of God
The false premise of the OP is that an unrepentant person can have great love for the Father ,yet go about their unrepentant happy go lucky, merry way with no negative impact whatsoever on their own heart due to a lost intimacy and joy with the Father they once enjoyed with such passion.
If you ever experience the negative gnawing at your heart impact of unrepentant sin just know that without love for God and an unrelenting desire to please Him you would not be feeling a thing .
And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,
Deu 32:49
Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; a
And die in the mount whither thou goest up............
Deu 32:51
Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.
You cannot be unrepentant void of both a Father who is the focus of your unrepentance , as well as a love for the Father from whom you are withholding your repentance.
It is the love for the person from whom you withhold your repentance that makes real the unrelenting consciousness of your unrepentant state which gives you no peace or no rest but a continual gnawing at your heart.
Without Spiritual love for the Father, a state of unrepentance cannot exist in the sinful child of God
The false premise of the OP is that an unrepentant person can have great love for the Father ,yet go about their unrepentant happy go lucky, merry way with no negative impact whatsoever on their own heart due to a lost intimacy and joy with the Father they once enjoyed with such passion.
If you ever experience the negative gnawing at your heart impact of unrepentant sin just know that without love for God and an unrelenting desire to please Him you would not be feeling a thing .
And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,
Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; a
And die in the mount whither thou goest up............
Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Don’t stoop to @Hopeful’s level and preach “sinless perfection” to me, sir. You’re better than that. As long as we’re called to present ourselves as a daily sacrifice and to renew our mind (Rom. 12:1-2), as long as the old Ishmael nature is still persecuting the new Isaac nature, “even so it’s now”(Gal. 4:29), the struggle between the flesh and the spirit continues.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Don’t misquote this verse and challenge God. This is not a magic spell. Many sport teams have a group prayer with this verse right before they head off to the game, but it doesn’t guarantee a victory.
That is the typical child of Adam spiel.
Crucify, destroy the old man, (Gal 5:24, Rom 6:6), and be reborn as a child of God's seed. (1 John 3:9)
Tenchi
Member
You asked a series of questions about the Holy Spirit arising from a passage in Acts 2.
"Is the gift The Holy Spirit?
Is the gift the Holy Ghost?
Is the gift eternal life based on revelation of who Jesus is?
Why do I asked?
KJV: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Well what promise? Where is this particular promise mentioned in the old testament?"
The parts of the passage I underlined answer your questions pretty clearly, I think. The "promise" is the Holy Spirit, who was sent after the ascension of Christ as his "replacement" (so to speak).
John 16:7
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
In Acts 2, Peter himself cited where in the OT the promise of the Holy Spirit was issued:
Acts 2:16-17
16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh...
(See: Joel 2:28-32)
Who has received the promise of the Holy Spirit?
All those who by faith in Christ as Savior and submission to him as Lord are made "temples" of the Holy Spirit in whom the life of Christ is given to them. (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-16; John 16:7-14; 1 John 4:13, etc.)
What is the promise of the Holy Spirit? See above.
What is the gift of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit himself; he is the gift.
??? It is a fact that the Holy Spirit did come and go from people prior to the Atonement. Samson is a good example. Or Jeremiah. Or Daniel. Or Elijah. None of these men had a constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
In Acts 2, which is what I assume you mean by "here," we know the Holy Spirit did remain on the disciples of Jesus permanently because they say as much in their various letters, making his evident presence within the believer the chief means of discerning whether or not a person was genuinely saved.
Romans 8:9
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
1 John 4:13
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Hebrews 13:5
5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,"
It is the difference between intellectually agreeing that a chair can hold you and actually sitting in it.
Yes. But he is the refreshing himself. His presence within, the life and light that he is inside of you, refreshes, or, in the parlance of Paul, "regenerates" and "renews." (Titus 3:5)
There is no difference. Certainly, Paul offers nothing in this remark to Timothy to suggest that he thought there was.
I see nothing in God's word to cause me to "suspect" as you do.
