Is repentance needed for salvation?

[Josef]

Jonah 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not "of this world".
Are you ?
I hope not !

Sorry Hopeful, I misspoke.
Of course we're not of this world, but we function in it.
Let's not get silly over this,,,,
we take a car out of the mud, we wash it, we don't put it back in the mud.
But as we drive around, dust builds up. I mean this by how the world works.....it's simple physics.

Correct, as no man can serve two masters (Matt 6:24)

And indeed you're correct.
This is why those that are serving God are doing just that.
We can't be serving satan at the same time.
All everyone is saying is that we will sin occasionally.
This does not mean we are SERVING satan.
To serve satan means to do his will....we certainly are not.
When we fall into a sin, our intent is to serve God, but we fail.
This is why John and Jesus have given us a way of escape.
The way of escape of for saved persons....not for the unsaved.
They're already lost and do not need a way of escape.


A child makes a pancake breakfast for his mom.
He burns the pancakes.
He intended to make them good.
IF he intended to burn them, he would be a mean child,
but if he made a mistake, he's a good child that made a mistake...
just like we sin at times.
It's not because satan is ruling our life,
it's due to our fragile nature.

Again:

1 John 1:7-9

7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we walk in the light the blood of Jesus CLEANSES us from all sin.
Cleanses - present tense

. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

We cannot say we have no sin.
It means we are deceiving ourself.
And this is not the truth.

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we CONFESS our sins.
CONFESS - present tense

He is faithful and just to FORGIVE US our sins.
TO FORGIVE - present tense

And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
CLEANSE US - present tense

Why do you think John was using the present tense as if sins would be ongoing
instead of using the past tense because he believed the saved would never sin again?

That would appear to be the case.
If you are not serving God, you are not serving God every moment of the day.

Everyone either walks in the "flesh" or in the Spirit constantly.

Answered above.

If one isn't free from sin, where is the faith, trust, and belief ?

The faith, trust and belief is in knowing that IF I do sin, Jesus will be there to pick me up and save me.
Salvation is ongoing. We will not actually receive our salvation till our death.
I was saved 2 timothy 1:9
I am being saved 1 Cor 1:18
I will be saved Romans 5:9-10

Is there really a difference between "righteous" and "free from sin" ?
I can't think of any righteous sins.

I NEVER said there are righteous sins.
I said that following Jesus will lead us to a righteous life.
NOT a life free from sin.

Following Jesus let's us be right with God.
Being right with God does not make us perfect.
I don't know any verse that states that man will be perfect after salvation.

Would that be water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?
Or the baptism of the Holy Ghost for repenting of sin and getting baptized in Jesus' name ?
Or are you referring to one of the other baptism's in scripture ?

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

History speaks of the baptism that frees us from past sins.
As I think you know, some of the early Christians did believe that after baptism the saved person would stop sinning.
This did not happen, hence - confession.

We are told throughout scripture to confess our sins.
Because persons were still sinning after being baptized.

The letters were written very close to Jesus' resurrection.
And the gospels follow in their teaching.

To confess our sins means that we will still sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sorry Hopeful, I misspoke.
Of course we're not of this world, but we function in it.

So did Jesus.

Let's not get silly over this,,,,
we take a car out of the mud, we wash it, we don't put it back in the mud.
But as we drive around, dust builds up. I mean this by how the world works.....it's simple physics.

Does a car have a mind of its own ?
Man does, and can serve who ever he chooses.

And indeed you're correct.
This is why those that are serving God are doing just that.
We can't be serving satan at the same time.
All everyone is saying is that we will sin occasionally.

Not if you repented of sin.

This does not mean we are SERVING satan.

Yes it does !

To serve satan means to do his will....we certainly are not.

Sinners do satan's will.

When we fall into a sin, our intent is to serve God, but we fail.
This is why John and Jesus have given us a way of escape.
The way of escape of for saved persons....not for the unsaved.
They're already lost and do not need a way of escape.

So the unsaved cannot escape.
Were we not all unsaved at one time ?
If the saved are acting like the unsaved, what is the "rule" God will use on the day of judgement ?
He will say...Who was following the Good Shepherd ?
If neither the saved or the unsaved were following Jesus, none will be saved.
God doesn't foster or accept disobedience.

