Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Runningman]

He was with God in the beginning and he himself is god by nature. Through him Father created everything, so technically he is a creator.

Isaiah 44:24 says Yahweh created alone. Do you believe Jesus is Yahweh?

What else. His deeds and words are Father's deeds and words and Father shows him everything he does and Jesus does it.

John 8:28 says Jesus was "taught" by God what to say. It would seem to follow that if he needed to be taught the words then he didn't have them until he knew them.

Like God he has no sin,

Yes, but "Going and sinning no more" is something Jesus believed others were capable of. John 8:11

forgives sins

Yes, but Matthew 9:4-8 say that the authority that Jesus (and "men") had to forgive sins was given to them by God.

judges,

Yes, but John 5:22-24 says that the Father entrusted judgement to the Son.

gives life,

Yes, but John 17:2 says that Jesus was given the authority by the Father to give life to those who were given to him.

reigns in God's Kingdom,

Yes, but Revelation 2:26 and Revelation 5:10 say that those who are saved will also reign in God's kingdom.

sits on Father's throne together with him eternally,

Yes, but Revelation 3:21 says that the one who overcomes will also sit on the throne with Jesus.

sends the Holy Spirit.

Actually, Jesus does not send the Holy Spirit, but rather Jesus asks the Father for that to be done. John 14:16

Yahweh had promised to come to Israel but then Jesus came instead of him.

I am not sure which verse or passage you're referring to, but their are numerous references to the messiah coming alone and God being with him.

Whoever sees him has seen the Father.

I believe it would be the kind of figurative "seeing" (as opposed to being blind) that indicates knowing God rather than visually looking at the Father.

Even Jews noticed he was making himself equal to God.

They made false accusations. Jesus denied being equal to God. John 14:28

Although he isn't equal in terms of Father-Son relations but in other aspects...

Jesus isn't the only one of God's children. He is the firstborn among many brothers (and sisters for that matter.) Romans 8:29

Paul also said to the Romans they are God's offspring. Acts 17:29

Father gave him all that belongs to him. Made him like himself in most of aspects.

Paul said the Romans could be "heirs of God" and "co-heirs with Christ" in Romans 8:17

Why do you think so? He is even searching hearts and minds. Nothing is hidden from him.

Jesus may search the hearts, but there is no such information about him seeing what is done in secret or having eyes everywhere.

Well, this is what you believe. You have the right. But John tells us the opposite and Jesus himself told us the opposite. Yahweh created all things, saves, judges, raises up, rules and does all his works through him.

"Does all of His works through him..." being key here. Jesus could really do nothing without the Father.

John 5:23​

that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Sure, context is about honoring the judgement of the Son.

Yes, the Adversary tested Jesus, but does that mean that he was, in your words lured away by evil desires and enticed?
Surely no, because he is holy and according to Hebrews without sin. So I didn't quite get your point here and what are you trying to prove.

Tempted in all ways: yet remained without sin. Hebrews 4:15 is clear about that. You name it and Jesus was challenged by it. I would note that being tempted is not itself a sin. However, there is no temptation without a desire. Jesus is God's human messiah.

What you may have noticed from the above, with a few exceptions, mostly all of what Jesus did, had, or received isn't something unique to him or was given by the authority of God. What you say Jesus has in common with God are all things that were given to him or delegated to him. Also, many of those things that Jesus did are things that normal Christians should have.

 

[Runningman]

Well sort of.
Jesus compared a seed to the Word of God.

That is a pretty good jump. When Old Testament saints saw a seed they were looking at a hiddden message from creation.

When we see man born of woman we are looking at a hidden message too.

When we look at the ceremonial baptism of John the Baptist,that is the outward part. The inner unseen part is the Repentance in the inner man.

Then when human anatomy is looked at, it can be elevated more.

There are levels of revelation. Just a point of view that changes.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Interesting comparisons. I couldn't help but wonder about some of the gnostic gospels while reading what you wrote. Are you gnostic by any chance? Just curious.

 

[Randy]

They (the two births) are parallel.
The birth of a child of a woman is a shadow of things to come.

The spiritual birth is the important reality we should realize is necessary.

The importance of birth is stressed from creation. Just as Nicodemus did not understand, all men need to be born again to understand.

The breaking of a woman’s water precedes the physical birth. The breaking of baptism of repentance (in the same way) precedes the salvation experience.

Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes. In private he explained the parables to the disciples, the parable of the sower is the key to understanding all hidden mysteries.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Flesh gives birth to flesh. 1st birth
Spirit gives birth to spirit. 2nd birth. John addresses those believers who are in the flesh as "Born" of God. You have heard the term "Born" again.

Born of the Spirit, Born from above, Born of God is the same 2nd birth. (Christ in us a new creation-(birth))

 

[eddif]

Interesting comparisons. I couldn't help but wonder about some of the gnostic gospels while reading what you wrote. Are you gnostic by any chance? Just curious.

Not that I know of. I say that because I do not know what they believe (never read about them).

I probably am a little different. Romans 1:20 came alive to me many years ago.

eddif

 

[Dmytro]

Jesus may search the hearts, but there is no such information about him seeing what is done in secret or having eyes everywhere.

