Is repentance needed for salvation?

[Tenchi]

Don’t stoop to @Hopeful’s level and preach “sinless perfection” to me, sir.

??? I'm not.

You’re better than that.

I hope so. Hopeful and I have had several lengthy exchanges about the error of his "sinless perfection" belief. You can be sure, then, that I am not espousing such a view in my remarks to you.

As long as we’re called to present ourselves as a daily sacrifice and to renew our mind (Rom. 12:1-2), as long as the old Ishmael nature is still persecuting the new Isaac nature, “even so it’s now”(Gal. 4:29), the struggle between the flesh and the spirit continues.

While sinless perfection is impossible this side of eternity, a far greater degree of holiness is possible for the born-again person than is commonly believed. In fact, God's word gives us very good cause to think that sin should be increasingly the exception in the life of a spiritually-mature child of God rather than the rule. Any believer trying to pass him/herself off as spiritually-mature apart from a life that is largely sin-free is a charlatan, a hypocrite, and the opposite of what they claim to be.

The apostle Paul described a terrible struggle in Romans 7 but in both the chapter before and after Romans 7, he lays out the way to avoid this struggle entirely. The struggle of Romans 7 is not to be the normal, unchanging experience of the spiritually-mature Christian person.

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:6-7
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Romans 6:12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 8:12-13
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:16
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Galatians 5:24
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

And so on.

Don’t misquote this verse and challenge God. This is not a magic spell. Many sport teams have a group prayer with this verse right before they head off to the game, but it doesn’t guarantee a victory.

??? I never wrote anything about the verse being a "magic spell," nor did I misquote the verse.

What difference does a sports team's erroneous practice of prayer make to the truth of what Paul wrote?

You seem very...touchy about spiritual matters. Are you okay?

 

[hawkman]

It is a fact that the Holy Spirit did come and go from people prior to the Atonement. Samson is a good example.

I agree with the above .

Or Jeremiah. Or Daniel. Or Elijah. None of these men had a constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

How would you know whether or not these three had a constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit ?
Jeremiah 1

4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[Josef]

They needed a change of attitude
To bring forth fruit they would come with the right attitude.

Why are they coming to a baptism with belief that it won't help them.

Hey All,
Good point. I would add that they valued the fruit above the sacrifice.
First fruits was the right attitude.
Sacrificing the first fruit was an act of faith that more would be provided.
Sacrificing anything else was a sacrifice of abundance, and as such not a sacrifice.
They going through the motions of sacrifice.
But their motions lacked meaning.
They were empty gestures.



Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

??? I'm not.

I hope so. Hopeful and I have had several lengthy exchanges about the error of his "sinless perfection" belief. You can be sure, then, that I am not espousing such a view in my remarks to you.

Then why did you question sin nature? Did Christ die not for our sins? (1 Cor. 15:3) How are there still "desires of the flesh" in your own quote of Gal. 5:16 if such sin nature were supposedly buried in the past?

While sinless perfection is impossible this side of eternity, a far greater degree of holiness is possible for the born-again person than is commonly believed. In fact, God's word gives us very good cause to think that sin should be increasingly the exception in the life of a spiritually-mature child of God rather than the rule. Any believer trying to pass him/herself off as spiritually-mature apart from a life that is largely sin-free is a charlatan, a hypocrite, and the opposite of what they claim to be.

The apostle Paul described a terrible struggle in Romans 7 but in both the chapter before and after Romans 7, he lays out the way to avoid this struggle entirely. The struggle of Romans 7 is not to be the normal, unchanging experience of the spiritually-mature Christian person.

A real spiritually mature Christian would be acutely aware of sin. The more spiritually mature you are, the further you have walked with the Lord, the more sensitive you would be to the gravity of sin. You'd realize the gravity and consequence of sin, how much it has cost, how indebted you are to Christ who took the wrath you and I deserve. As long as we live in this sinful world, the struggle continues, and more intense than ever in these days.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

??? I never wrote anything about the verse being a "magic spell," nor did I misquote the verse.

What difference does a sports team's erroneous practice of prayer make to the truth of what Paul wrote?

You seem very...touchy about spiritual matters. Are you okay?

Then for what purpose did you quote it? What's the real context of this verse? Care to specify the "all things" therein?

 

[Corinth77777]

Sinless perfection - should one strive for sinless perfection.

Or

Should one learn to depend on and trust God?