A child makes a pancake breakfast for his mom.
He burns the pancakes.
He intended to make them good.
IF he intended to burn them, he would be a mean child,
but if he made a mistake, he's a good child that made a mistake...
just like we sin at times.
It's not because satan is ruling our life,
it's due to our fragile nature.

You can't legitimize sin.
Sins are choices to abrogate your love for God.

Again:
1 John 1:7-9
7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we walk in the light the blood of Jesus CLEANSES us from all sin.
Cleanses - present tense

And the result is.........a man free from sin !!!!!!
By remaining in God, the light, he can always be free from sin.

. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
We cannot say we have no sin.
It means we are deceiving ourself.
And this is not the truth.

The truth about those who walk in darkness doesn't apply to those who walk in the light.
It is an either-or situation.
Walk in the light, wherein is no sin.
Or walk in the darkness, wherein is no GOD !

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we CONFESS our sins.
CONFESS - present tense

Those cleansed from all unrighteousness can say they have no sin !
Keep walking in the light-God, and you will never sin again !

He is faithful and just to FORGIVE US our sins.
TO FORGIVE - present tense

Sounds good to the "any man" of 1 John 2;1
The Advocate is there for anyone wishing to follow Him.
But the double minded man is going to be cast into the lake of tire.

And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
CLEANSE US - present tense

Thanks be to God for providing everything we need to be perfect !
Keep walking in the light-God, and you will never change back to a sinner !

Why do you think John was using the present tense as if sins would be ongoing
instead of using the past tense because he believed the saved would never sin again?

Because the cleansing exists.

Answered above.

"Double mindedness..."

The faith, trust and belief is in knowing that IF I do sin, Jesus will be there to pick me up and save me.
Salvation is ongoing. We will not actually receive our salvation till our death.

Why nor just repent of sin, and hold to it: instead of wavering like a reed in the wind ?

I was saved 2 timothy 1:9
I am being saved 1 Cor 1:18
I will be saved Romans 5:9-10

So what ?
Salvation will be granted on the day of the Lord.
the "wavering" will be damned.

I NEVER said there are righteous sins.

I didn't say you had.

I said that following Jesus will lead us to a righteous life.
NOT a life free from sin.

Is there a difference between righteousness and sinlessness ?
No.
Sin manifest unrighteousness.
Unrighteousness is manifested by sin.

Following Jesus let's us be right with God.
Being right with God does not make us perfect.

Don't be deceived.
Nobody but the righteous are "right with God" !

I don't know any verse that states that man will be perfect after salvation.

After the day of judgement all whose names are in the book of life will be perfect.
If you meant..."I don't know any verse that states that man will be perfect after conversion."...how about...""There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1) ?
And...“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

History speaks of the baptism that frees us from past sins.
As I think you know, some of the early Christians did believe that after baptism the saved person would stop sinning.

All the Christians believed it then, and still do.

This did not happen, hence - confession.

A way was made to get the posers to become real Christians.

We are told throughout scripture to confess our sins.
Because persons were still sinning after being baptized.

The posers needed to become real Christians, or the church would become a cesspool.

The letters were written very close to Jesus' resurrection.
And the gospels follow in their teaching.
To confess our sins means that we will still sin.

Only those continuing to walk in darkness need to confess sins.
Start walking in the light, and you won't have any sin to confess to God.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

Sinners are still dead in trespasses and sins.
They still walk according to the course of this world.
According to the prince of the power of the air that works in the children of disobedience.

Come out from among them.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Hopeful 2, would you tell us the secret you found to be sinless. There are a lot of us here who have prayed the sinner's prayer that are telling you being perfect is impossible while in the flesh. And not only us, the apostles Paul and John tell us they consider themselves sinners saved by grace through faith in Jesus as well. I have had a personal battle with sin my whole life. I have come to the understanding that God has to fix me. He called me like I am. I cannot change of my own accord. I cannot make myself righteous. So it is His job. Plus I am relying on the all in 1 John 1:9. They are no longer accounted to me as I am covered by Jesus. But it causes me grief that I still sin.

You obviously have a different truth. Please explain what you found, and how it works.

Instead of debating with us, share with us. Thanks.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Hopeful 2, would you tell us the secret you found to be sinless.