There is

Rev.5:6 and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth

 

[Randy]

There is

Rev.5:6 and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth

You are correct nothing is hidden from Him. He is all that the Father is.
Rev 2:23
I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

 

[Runningman]

There is

Rev.5:6 and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth

The "Seven Spirits of God" are not God though and I think most people agree with that whether they be Trinitarian or otherwise. The Lamb also isn't the Seven Spirits. The talk about the seven horns and seven eyes is most likely not literal.

While I see your point, it's a bit of a stretch, highly interpretive, and doesn't really explicitly speak to anything regarding Jesus' omniscience or omnipresence.

On the other hand, there is a lot about the Father seeing all.

Hebrews 4
13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

 

[Runningman]

Not that I know of. I say that because I do not know what they believe (never read about them).

I probably am a little different. Romans 1:20 came alive to me many years ago.

eddif

That's a good thing.

 

[eddif]

Interesting comparisons. I couldn't help but wonder about some of the gnostic gospels while reading what you wrote. Are you gnostic by any chance? Just curious.

I think I will try and use what you said.
It could be that the gnostics had a few good things about their beliefs. If they had some good it came from God. The treasures of God are placed in earthen vessels to show power is from God and not from man. Just because we find some sin in a group, it does not mean there is zero good in that group.
When I read the letters to the churches in the first part of Revelation, there can be good and bad mixed. They are encouraged to keep the good and forsake the bad.

Today we should try and identify good even if we find bad close by.

Purge the bad, but see the good. Maybe there was some good in the gnostics.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

I think I will try and use what you said.
It could be that the gnostics had a few good things about their beliefs. If they had some good it came from God. The treasures of God are placed in earthen vessels to show power is from God and not from man. Just because we find some sin in a group, it does not mean there is zero good in that group.
When I read the letters to the churches in the first part of Revelation, there can be good and bad mixed. They are encouraged to keep the good and forsake the bad.

That's true. We still believe Jesus and what he taught his disciples to be true regardless of Judas being a betrayer.

Today we should try and identify good even if we find bad close by.

Amen.

Purge the bad, but see the good. Maybe there was some good in the gnostics.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

They show too directly that Jesus isn't God which is why they are generally deemed heretical by the mainline church. I don't recommend them, for the record, as I find the canonized Bible is more widely accepted and adequate for informing others who God and Jesus are.

 

[Dmytro]

You are correct nothing is hidden from Him. He is all that the Father is.
Rev 2:23
I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Yes, but no verses are enough for those who do not believe.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, but no verses are enough for those who do not believe.

Maybe because Jesus never said he is God and denied it. A man as God is a stumbling block and the sin of idolatry. God wouldn't do that. Nothing about God manifesting as a man.

 

[Randy]

Maybe because Jesus never said he is God and denied it. A man as God is a stumbling block and the sin of idolatry. God wouldn't do that. Nothing about God manifesting as a man.

You mean like the Logos becoming flesh.

 

[Randy]

Yes, but no verses are enough for those who do not believe.

He is Biblical Unitarian, and they believe in a glorified man.

 

[Runningman]

You mean like the Logos becoming flesh.

Sure, let me introduce you to 1 John 1:1-3 where the "word of life" (logos of life) is expressly called an it that manifested a man, i.e., Jesus was begotten, he was created. Does that information effect your understanding of John 1:1-14 at all?

 

[Randy]

Sure, let me introduce you to 1 John 1:1-3 where the "word of life" (logos of life) is expressly called an it that manifested a man, i.e., Jesus was begotten, he was created. Does that information effect your understanding of John 1:1-14 at all?

Same writer who wrote about the Word of life who was with the Father in the beginning. That life appeared.
Your unbelief is noted
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made

In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

It's clear to most but not you.
Logos is God =>has Gods very nature.
Logos became flesh. That is the one who has Gods very nature manifested in the flesh.
Jesus is that person testified to who came from above, is above all, and spoke to us of things He saw and heard as the only eyewitness of God.
John 1:18

John the Baptist knew this before the 12 and that could have only be revealed to Him by God.

"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.

 

[Runningman]

Same writer who wrote about the Word of life who was with the Father in the beginning. That life appeared.
Your unbelief is noted

When it comes to who Jesus is you seem to be a bit atheistic on the matter.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

I don't agree with that translation simply because there are two uses of God in this verse.

"Ton Theon" is "The God"
"Theos" is a god or something qualitative because there are not two Gods. Christianity is monotheism.

The correct way to understand John 1:1 is that personification of a non-person thing is being applied to the Word. I don't say that frivolously since from reading John's many writings he not only confirmed that Jesus is not God (Acts 24:24,27, John 17:3, 1 John 1:1-3, etc) but he didn't contradict himself.

This is your best possible workaround. The Logos isn't a literally "he" in John 1:1,2 and then suddenly an it in 1 John 1:1--3 that manifested a man. Your interpretation pits scripture against scripture while mine marriages them in a harmonious union.

Furthermore, if we continue reading past John 1:1, it becomes abundantly clear by John 1:14,18 that the Son of God was literally begotten the day he became the Father's Son.