This phrase came to me:

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Tenchi]

A real spiritually mature Christian would be acutely aware of sin. The more spiritually mature you are, the further you have walked with the Lord, the more sensitive you would be to the gravity of sin. You'd realize the gravity and consequence of sin, how much it has cost, how indebted you are to Christ who took the wrath you and I deserve. As long as we live in this sinful world, the struggle continues, and more intense than ever in these days.

What does God's word describe of the spiritually-mature person? Is it merely that they are more aware of their sin, that they feel its corruption, its "gravity," more keenly? No. The spiritually-mature person is also - and far more importantly - increasingly sanctified in their walk with God, more and more free of an "intense struggle" with sin, by faith living in (not just knowing about) the truth of who they are in Jesus Christ.

Read:

Romans 6
Romans 8:9-16
2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Galatians 5:16, 22-25
Hebrews 12:14b
1 Peter 1:15-16
Ephesians 5:1-13

The apostle Paul wrote Romans 6 and Romans 8:1-16 in description of the kind of experience in which the spiritually-mature believer is supposed to be living all the time, free of the power of sin and Self, consciously and constantly under the Spirit's control and led by him into a life of greater and greater holiness. This is what marks the spiritually-mature believer, not just gratefulness to God and sensitivity to sin.

The believer who has walked well with God for a long time "sees" Him with growing clarity; day-by-day He enlarges in their view and, as He does, the full extent of their smallness, weakness, ignorance, and sin is revealed. But this clarity is largely the consequence of their lives becoming more holy (Hebrews 12:14b). Strangely, the holier a person becomes, the more they recognize how unholy they are in God's eyes. But this doesn't make them feel condemned (Romans 8:1), only joyful in the knowledge of the grace, mercy and love of their Maker, who, for Christ's sake, has forgiven them and accepts them always as His own (Ephesians 1:6; Hebrews 13:5b; John 6:37). It also prompts a more zealous pursuit of holiness, the believer eager to "see" more of God as sin in their life is gone and ceases to obscure Him.

 

[Josef]

Sinless perfection - should one strive for sinless perfection.

Or

Should one learn to depend on and trust God?

This phrase came to me:

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Hey All,
Corinth77777, is this really a dilemma?

"Sinless perfection - should one strive for sinless perfection.

Or

Should one learn to depend on and trust God?" Quote from Corintg77777

Are we not called to do both?


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Then this:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Why is obedience better than sacrifice?

Obedience does not require sacrifice.


Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sinless perfection - should one strive for sinless perfection.
Or
Should one learn to depend on and trust God?

Why is that an either-or question ?
You can't have one without having the other.

This phrase came to me:
Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Good.
Donate out of love for your neighbors.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Yes, He will !

 

[GodsGrace]

You asked a series of questions about the Holy Spirit arising from a passage in Acts 2.

"Is the gift The Holy Spirit?
Is the gift the Holy Ghost?
Is the gift eternal life based on revelation of who Jesus is?

Why do I asked?
KJV: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Well what promise? Where is this particular promise mentioned in the old testament?"

The parts of the passage I underlined answer your questions pretty clearly, I think. The "promise" is the Holy Spirit, who was sent after the ascension of Christ as his "replacement" (so to speak).

John 16:7
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

In Acts 2, Peter himself cited where in the OT the promise of the Holy Spirit was issued:

Acts 2:16-17
16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh...

(See: Joel 2:28-32)

Who has received the promise of the Holy Spirit?

All those who by faith in Christ as Savior and submission to him as Lord are made "temples" of the Holy Spirit in whom the life of Christ is given to them. (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-16; John 16:7-14; 1 John 4:13, etc.)

What is the promise of the Holy Spirit? See above.



What is the gift of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit himself; he is the gift.



??? It is a fact that the Holy Spirit did come and go from people prior to the Atonement. Samson is a good example. Or Jeremiah. Or Daniel. Or Elijah. None of these men had a constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 2, which is what I assume you mean by "here," we know the Holy Spirit did remain on the disciples of Jesus permanently because they say as much in their various letters, making his evident presence within the believer the chief means of discerning whether or not a person was genuinely saved.

Romans 8:9
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

1 John 4:13
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Hebrews 13:5
5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,"



It is the difference between intellectually agreeing that a chair can hold you and actually sitting in it.



Yes. But he is the refreshing himself. His presence within, the life and light that he is inside of you, refreshes, or, in the parlance of Paul, "regenerates" and "renews." (Titus 3:5)



There is no difference. Certainly, Paul offers nothing in this remark to Timothy to suggest that he thought there was.