Have a real repentance from sin.
A permanent-never do it again-done with satan, kind of repentance.

There are a lot of us here who have prayed the sinner's prayer that are telling you being perfect is impossible while in the flesh.

There is no "sinners prayer" in the bible.
Peter taught/commanded..."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
And, the "flesh" can be destroyed by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Rom 6:6)
Paul wrote..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
That crucifixion occurs at your "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-4)

And not only us, the apostles Paul and John tell us they consider themselves sinners saved by grace through faith in Jesus as well.

All who will be saved on the day of Christ's return were sinners.
But their repentance from sin and rebirth from God's seed (1 John 3:9) made them non-sinners.
Neither John nor Paul admitted to sin after their conversion from Judaism.

I have had a personal battle with sin my whole life. I have come to the understanding that God has to fix me.

That fix involves the death of the old you, (Rom 6:6) and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

He called me like I am. I cannot change of my own accord.

It is entirely in your hands whether or not you will turn from sin and be healed !
God doesn't "work with" the unrepentant.

I cannot make myself righteous. So it is His job. Plus I am relying on the all in 1 John 1:9. They are no longer accounted to me as I am covered by Jesus. But it causes me grief that I still sin.

As God doesn't even hear sinners, (John 9:31, 1 Peter 3:12) your repentance is necessary before anything can happen.

You obviously have a different truth. Please explain what you found, and how it works.

"My" truth is the truth Jesus said could free us from service to sin/committing sin...in John 8:32-34.
Have any of the "truths" you held previously said it could free you from sin ?

Instead of debating with us, share with us. Thanks.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Repentance from sin
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for both the remission of past sins and the destruction of the "flesh".
Being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life-rebirth.
Reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Walk in the light.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
That is the simple formula.
Of course there is study, prayer, reading, fellowship, charity, helping others, etc.
Of course there is also avoiding the things, places, and people who divert your mind from God.
All of it is encapsulated with one word.
LOVE !

 

[GodsGrace]

So did Jesus.

Does a car have a mind of its own ?
Man does, and can serve who ever he chooses.

Not if you repented of sin.

Yes it does !

Sinners do satan's will.

So the unsaved cannot escape.
Were we not all unsaved at one time ?
If the saved are acting like the unsaved, what is the "rule" God will use on the day of judgement ?
He will say...Who was following the Good Shepherd ?
If neither the saved or the unsaved were following Jesus, none will be saved.
God doesn't foster or accept disobedience.

You can't legitimize sin.
Sins are choices to abrogate your love for God.

And the result is.........a man free from sin !!!!!!
By remaining in God, the light, he can always be free from sin.

The truth about those who walk in darkness doesn't apply to those who walk in the light.
It is an either-or situation.
Walk in the light, wherein is no sin.
Or walk in the darkness, wherein is no GOD !

Those cleansed from all unrighteousness can say they have no sin !
Keep walking in the light-God, and you will never sin again !

Sounds good to the "any man" of 1 John 2;1
The Advocate is there for anyone wishing to follow Him.
But the double minded man is going to be cast into the lake of tire.

Thanks be to God for providing everything we need to be perfect !
Keep walking in the light-God, and you will never change back to a sinner !

Because the cleansing exists.

"Double mindedness..."

Why nor just repent of sin, and hold to it: instead of wavering like a reed in the wind ?

So what ?
Salvation will be granted on the day of the Lord.
the "wavering" will be damned.

I didn't say you had.

Is there a difference between righteousness and sinlessness ?
No.
Sin manifest unrighteousness.
Unrighteousness is manifested by sin.

Don't be deceived.
Nobody but the righteous are "right with God" !

After the day of judgement all whose names are in the book of life will be perfect.
If you meant..."I don't know any verse that states that man will be perfect after conversion."...how about...""There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1) ?
And...“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

All the Christians believed it then, and still do.

A way was made to get the posers to become real Christians.

The posers needed to become real Christians, or the church would become a cesspool.

Only those continuing to walk in darkness need to confess sins.
Start walking in the light, and you won't have any sin to confess to God.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

Sinners are still dead in trespasses and sins.
They still walk according to the course of this world.
According to the prince of the power of the air that works in the children of disobedience.

Come out from among them.