Psalm 2​

7I will proclaim the decree spoken to Me by Yahweh:​

“You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.​

​

Hebrews 1​

5For to which of the angels did God ever say:​

“You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?​

 

[Randy]

When it comes to who Jesus is you seem to be a bit atheistic on the matter.

I don't agree with that translation simply because there are two uses of God in this verse.

God was the Word.
Theos ēn ho Logos.
The word became flesh.
I know you can't accept it.
The nature of the Word was Gods nature.
If there is only one true God then it must be the Fathers nature found in the Son. Col 1:19;
As I stated most can accept what John wrote hence God the Son.

Philippians 2
That's an odd way to describe any man of course their human. Unless the were from above in the form of God and became a man.
who, though he existed in the form of God
but emptied himself,
And being found in human form​

"Ton Theon" is "The God"
"Theos" is a god or something qualitative because there are not two Gods. Christianity is monotheism.

God was the Word.

Greek Concordance: θεός (theos) -- 311 Occurrences

There is only one God but the meaning of the word theos seems clear.

The correct way to understand John 1:1 is that personification of a non-person thing is being applied to the Word. I don't say that frivolously since from reading John's many writings he not only confirmed that Jesus is not God (Acts 24:24,27, John 17:3, 1 John 1:1-3, etc) but he didn't contradict himself.

This is your best possible workaround. The Logos isn't a literally "he" in John 1:1,2 and then suddenly an it in 1 John 1:1--3 that manifested a man. Your interpretation pits scripture against scripture while mine marriages them in a harmonious union.

Furthermore, if we continue reading past John 1:1, it becomes abundantly clear by John 1:14,18 that the Son of God was literally begotten the day he became the Father's Son.

Psalm 2​

7I will proclaim the decree spoken to Me by Yahweh:​

“You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.​

We believe in the Son of Man who is the Son of God but also believe He has always been the Son.

​

Hebrews 1​

5For to which of the angels did God ever say:​

“You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?​

Hebrews 1 states alot more depth about that Son.

We will remain in continuous disagreement.

 

[Runningman]

was the Word.
Theos ēn ho Logos.
The word became flesh.
I know you can't accept it.
The nature of the Word was Gods nature.
If there is only one true God then it must be the Fathers nature found in the Son. Col 1:19;
As I stated most can accept what John wrote hence God the Son.

The God and god next to each other mean there are two different individuals. The definitive God “The God” and someone or something else “a god” or perhaps something godly. It doesn’t definitively call the Word “the God.” That’s a fact my friend. It’s mistranslated by trinitarians. Please feel free to look into it.

Philippians 2​

That's an odd way to describe any man of course their human. Unless the were from above in the form of God and became a man.​

who, though he existed in the form of God​

but emptied himself,​

And being found in human form​

God was the Word.

Greek Concordance: θεός (theos) -- 311 Occurrences

There is only one God but the meaning of the word theos seems clear.

Do you know what the word Form means in Philippians 2:6?

We believe in the Son of Man who is the Son of God but also believe He has always been the Son.

Then why is it not blasphemy to speak against the Son of Man but it is blasphemy to speak against the Holy Spirit? That’s an odd way to treat someone who is God isn’t it?

Hebrews 1 states alot more depth about that Son.

Yes it does let’s go into it.

We will remain in continuous disagreement.

You will eventually not have a choice. You won’t hear God’s messengers, but if you really want to know perhaps God will tell you. If you love God and love Jesus would you receive their words on this matter?

 

[Randy]

The God and god next to each other mean there are two different individuals. The definitive God “The God” and someone or something else “a god” or perhaps something godly. It doesn’t definitively call the Word “the God.” That’s a fact my friend. It’s mistranslated by trinitarians. Please feel free to look into it.

The meaning is clear to most but not You. Besides I know Him and He is all that the Father is.
Theos was the Word. The Logos has the Father's nature. The Father is God.

Do you know what the word Form means in Philippians 2:6?

Then why is it not blasphemy to speak against the Son of Man but it is blasphemy to speak against the Holy Spirit? That’s an odd way to treat someone who is God isn’t it?

Doesn't address someone who was in the form of God, emptied Himself and appeared in the form of man. Which has a being context. He did not start life as a man. The Word became flesh. He came from above and testified to what He saw and heard.

Yes it does let’s go into it.


You will eventually not have a choice. You won’t hear God’s messengers, but if you really want to know perhaps God will tell you. If you love God and love Jesus would you receive their words on this matter?

I have received their words on the matter. No, I reject your invitation because I follow Jesus and do believe in Him. You are the one who is mistaken and can't hear anything in regard to the Son who was from the text, from me and from others who also proclaim faith in Him. "Nothing is hidden from Him" He searches the minds and hearts of the people as He stated in REV and it's by the Spirit He does so. The Spirit of God.

If you read the letters to the church's you read "He knows their deeds, their love and faith, poverty and affliction and some who are luke warm in addition to certain practices they hate which He hates. He knows this from heaven.

You also read.
Then all the churches will know that I am he "who searches hearts and minds,"