I see nothing in God's word to cause me to "suspect" as you do.



Not sure what your point is here... The Holy Spirit "pours out" of himself what he is: life, power, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, etc. (Acts 1:8; Romans 8:10; Galatians 5:22-23)



The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Triune Godhead.



Just saying, "Not so" doesn't make it so. Show how my understanding is in error; don't simply assert that it is and then offer an alternative view. Such a response is merely dismissive which is hardly a refutation of what I pointed out.

Description does not equal prescription. It is a deeply fallacious way of understanding Scripture to take a description of an event in it and make that event prescriptive for believers when no such prescription is actually issued from the event. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that the event of Christ's baptism by John, and the supernatural response from God that attended it, we ought to expect will be God's response to us, too. We have only the description of the event, nothing more, no added "And so it will be for all who follow Christ," or some such statement. It is a sure route to false notions about spiritual living to force into the record of the event an expectation for all believers.



There is no separate "anointing" of the Holy Spirit following his indwelling the born-again person. To have him come to dwell within is to receive all that God can impart spiritually of Himself in the fullest degree. What remains is for the believer to live in daily, persistent submission to God (Romans 6:13-21; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-10; 1 Peter 5:6) that the Spirit may freely enter and transform every "room" in the "house" of the believer's life, conforming him/her to the character of Christ (Romans 8:29) and making of them a "vessel sanctified and prepared for the Master's use" (2 Timothy 2:21).



Because of the hardness of their hearts, many will not believe. In the record of Acts when some were saved and others not, those who were not had been "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18-22) and so had grown deaf, blind and hard to the saving truth of the Gospel (Hebrews 3:13). They also did not want to "come to the light lest their evil deeds should be exposed" (John 3:20) because they "loved the darkness rather than the light" (John 3:19). This is always, at bottom, why sinners refuse to be saved.



Pour out AND in. You're forming a false dichotomy here, I think, artificially making "pouring out" and "pouring in" mutually-exclusive of one another. They're not. The Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples in Acts 2, taking up permanent residence within them, making of them his "temples" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Romans 8:9-16).



If it was important to know, God would have seen to it that their words were recorded.



There was no overt, external event accompanying the Ethiopian eunuch's salvation. He did not speak in tongues, or roll about on the ground in a fit of convulsive hysteria (aka "slain in the Spirit"). Lydia, a seller of purple, was saved but she did not speak in tongues, or go out and perform a miraculous healing, or make a prophetic declaration. The Philippian jailer was saved but there was no overt manifestation of the Spirit when he was. And so on.

Hi Tenchi
Great post. Agreed on all except one item:

Jesus did say at His baptism that He must be baptized to fulfill all righteousness when John the Baptist asked Him why He was getting baptized....

Why don't you think this is correct?

In the face of John's reluctance to baptize Him (Matt. 3:14), Jesus said, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Jesus and John will together do all that God has determined to be right for them.

 

[Corinth77777]

Sinless perfection - should one strive for sinless perfection.

Or

Should one learn to depend on and trust God?

This phrase came to me:

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 6:9


9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

How many times was the Father of Faith, Abraham Justified before God?

Hey All,
Corinth77777, is this really a dilemma?

"Sinless perfection - should one strive for sinless perfection.

Or

Should one learn to depend on and trust God?" Quote from Corintg77777

Are we not called to do both?


Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Then this:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Why is obedience better than sacrifice?

Obedience does not require sacrifice.


Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Do you think God prefers striving for sinless perfection, or for you to Trust and depend on Him?

The first one seems to lead into legalism

But the second is like the passage - all things are possible with God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What does God's word describe of the spiritually-mature person? Is it merely that they are more aware of their sin, that they feel its corruption, its "gravity," more keenly? No. The spiritually-mature person is also - and far more importantly - increasingly sanctified in their walk with God, more and more free of an "intense struggle" with sin, by faith living in (not just knowing about) the truth of who they are in Jesus Christ.

Read:

Romans 6
Romans 8:9-16
2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Galatians 5:16, 22-25
Hebrews 12:14b
1 Peter 1:15-16
Ephesians 5:1-13

The apostle Paul wrote Romans 6 and Romans 8:1-16 in description of the kind of experience in which the spiritually-mature believer is supposed to be living all the time, free of the power of sin and Self, consciously and constantly under the Spirit's control and led by him into a life of greater and greater holiness. This is what marks the spiritually-mature believer, not just gratefulness to God and sensitivity to sin.