Come out from among who? or what?

We do our best,
Jesus does the rest.

We're walking in the light Hopeful.
I think the problem is what I had discussed with you a long time ago.

You seem to see sin in the big things:
The 10 Commandments
Galatians 5:21
19When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures,
20idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division,
21envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

And other such verses.

Now look at the list of sins.
Do you think a person that loves God/Jesus does any of those sins listed above?

Not most.

But how about quarreling.
You bring back a defective product to a store and the manager won't change it.
You just walk away?

Outburst of anger.
This has never h appened to you?

What I'm saying is that there are many small sins that God notices that we probably do not even notice.
But HE does. I ask forgiveness even for the sins I may not know I even committed.

God is HOLY. He can't stand any type of sin....even the very small ones which we commit every day.
Someone is dressed like a mess. The thought never crosses your mind? That's a sin.
Maybe we have different concepts of how holy God is?

As I've said many times, I dislike discussing this.
Far be it for me to even SEEM to be sanctioning evil.

So I'll stop here.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Come out from among who? or what?

Come out from among the liars who say they are in Christ, but serve sin.

We do our best,
Jesus does the rest.

If "we" have crucified the flesh and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, our best is good enough !

We're walking in the light Hopeful.
I think the problem is what I had discussed with you a long time ago.

Is there sin in the light?
Remember, that God is the light.
Is there sin in God ?

You seem to see sin in the big things:
The 10 Commandments
Galatians 5:21
19When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures,
20idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division,
21envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
And other such verses.
Now look at the list of sins.
Do you think a person that loves God/Jesus does any of those sins listed above?

I know they don't.

Not most.
But how about quarreling.
You bring back a defective product to a store and the manager won't change it.
You just walk away?

Ask for his supervisor.
Get a store credit.
What good is quarrelling going to do ?

Outburst of anger.
This has never happened to you?

No.
Besides, we are exhorted to "Be ye angry, and sin not!" (Eph 4:26)
There is a righteous anger, like Jesus' with the scribes and Pharisees.

What I'm saying is that there are many small sins that God notices that we probably do not even notice.
But HE does. I ask forgiveness even for the sins I may not know I even committed.

If we don't even notice them, they don't qualify as sins.
James 1:14-15 gives the parameters of what is a sin.

God is HOLY. He can't stand any type of sin....even the very small ones which we commit every day.

Those who sin are not in Christ, because there is no sin "in Christ".

Someone is dressed like a mess.

So what ?
Maybe he has no other clothes .

The thought never crosses your mind? That's a sin.

What thought, how fortunate I am to have been supplied nice clothes by God ?

Maybe we have different concepts of how holy God is?

Perhaps.
We have other differences that matter a lot more.

As I've said many times, I dislike discussing this.
Far be it for me to even SEEM to be sanctioning evil.
So I'll stop here.

OK, though I don't see a lack of understanding as evil.
God just wants us to love Him and love our neighbor.
That is all.
Live your life in that parameter, and you will never offend God or man.

 

[Tenchi]

We do our best,
Jesus does the rest.

I thought this was an interesting statement. At first glance, it sounds sensible, even biblical. It is certainly a very common line of thinking among Christians. But, I don't think it is actually biblical - at least, not without some very important caveats and/or clarifications.

When you and I were born-again, we were totally without strength to win free of our bondage to the world, the flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). We hadn't the strength to live as God wants us to (Romans 5:6); our best wasn't anywhere near good enough to satisfy our holy Maker (Romans 3:10). And so, we needed desperately to be saved, right? Saved from ourselves, really, from which we could produce nothing that pleased God.

So, what's happened since we were born-again that makes doing our best worthwhile, that makes our best pleasing to God? Nothing that I can see. Our best remains repugnant to God, coming as it does from us. Instead, God has put us to death spiritually (Romans 6:1-11; Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Colossians 3:3, etc.) and gives us new spiritual life in the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5-6; 2 Corinthians 5:17). We thus become vessels, conduits, branches through which the Spirit expresses his life, his "fruit" (2 Timothy 2:21; Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11; John 15:4-5).

