If repentance from sin is an effect of salvation, then those who haven't repented of sin have not been saved.
Right ?
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is repentance needed for salvation?
- Thread starter reddogs
- Start date
Right ?
The early church interpreted the context of Mt. 25 as applying to Christians from all the nations. The ten virgins (=believers, some wise some foolish Mt. 25:1-13), the Man traveling to a far country (=Christ, rewarding the profitable Mt. 25:14-29), implies the Sheep and Goats are also wise and foolish believers. Notice both sheep and goats call Jesus "Lord" (Mt. 25:37, 44). Jesus invites the sheep to enter the kingdom "prepared for you from the foundation of the world" Mt. 25:34) which is only true of the elect (Eph. 1:4).
In English "nations" implies these are from all the nations of the earth, but Greek from which we get the English word "Ethnic" (1484 ethnos) and in Galatians 3:8 it refers to believers from all nations:
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. (Gal. 3:8-9 NKJ)
In light of the above facts, the scene is Christ's triumphant entry into Jerusalem, with both the Angels AND the raptured Church (=My Brethren Mt. 25:40, Christ is pointing to "these" seated with Him Mt. 25:45).
These are members of Christendom from all the nations His disciples preached to (Mt. 28:19), church goers who heard the gospel of Christ, but weren't saved before the rapture). Now they are being judged, the Sheep came to the aid of the persecuted church in the End Time, the Goats did not.
That might explain why their lack of charity to the church persecuted by the Antichrist Beast, merited eternal flame. Christ took it personal His children had the door closed in their time of need (Comp. Mark 9:41 and context).
Those who vicariously received Christ, are the Elect. The goats were the TARES inhabiting our churches, children of the devil.
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Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Well, yours is a legitimate second definition of salvation. I was addressing the definition of salvation from the stand point of what causes one to be saved initially.
May point: in either definition of salvation REPENTANCE is a result/effect of FAITH. We are saved by Faith Alone but Faith is never alone, it is accompanied by Repentance and Obedience.
I agree. If one doesn't believe, repentance wouldn't be thought of.
reddogs
Member
The accompanying works....
James 2:14-18
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Corinth77777
Member
Which comes first: Repent or Believe?
Which comes first, Repent or Believe? And, why is this important? Because if there is any significance in following the correct order, which I think there more than likely is, getting the order wrong whilst being convinced you have it right, will no doubt put you in a false sense of comfort...
These passages are a clip from the above url:
I will argue that there cannot be true faith (trust) without repentance (laying down your will in sorrow for having preferred your own ungodly will all your life). Opponents of this view suggest that following mental ascent, by God's sole decree, a person moves on to true faith, which leads to repentance. I will attempt to show from the Bible that this is error. In addition and whilst I can expect no other to summarily believe it - for it holds purely subjective perception - I know from personal experience that there can indeed be no true faith without first repenting because trying to do it this way several times produced no new person in me whatsoever (2 Corinthians 5:17).
God sent John the Baptist to preach repentance so that people may believe in the Christ. John's ministry was almost exclusively a baptism unto repentance. As such, John came to prepare people for the Kingdom of God (refer John 1) so that they may receive Him - Jesus - as Lord (God). Thus, repentance comes before sincere faith in Christ. It is the biblical model. It involves 'laying down' your own will before 'taking up' God's will for your life. You cannot take up God's will in everyday life without first laying down your own inasmuch as you cannot pick up one cup before first putting down another.
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Agreed
This is not a proof the repentance precedes faith or vise versa. Aside: When I say Faith precedes Repentance I am not referring to a chronological sequence; rather, in a logical sense as chronologically they occur at the same time.
Faith precedes Repentance logically as Faith is the cause of Repentance; Repentance is not the cause of Faith ... it doesn't even make sense that Repentance causes Faith. How can someone deciding to live a righteous life be the cause of Faith. Heck, a person may have no idea of who Christ is and yet you propose that person can repent of their sins and have Faith in Christ as a result even though he never heard of Christ. Scripture saying Faith cometh by hearing. Your stance is illogical. Your references to people being baptized unto repentance does not mention faith or and order. I am pretty sure people were not baptized unless they first had faith but your references do not clear up the matter.,
Amen. Repent is how we obey the Gospel.
Corinth77777
Member
.
I hope I can asked a question without being bitten.lol Sometimes people make it so hard for people who have earnest questions, as if they are to believe something without knowledge.
Is the gift The Holy Spirit?
Is the gift the Holy Ghost?
Is the gift eternal life based on revelation of who Jesus is?
Why do I asked?
KJV: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Well what promise? Where is this particular promise mentioned in the old testament?
If its the Holy Spirit one receives- seeing that Jesus breathed on His disciples before He decended saying "receive the Holy Spirit"...then theres the problem because they already had the Spirit.
My study in order to find and answer would be to answer those questions. Above.
My thought is when people believe who Jesus is they receive the Spirit. (Im not dogmaic about any of this but one must start with some type of premise to prove true or false.)