The believer who has walked well with God for a long time "sees" Him with growing clarity; day-by-day He enlarges in their view and, as He does, the full extent of their smallness, weakness, ignorance, and sin is revealed. But this clarity is largely the consequence of their lives becoming more holy (Hebrews 12:14b). Strangely, the holier a person becomes, the more they recognize how unholy they are in God's eyes. But this doesn't make them feel condemned (Romans 8:1), only joyful in the knowledge of the grace, mercy and love of their Maker, who, for Christ's sake, has forgiven them and accepts them always as His own (Ephesians 1:6; Hebrews 13:5b; John 6:37). It also prompts a more zealous pursuit of holiness, the believer eager to "see" more of God as sin in their life is gone and ceases to obscure Him.

Sir, I appreciate your input, but you forgot one key aspect. To be honest, I don't feel condemned, quite the opposite, I feel serene, peace and calm. I used to be addicted to video games, junk food and soft porn, now all of those are left behind, they have no power over me as they're no longer attractive to me, God has opened my eyes to see the abominations they really are. The condemnation comes not from God, but from the world, from your own friends, church and family, so tell me, how would you respond to their disapproval? So far in all your posts there's only your own fellowship and relationship with God, nobody else is in the picture, you're on your own walk with God and rejoice in Him all by yourself. Had you ever engaged in any real issues, confronted any real conflicts in your own congregation, on your own watch, you'd understand what this "intense struggle" is, it's not just a struggle with your own demons, but with demons all around you, with people you care about the most. You can leave Satan alone, but Satan doesn't leave you alone.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hebrews 6:9


9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

How many times was the Father of Faith, Abraham Justified before God?
, possible
Do you think God prefers striving for sinless perfection, or for you to Trust and depend on Him?

The first one seems to lead into legalism

But the second is like the passage - all things are possible with God.

Why isn't sinless perfection, perfect obedience to God, possible ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sir, I appreciate your input, but you forgot one key aspect. To be honest, I don't feel condemned, quite the opposite, I feel serene, peace and calm. I used to be addicted to video games, junk food and soft porn, now all of those are left behind, they have no power over me as they're no longer attractive to me, God has opened my eyes to see the abominations they really are. The condemnation comes not from God, but from the world, from your own friends, church and family, so tell me, how would you respond to their disapproval? So far in all your posts there's only your own fellowship and relationship with God, nobody else is in the picture, you're on your own walk with God and rejoice in Him all by yourself. Had you ever engaged in any real issues, confronted any real conflicts in your own congregation, on your own watch, you'd understand what this "intense struggle" is, it's not just a struggle with your own demons, but with demons all around you, with people you care about the most. You can leave Satan alone, but Satan doesn't leave you alone.

Interesting convo.
Both you AND Tenchi are correct.

 

[Josef]

How many times was the Father of Faith, Abraham Justified before God?

Do you think God prefers striving for sinless perfection, or for you to Trust and depend on Him?

The first one seems to lead into legalism

But the second is like the passage - all things are possible with God.

Hey All,
When did obedience become legalistic?
We cannot do it, so don't try?
We actually have sinless perfection in our new creature before God, because we have been cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

I believe all is an absolute term; that it means ee are cleansed from every past, present, and future sin. This is what allows us to come before God's throne in prayer instead of hiding in the bushes like Adam and Eve.
That said, our responsibility is to obey God's Word. I will never be perfect in this earthen vessel. But I am called to try. By trying to be sinless, I believe I sin less. It makes me stop and consider my choices before I do something stupid.
What does my flesh want to do?
What is the right thing to do?
If I can stop and think about it, I can do the right thing.
So yes, trying to be perfect, even though I will never achieve it, has benefits.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Something else to chew on:

If we are sinlessly perfect, why do we still need grace in our lives?

Why do I need unmerited favor if I have no sin in my life?

Why do the first words of Paul's letters start with "grace" if I already am sinless and perfect?

The premise of sinless perfection falls so flat when confronted with the facts.

The mere boast that one thinks themselves perfect, is a sin of pride.

Jonah called it a "lying vanity."