As I understand it from Scripture, then, in a right walk with God there isn't any "my best," only the truly best, which is the life of the Spirit expressing itself in and through me. He does it all: Drawing me to God, baptizing me into Christ, filling me with new, spiritual life and conforming me more and more to the "image of Christ" (Romans 8:29; John 6:44; John 16:8; John 14:26, etc.) In other words, Jesus does it all.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.

What do you think?

 

[F345T]

Some people claim that repentance has no place in salvation, that you can believe in Jesus as “Savior” but never repent of your sin. That you can be saved even if you continue in chained to sin and iniquity just as it was before you became a Christian, that no change is needed. So what does Christ say:

Matthew 4:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 5:32 King James Version (KJV)
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus even repeated it for emphasis in describing to the people:
Luke 13:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jesus told his disciples to proclaim “repentance and remission of sins” in his name to all the nations (Luke 24:47).
When the apostles preached in Acts, they called people to repent of their sins in order to be forgiven:

Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 5:30-31 King James Version (KJV)
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Scripture is clear, repentance is absolutely necessary in order to be saved. Only those truly repent and turn to Christ and His righteousness in their lives, and away from their sin, will be saved on the last day.

Yes, repentance is a vital ingredient in Salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought this was an interesting statement. At first glance, it sounds sensible, even biblical. It is certainly a very common line of thinking among Christians. But, I don't think it is actually biblical - at least, not without some very important caveats and/or clarifications.

Hi Tenchi,
As you know I agree with practically all that you post.
So I read the following with much interest.

When you and I were born-again, we were totally without strength to win free of our bondage to the world, the flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). We hadn't the strength to live as God wants us to (Romans 5:6); our best wasn't anywhere near good enough to satisfy our holy Maker (Romans 3:10). And so, we needed desperately to be saved, right? Saved from ourselves, really, from which we could produce nothing that pleased God.

I'd go so far as to say that even after my born again experience I didn't really know how much God wanted from me.
Happily, I wasn't a big sin sinner, but God is so holy...

So, what's happened since we were born-again that makes doing our best worthwhile, that makes our best pleasing to God? Nothing that I can see. Our best remains repugnant to God, coming as it does from us. Instead, God has put us to death spiritually (Romans 6:1-11; Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14; Colossians 3:3, etc.) and gives us new spiritual life in the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5-6; 2 Corinthians 5:17). We thus become vessels, conduits, branches through which the Spirit expresses his life, his "fruit" (2 Timothy 2:21; Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11; John 15:4-5).

I almost agree, but not 100%

I DO believe that if we're doing our best, it IS pleasing to God.
I don't care for the filthy rags idea.
If we're depending on OUR WORKS for salvation but have no faith, I'm not sure where we'll end up since faith is necessary.
But if we have faith, then I believe God is happy with what we do for Him.

Having said that, I do agree with you that we have to die to ourselves (I understand this better) and become alive in the Spirit - the spirit of God, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit - IOW, the spirit of God in us.

I would say that, yes, this makes us a vessel through which the Holy Spirit can work - at least most of the time.
We won't ever be 100% functioning in holiness (being set aside for service to God) and it's at these times that I think our belief and faith in Jesus comes into play on our behalf.

John said we have an advocate.
An advocate speaks for us when we fail.

As I understand it from Scripture, then, in a right walk with God there isn't any "my best," only the truly best,

I don't understand the difference.
But I know that God does!
It seems to me that we can only do our best in anything we attempt:
being a parent
driving
cooking
studying

How could we do more than our best?

which is the life of the Spirit expressing itself in and through me. He does it all: Drawing me to God, baptizing me into Christ, filling me with new, spiritual life and conforming me more and more to the "image of Christ" (Romans 8:29; John 6:44; John 16:8; John 14:26, etc.) In other words, Jesus does it all.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.

What do you think?

Does 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 mean that Jesus is going to do it all....
or does it mean that through Jesus we can begin over again...anew....a fresh start and a new change.

I'd like to go over the verse you posted, but have no time right now.
Rom 8:29
John 6:44
John 16:8
John 14:26

I'll get to it later,
but I worry a little with the phrase JESUS DID/DOES IT ALL.
I know how YOU mean it....but some mean it in the way that they could just believe and sit back and they put it all on God.

 

[Tenchi]

Hi Tenchi,
As you know I agree with practically all that you post.
So I read the following with much interest.