One could argue when He says who can forbid water to those who received the Spirit or (Ghost) "the same way we have" that is not speaking of the Spirit but the Ghost. Meaning the Holy Ghost falls on those who are sons of God, proving them to be sons,(having the Spirit) and annoiting them with power for service.
There are somethings that are said in which gives me this thought.
One, "Acts 2:17 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: "
He pours: "out of" His Spirit
Two, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Third, "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."
Fourth, Jesus's baptism in which many say we are to copy.
When He was baptized He was already a son
And His father confirms Him by saying: this is my son in whom I'm well pleased. Now if He was annoited with power here, then I would suspect that people receive the filling of the the Spirit which is the Holyghost at their water baptism. But by saying that -that does not mean all receive at water but some at their commitment to Christ.
My question is what is the gift of be Holy Ghost?
I hope I can asked a question without being bitten.lol Sometimes people make it so hard for people who have earnest questions, as if they are to believe something without knowledge.
Is the gift The Holy Spirit?
Is the gift the Holy Ghost?
Is the gift eternal life based on revelation of who Jesus is?
Why do I asked?
KJV: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Well what promise? Where is this particular promise mentioned in the old testament?
If its the Holy Spirit one receives- seeing that Jesus breathed on His disciples before He decended saying "receive the Holy Spirit"...then theres the problem because they already had the Spirit.
My study in order to find and answer would be to answer those questions. Above.
My thought is when people believe who Jesus is they receive the Spirit. (Im not dogmaic about any of this but one must start with some type of premise to prove true or false.)
One could argue when He says who can forbid water to those who received the Spirit or (Ghost) "the same way we have" that is not speaking of the Spirit but the Ghost. Meaning the Holy Ghost falls on those who are sons of God, proving them to be sons,(having the Spirit) and annoiting them with power for service.
There are somethings that are said in which gives me this thought.
One, "Acts 2:17 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: "
He pours: "out of" His Spirit
Two, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Third, "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."
Fourth, Jesus's baptism in which many say we are to copy.
When He was baptized He was already a son
And His father confirms Him by saying: this is my son in whom I'm well pleased. Now if He was annoited with power here, then I would suspect that people receive the filling of the the Spirit which is the Holyghost at their water baptism. But by saying that -that does not mean all receive at water but some at their commitment to Christ.
Corinth77777
Member
True
one-For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
two -For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. three-But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. four- For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. five-Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me...
Corinth77777
Member
I believe knowledge of ones carnal nature-
Creatures of habit and
ability to exercise our own desires outside of God's
And
Sininng
are 2 different things
This is the reason to remain in Christ Jesus
For this is the place where our habits can change IF we remain.
having knowlege of a will outside of God's
Is different from being in Christ
Because in Christ we either
exercising His will or where His will is done.
To exercise a right, outside of God, illustrates one is still outside of God.
I disagree.
Yes.
Is "having a knowledge of a will" a thing ?
Can you rephrase the last part of that ?
Very fare questions and I hope I answered all of them.
Eternal life depends if one has repented of their sin and are truly Spiritually born again from above, John 3:1-21; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 2:37-39.
There are actually seven gifts of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as scripture uses both. These are found in Isaiah 11:1-2; 1Corinthians 12:1-11; Ephesians 1:1-14.
The indwelling or other words the outpouring of the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost only came after Jesus ascended up to heaven and God sent His Spirit down to indwell all those who are Spiritually born again.
Matthew 3:11; John 3:5-6; 14:26; Acts 2; 11:16
In the OT only certain men God used were filled with the Holy Spirit for a time and purpose as the outpouring was not yet given until the day of Pentecost, Genesis 41:38; Numbers 11:24-27; Judges 3:10; 6:34; 11:29.
The disciples never had the indwelling until the day of Pentecost when Jesus appeared before them in the upper room, John 20:19-22.
I tried by showing you with scripture that the scriptures use both, Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost as they are the same being that of the very Spirit of Christ in whom is the one that does the outpouring coming from Him. You will have to figure this out the more you study.
Not everyone has been taught about the Baptism of Christ just as John the Baptist said: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.
Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.
John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word of God) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.
If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
Hey All,
Nobody should be afraid of asking a question Corinth77777. The fact that you are worried about "being bitten" is shameful to those who made you feel that way. That person, or persons, who made you feel like this has the issue, not you. Don't allow them to silence your voice. Amen?!
Now let me try and answer some as best I can.
"My question is what is the gift of be Holy Ghost?" Quote from Corinth77777
John 14:25-26 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, are all names of the third person of the Trinity, or triune Godhead. Jesus said the Father sent the Holy Spirit in Jesus' name. The Holy Spirit is sent to us to guide us, and help us remember what Jesus said.
"Is the gift The Holy Spirit?
Is the gift the Holy Ghost?"
Quote from Corinth77777
Yes, at least as how I understand the question. You can use either name. We mean the same person.