Keep walking everybody
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Corinth77777]

Sir, I appreciate your input, but you forgot one key aspect. To be honest, I don't feel condemned, quite the opposite, I feel serene, peace and calm. I used to be addicted to video games, junk food and soft porn, now all of those are left behind, they have no power over me as they're no longer attractive to me, God has opened my eyes to see the abominations they really are. The condemnation comes not from God, but from the world, from your own friends, church and family, so tell me, how would you respond to their disapproval? So far in all your posts there's only your own fellowship and relationship with God, nobody else is in the picture, you're on your own walk with God and rejoice in Him all by yourself. Had you ever engaged in any real issues, confronted any real conflicts in your own congregation, on your own watch, you'd understand what this "intense struggle" is, it's not just a struggle with your own demons, but with demons all around you, with people you care about the most. You can leave Satan alone, but Satan doesn't leave you alone.

Don't know exactly what the argument is
But True to the point that Satan is busy. And He don't leave you alone.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Don't know exactly what the argument is
But True to the point that Satan is busy. And He don't leave you alone.

The argument is that this world is a battleground, not a playground, there's always a struggle with the dark spirits. In fact, Satan will leave you alone only if you're an ineffective, spineless milktoast, the more active and outspoken you are in your faith, the more attention you'll draw from Satan, and more pushback you'll experience.

 

[Corinth77777]

The argument is that this world is a battleground, not a playground, there's always a struggle with the dark spirits. In fact, Satan will leave you alone only if you're an ineffective, spineless milktoast, the more active and outspoken you are in your faith, the more attention you'll draw from Satan, and more pushback you'll experience.

I do say its a fight..prayed about a particular thought He places in my mind and ask God to remove it.

 

[Tenchi]

Sir, I appreciate your input, but you forgot one key aspect. To be honest, I don't feel condemned, quite the opposite, I feel serene, peace and calm. I used to be addicted to video games, junk food and soft porn, now all of those are left behind, they have no power over me as they're no longer attractive to me, God has opened my eyes to see the abominations they really are. The condemnation comes not from God, but from the world, from your own friends, church and family, so tell me, how would you respond to their disapproval?

Is the condemnation of friends and family the "key aspect" you say I've forgotten?

I don't understand what you mean by "disapproval"? Of what, exactly, are they disapproving?

So far in all your posts there's only your own fellowship and relationship with God, nobody else is in the picture, you're on your own walk with God and rejoice in Him all by yourself.

In discussions on subforums on CF.net the back-and-forth tends to be pretty limited in its scope. You aren't going to ever get a fully-orbed description of my life from any one thread in which I've participated. What may seem to you, then, to be the case in my life spiritually, judging from the content of just one thread, is not going to be anything like the actual state-of-affairs of my life.

When one is enjoying God well, when one's fellowship with Him is daily growing, inevitably one's life turns outward toward others, opening to them in love and service. To love God as He has commanded always involves loving those whom He loves, which are all the people around me. There is, then, no "walking with God and rejoicing in Him all by myself."

Galatians 5:13-14
13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Had you ever engaged in any real issues, confronted any real conflicts in your own congregation, on your own watch, you'd understand what this "intense struggle" is, it's not just a struggle with your own demons, but with demons all around you, with people you care about the most. You can leave Satan alone, but Satan doesn't leave you alone.

There is no spiritual leader in any church that hasn't had to deal, at some point, with the teeth and claws of their siblings in Christ. I'm no exception. In fact, my wife and I just recently weathered a very...difficult situation at the church we've attended for over a decade. The trouble wasn't with the laity but with church leaders who, knowing to do good, were refusing to do it (James 4:17).

Again and again over the past ten years I'd remonstrated with these leaders, from God's word urging them to the things God has commanded of them. But passively neglecting to do what is right doesn't feel like actively doing what is wrong. Not pulling the weeds that spring up naturally in one's garden doesn't feel or look the same as going into the garden and planting crab grass, thistles or dandelions in it. Of course, in both cases, the garden ends up full of weeds...

Anyway, though I'd shown years of patience to my fellow church leaders, urging them to godly action, praying for them, and leading by example, they remained unwilling to shift from their disobedient-to-God status quo. Finally, it became very clear that these men weren't merely requiring time to grow spiritually but were in open, conscious, willful rebellion to God. As this became evident, my wife and I realized we couldn't continue in the church - and the sinful leaders were determined that we shouldn't.

I share all this to let you know, Carry_Your_Name, that I am well-acquainted with the "demons all around you." I'm able to say, though, that God is far more than equal compensation for the hurt I've sustained at the cruel hands of fellow believers. Really, given how miserable and nasty Christians can be, it's this fact that makes being a spiritual leader possible. Without the life of the Spirit enabling me, without the constant refuge in God that I have, serving the frequently selfish, ignorant and sometimes outright vicious children of God would be impossible (at least, for me).