I'd go so far as to say that even after my born again experience I didn't really know how much God wanted from me.
Happily, I wasn't a big sin sinner, but God is so holy...

Yeah, I can recall the day, decades ago now, when God showed me that my sin was as deep and great in His eyes as that of any convict in any prison. Though I have never embezzled millions, or raped anyone, or committed murder, my selfishness, my pride, my lying heart (chiefly toward myself), were all in God's eyes just as abominable and repugnant to Him as these "big" evils. As you point out above, "God is so holy" which, as God reveals to me more and more what His holiness means, I find blurs the distinctions I want to make between my sin and the sin of those awful criminals I hear about in the news.

I almost agree, but not 100%

I DO believe that if we're doing our best, it IS pleasing to God.
I don't care for the filthy rags idea.

The "filthy rags" thing is often mistakenly understood to be a description of the moral quality of righteous acts when it is actually a description of the spiritual usefulness of them. An unsaved firefighter who risks his life extracting a young girl from a burning building has clearly done a morally-good thing. No morally-sensible person would suggest his saving the girl was an evil deed; no person with a properly functioning moral compass would ever argue that the firefighter should have left the girl to burn to death because all his righteous deeds were actually utterly, morally filthy in God's eyes. No, only insofar as saving the girl has any spiritual value, any spiritual benefit, is his morally-good act like a rag so fouled that it has become useless.

Anyway, my best arising from any other source than the life of the Holy Spirit is what God calls in His word a "work of the flesh." This "fleshly" source of my best is what makes the unsaved firefighter rescuing the little girl spiritually useless. Not coming from the life of the Spirit, the firefighter's good deed does not reflect God, it is not anchored in God, nor does it manifest God such that He is properly glorified (1 Corinthians 10:31; Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 1:12; Philippians 1:10-11).

This is the case, too, when I, as a child of God, exert myself in achievement of what God has said in His word only He can produce in me. No born-again believer can reach a godly end by fleshly means, right (Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 8:5-8; Galatians 5:17)?

Romans 7:18
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 8:8
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

If we're depending on OUR WORKS for salvation but have no faith, I'm not sure where we'll end up since faith is necessary.
But if we have faith, then I believe God is happy with what we do for Him.

Well, our works are either "of the flesh" or they are "of the Spirit." There's no middle ground where the two can mix to good result. And so, you and I are commanded to "walk in/by the Spirit" so that we won't "fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16, 25). We do this, of course, by faith, trusting in the promises and proclamations of God, as you've pointed out.

Having said that, I do agree with you that we have to die to ourselves (I understand this better) and become alive in the Spirit - the spirit of God, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit - IOW, the spirit of God in us.

The really interesting thing (to me, at least) in this is that we don't "die to ourselves" in the way most Christians think. We are already - spiritually-speaking - "dead," already "crucified with Christ that the body of sin (the flesh) might be destroyed that, henceforth, we should not serve sin" (Romans 6:6). All that remains is for us to live, by faith, in the fact of our co-crucifixion with Christ and in the freedom from the flesh and sin that this fact has produced.

Romans 6:11
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

So, we don't crucify ourselves, we don't die to ourselves, but live by faith in the death that God has already accomplished through Jesus on the cross in, and for, us. As we do, the Holy Spirit works in us to reflect in our daily condition, in our mundane living, what has always been true of us in our spiritual position in Jesus Christ. In this way, our position and condition become the same. This is the "best" of the Spirit, though, not our best; it his life manifesting in us as we stand by faith on the truth of what God has done for us. Does this make any sense to you?

I would say that, yes, this makes us a vessel through which the Holy Spirit can work - at least most of the time.
We won't ever be 100% functioning in holiness (being set aside for service to God) and it's at these times that I think our belief and faith in Jesus comes into play on our behalf.

Yup. Amen.

I don't understand the difference.
But I know that God does!
It seems to me that we can only do our best in anything we attempt:
being a parent
driving
cooking
studying

How could we do more than our best?

Maybe this might help to clarify what I'm trying to get at:

Bible Study - Spiritual "Car Pulling."