"Is the gift eternal life based on revelation of who Jesus is?" Quote from Corinth77777
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Is this what you are asking about? Jesus offers the gift of eternal life if we believe in Him. (John 3:16) The gift is the reward for those who believe.
"Why do I asked?
KJV: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Well what promise? Where is this particular promise mentioned in the old testament?" Quote from Corinth77777
Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
The promise is John 3:16. Along with the eternal life, is the promise of the Holy Spirit. Some of the people in the crowd were also the ones who called for Jesus' crucifixion. Peter is saying they and the rest are included in this promise. Salvation is for all, even those who oppressed Jesus.
The promise of salvation is first mentioned in the garden of Eden.
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
"If its the Holy Spirit one receives- seeing that Jesus breathed on His disciples before He decended saying "receive the Holy Spirit"...then theres the problem because they already had the Spirit." Quote from Corinth77777
Excellent observation. Most people pay no attention to the fact that Jesus breathed on them. But it is significant.
John 20:22-23 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Now think about this parallel in the Old Testament
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man became a living soul with the breath of life.
Jesus breathed on them to symbolize the disciples becoming new creatures in Christ.
I hope my answers will further your studies.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
>>>Is this what GOD and Jesus taught, or its manmade doctrine?
It is what God, through Jesus Christ, has taught.
It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)
If one is not sorry enough for their past sins that they won't do them again, they will be lost.
Jesus said..."Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:45-47)
reddogs
Member
Well i would say, if you dont have one you are lacking the other...
Ah, reddogs, stirring up the theological pot with a dash of repentance and salvation. Let's peel back the layers and see what's cooking in the world of Calvinism, shall we?
Now, reddogs is serving up some spicy verses from the good ol' King James Version, reminding us that repentance isn't just a suggestion—it's the main course on the menu of salvation! Jesus himself was like, "Repent, folks, or you'll miss out on the heavenly buffet!"
But hold onto your hats, 'cause the Acts apostles are joining the party, too! Peter's like, "Repent and be baptized, y'all!" And don't forget Acts 3:19—repentance is the secret sauce for sin-blotting and soul-refreshing!
So, in the grand feast of salvation, repentance is the main dish, folks. No shortcuts or drive-thru confessions here—only those who truly turn from sin and cling to Christ's righteousness get a seat at the heavenly banquet.
But hey, let's not get too caught up in theological recipes, folks. Remember, it's not just about repentance; it's about a wholehearted commitment to following Jesus. So, reddogs, keep stirring the pot, and let's see what other flavors of truth come bubbling to the surface!
Tenchi
Member
Acts 2:33-39 (NASB)
33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit as my right hand,
35 Until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'"
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
In context, the "promise" is clearly the Holy Spirit.
Oh? As the Holy Spirit did throughout the OT, he came and went from the disciples, only finally permanently making of them his "temple" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) after the atoning work of Jesus at Calvary.
I agree with this - though I would make a distinction between believing in who Christ was/is and trusting in him. Not just any old sort of belief in him is sufficient to be saved by him (James 2:18-26). Though God (the Holy Spirit) works to draw, illuminate and convict a person (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25), bringing them to the place where they can choose to trust in Christ, or not, he doesn't take up permanent residence within a person until they repent (change their mind/thinking), confess their sinfulness and need of a Savior, and trust in Christ as such (1 John 1:9; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 3:19).
The apostle Paul located conversion after repentance:
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 3:19-20
19 Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
In the first verse above, the Holy Spirit would be received after a person had repented. In the second verse, repentance preceded conversion (turning to) as well, which was marked by the converted person having Jesus Christ sent to them (in the Person of the Holy Spirit, called the "Spirit of Christ" in Romans 8:9).
There is no difference between these two; the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:17 (KJV)
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit ...
Acts 2:17 (NASB)
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'that I will pour forth of my Spirit...
Acts 2:17 (ESV)
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh...
All of what happened at Christ's baptism by John was to establish to those looking on the divine origin of Jesus. It is making too much of the event, I think, to assert from it that water baptism is required in order to receive the Holy Spirit. Nothing in the record of the moment in the Gospels indicates that what happened to Jesus was to stand as a pattern for all who would be saved.
Acts 19:5-7
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them...
Here, though the people had been baptized, it wasn't until after Paul laid his hands on them that they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
Here, the Holy Spirit was "poured out" on a group of Gentiles before water baptism had occurred.
Acts 8:35-38
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Here, there is no mention at all of the Holy Spirit coming up the Ethiopian eunuch, though he is baptized in water.
It seems evident to me from these passages (and others) that water baptism is not necessary to receiving the Holy Spirit, having to happen in order to receive him. In the instances described above, the Holy Spirit came upon people before and after baptism, by the laying on of apostolic hands and not, and, in the case of the eunuch, without any outward sign at all of the Spirit having come upon him.
reddogs
Member
AI reminds of the old adage, even a broken clock is right once a day...