Not sure what your point is here... The Holy Spirit "pours out" of himself what he is: life, power, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, etc. (Acts 1:8; Romans 8:10; Galatians 5:22-23)
The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Triune Godhead.
Just saying, "Not so" doesn't make it so. Show how my understanding is in error; don't simply assert that it is and then offer an alternative view. Such a response is merely dismissive which is hardly a refutation of what I pointed out.
Description does not equal prescription. It is a deeply fallacious way of understanding Scripture to take a description of an event in it and make that event prescriptive for believers when no such prescription is actually issued from the event. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that the event of Christ's baptism by John, and the supernatural response from God that attended it, we ought to expect will be God's response to us, too. We have only the description of the event, nothing more, no added "And so it will be for all who follow Christ," or some such statement. It is a sure route to false notions about spiritual living to force into the record of the event an expectation for all believers.
There is no separate "anointing" of the Holy Spirit following his indwelling the born-again person. To have him come to dwell within is to receive all that God can impart spiritually of Himself in the fullest degree. What remains is for the believer to live in daily, persistent submission to God (Romans 6:13-21; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-10; 1 Peter 5:6) that the Spirit may freely enter and transform every "room" in the "house" of the believer's life, conforming him/her to the character of Christ (Romans 8:29) and making of them a "vessel sanctified and prepared for the Master's use" (2 Timothy 2:21).
Because of the hardness of their hearts, many will not believe. In the record of Acts when some were saved and others not, those who were not had been "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18-22) and so had grown deaf, blind and hard to the saving truth of the Gospel (Hebrews 3:13). They also did not want to "come to the light lest their evil deeds should be exposed" (John 3:20) because they "loved the darkness rather than the light" (John 3:19). This is always, at bottom, why sinners refuse to be saved.
Pour out AND in. You're forming a false dichotomy here, I think, artificially making "pouring out" and "pouring in" mutually-exclusive of one another. They're not. The Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples in Acts 2, taking up permanent residence within them, making of them his "temples" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Romans 8:9-16).
If it was important to know, God would have seen to it that their words were recorded.
There was no overt, external event accompanying the Ethiopian eunuch's salvation. He did not speak in tongues, or roll about on the ground in a fit of convulsive hysteria (aka "slain in the Spirit"). Lydia, a seller of purple, was saved but she did not speak in tongues, or go out and perform a miraculous healing, or make a prophetic declaration. The Philippian jailer was saved but there was no overt manifestation of the Spirit when he was. And so on.
Tenchi
Member
And you believe this because? Scripture, please.
Salvation is a spiritual event, having nothing to do with the physical. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit " (John 3:6b). "The flesh wars against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh..." (Galatians 5:17). When a person tries to make physical and sensual the life and work of the Spirit, they must necessarily exchange the truly spiritual for a carnal counterfeit of it.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) Water baptism merely signifies outwardly what God has accomplished inwardly by the Spirit. It is a way of immediately connecting faith to action, which, as the apostle James has pointed out, is the kind of faith that all genuine believers are to exert (James 2:14-26). Never anywhere in the NT are we ever told to think of water baptism as salvific, necessary to a person being born-again.
Where is this stated in the account? Nowhere.
I think you're making far too much of water baptism.
And defending your ideas from challenge with "maybe" is a sure way to find yourself trapped in a bubble of mistaken belief that cannot be penetrated by the truth. To any and every challenge to error "maybe" can be offered in reply. Maybe the man in a restaurant clutching at his throat and staggering around, his eyes bulging in a face turning blue, just swallowed something that was too hot. Maybe he's choked with rage by something his meal companion said. Maybe he's not choking but having a heart attack. Maybe he accidently ate a beetle hidden in his salad and is in the throes of a fit of deep horror and disgust. Maybe he's just had news his house has burned to the ground with his entire family inside. Maybe he's possessed of a demon. Maybe he's an actor performing a choking scene for his table-mate. As you can see, all sorts of ideas can issue from "maybe" that actually confuse and obscure the truth, which is that the man is choking to death. I would urge you, then, to be very careful about employing "maybe" in coming to conclusions about anything.