Philippians 2:12-13 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Imagine a man...

christianforums.net

Does 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 mean that Jesus is going to do it all....
or does it mean that through Jesus we can begin over again...anew....a fresh start and a new change.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Well, in John 15:4-5, Jesus explained that we can do nothing - physically or spiritually - apart from him. He is both our Creator and Sustainer physically and our Life spiritually, too (Colossians 3:4; John 16:4; John 1:4; John 10:10). In a very literal, universal sense, then, Jesus does "do it all." But you are correct that in 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 Paul is speaking of what Christ has accomplished in bringing us into God's spiritual family.

I'll get to it later,
but I worry a little with the phrase JESUS DID/DOES IT ALL.
I know how YOU mean it....but some mean it in the way that they could just believe and sit back and they put it all on God.

Yes, among Christians it is very rare (in my experience, anyway) to encounter someone who doesn't think of the biblical description of Christian living as "too passive." I was speaking with a young man the other day about the life of submission to which all disciples of Christ are called (James 4:6-10; Romans 6:13-22; Romans 12:1; 1 Peter 5:6). He said, "Are we just supposed to sit and wait for God to make us do stuff, then? We have to act, not just submit." I replied, "Submission is an action. It is something you must actively, consciously do." We talked, then, about Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane. This young fellow's response to proper Christian living as "too passive" is pretty typical, though, of how Christians commonly think of the actual description the Bible gives of walking with God.

Philippians 2:12-13 explains best, I think, how things work spiritually for the born-again believer: I work out only what God first works into me. However, He does this "working in" only as I remain submitted to Him in love, faith and humility. Such submission, as far as I can see in Scripture, is the "key" to "walking in/by the Spirit" which is "ground zero" for ALL Christian living. So, then, Jesus does, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, do it all, which is why we read all throughout the NT verses such as the following:

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

1 Corinthians 1:8-9
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
Romans 8:13-14
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Ephesians 3:16
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

1 Peter 5:10
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Am I actually clarifying things, or making them more confusing? Hopefully, I'm doing the former, not the latter.

And MERRY CHRISTMAS!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, I can recall the day, decades ago now, when God showed me that my sin was as deep and great in His eyes as that of any convict in any prison. Though I have never embezzled millions, or raped anyone, or committed murder, my selfishness, my pride, my lying heart (chiefly toward myself), were all in God's eyes just as abominable and repugnant to Him as these "big" evils. As you point out above, "God is so holy" which, as God reveals to me more and more what His holiness means, I find blurs the distinctions I want to make between my sin and the sin of those awful criminals I hear about in the news.

Tenchi,
I wrote out pretty long replies and then lost them all!
I'm checking with tech if the post could be recuped....

The "filthy rags" thing is often mistakenly understood to be a description of the moral quality of righteous acts when it is actually a description of the spiritual usefulness of them. An unsaved firefighter who risks his life extracting a young girl from a burning building has clearly done a morally-good thing. No morally-sensible person would suggest his saving the girl was an evil deed; no person with a properly functioning moral compass would ever argue that the firefighter should have left the girl to burn to death because all his righteous deeds were actually utterly, morally filthy in God's eyes. No, only insofar as saving the girl has any spiritual value, any spiritual benefit, is his morally-good act like a rag so fouled that it has become useless.

Anyway, my best arising from any other source than the life of the Holy Spirit is what God calls in His word a "work of the flesh." This "fleshly" source of my best is what makes the unsaved firefighter rescuing the little girl spiritually useless. Not coming from the life of the Spirit, the firefighter's good deed does not reflect God, it is not anchored in God, nor does it manifest God such that He is properly glorified (1 Corinthians 10:31; Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 1:12; Philippians 1:10-11).

This is the case, too, when I, as a child of God, exert myself in achievement of what God has said in His word only He can produce in me. No born-again believer can reach a godly end by fleshly means, right (Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 8:5-8; Galatians 5:17)?

Romans 7:18
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 8:8
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.




Well, our works are either "of the flesh" or they are "of the Spirit." There's no middle ground where the two can mix to good result. And so, you and I are commanded to "walk in/by the Spirit" so that we won't "fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16, 25). We do this, of course, by faith, trusting in the promises and proclamations of God, as you've pointed out.



The really interesting thing (to me, at least) in this is that we don't "die to ourselves" in the way most Christians think. We are already - spiritually-speaking - "dead," already "crucified with Christ that the body of sin (the flesh) might be destroyed that, henceforth, we should not serve sin" (Romans 6:6). All that remains is for us to live, by faith, in the fact of our co-crucifixion with Christ and in the freedom from the flesh and sin that this fact has produced.

Romans 6:11
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

So, we don't crucify ourselves, we don't die to ourselves, but live by faith in the death that God has already accomplished through Jesus on the cross in, and for, us. As we do, the Holy Spirit works in us to reflect in our daily condition, in our mundane living, what has always been true of us in our spiritual position in Jesus Christ. In this way, our position and condition become the same. This is the "best" of the Spirit, though, not our best; it his life manifesting in us as we stand by faith on the truth of what God has done for us. Does this make any sense to you?



Yup. Amen.



Maybe this might help to clarify what I'm trying to get at:

Bible Study - Spiritual "Car Pulling."

Philippians 2:12-13 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Imagine a man...

christianforums.net

Continued below.

 

[reddogs]

Hey All,
Hopeful 2, would you tell us the secret you found to be sinless. There are a lot of us here who have prayed the sinner's prayer that are telling you being perfect is impossible while in the flesh. And not only us, the apostles Paul and John tell us they consider themselves sinners saved by grace through faith in Jesus as well. I have had a personal battle with sin my whole life. I have come to the understanding that God has to fix me. He called me like I am. I cannot change of my own accord. I cannot make myself righteous. So it is His job. Plus I am relying on the all in 1 John 1:9. They are no longer accounted to me as I am covered by Jesus. But it causes me grief that I still sin.

You obviously have a different truth. Please explain what you found, and how it works.

Instead of debating with us, share with us. Thanks.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

The devil must like that prayer as it keeps one in sin, but that is not what Christ said, He said be ye therefore perfect like your Father in heaven, and clearly says to overcome not continue in sin.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[reddogs]

Paul said he was chief among sinners. With that said, we must have a heart for repentance as we are unable to walk this Earth sinless. Christ will show you as you walk with Him what you need to work on. As He uncovers more sin then that is when it becomes incumbent upon you to repent.
The definition of death: To quit sinning instantly.

Remember that David had some real problems with sin, but yet his heart was right with God and he repented...

 

[Hopeful 2]

Remember that David had some real problems with sin, but yet his heart was right with God and he repented...

David was a real beneficiary of the Law's atonements for the sins of men who had no choice but to walk in the "flesh".
Now in the NT, the repentant can put away the flesh and walk in the Spirit, enabling their repentance from sin to be permanent.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Is repentance needed for salvation?​

Technically, no. Repentance is an effect of salvation and does not cause salvation. In other words the logical order is: we are saved which causes us to repent rather than the idea that we repent that leads to salvation.

 

[Corinth77777]

Is repentance needed for salvation?​

Technically, no. Repentance is an effect of salvation and does not cause salvation. In other words the logical order is: we are saved which causes us to repent rather than the idea that we repent that leads to salvation.

If as I believe it is, salvation is not merely 1 moment in time but everyday life we receive from God, then repentance is necessary for life (salvation). There is no life outside of God.

The salvation in Ephesians 2
Is about coming to life after being dead in sins.
Now that you are alive if you fall -are you saved?
Do you have life in a fallen state?

Being saved is usually speaking of being saved from present circumstances in the world they then lived.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Is repentance needed for salvation?​

Technically, no. Repentance is an effect of salvation and does not cause salvation. In other words the logical order is: we are saved which causes us to repent rather than the idea that we repent that leads to salvation.

Therefore, if someone hasn't repented, they weren't saved. No salvation exists to effect repentance.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Here's the spin on the question.
The salvation message makes sense to us with the power and teaching of the Holy Spirit. We receive the salvation given to us by grace through faith in Jesus. The grace and faith are not ours. They are from God so nobody can brag that they saved themselves. Once we understand the importance of baptism, we get baptized.
Now we're hummin along, and doing good works.

Do we have to look for specific good works to perform?

Or, are they performed as part of our daily life and we may not even be aware of it?

The reason I am asking is Matthew 25.

The people doing the good works didn't know they were doing them to Jesus.

The people who thought they were doing good works for Jesus, were not.

How do you know?
Do we have to know?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz