Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[eddif]

There is a kingdom of heaven where God is. There is a kingdom of God on earth
The our Father prayer tells us this.

There is the New Jerusalem that is invisible to some. IMHO

To me that is Trinity without the usual descriptive words.

I doubt many trinitarians will accept what I say.

I wind up on the outside. Of many conversations.

Metaphysics has two parts
Meta - Beyond or Above
Physics - Creatiom ot rhe study of the physical.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

Your human body.

Without your mind, your human body would have all the power of pop-sickle stick.
It is not responsible for, nor capable of, committing sin.

 

[Randy]

Without your mind, your human body would have all the power of pop-sickle stick.
It is not responsible for, nor capable of, committing sin.

Again the "pull" to sin as in sexual immorality is of the body not the spirit.


Jesus-Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray so that you will not enter into temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

Galatians 5:19-23
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Yes, people are accountable for what they do, and they are in control of their own will. But the weakness is in the flesh not the spirit. People are tempted by that weakness.

 

[Runningman]

Again the "pull" to sin as in sexual immorality is of the body not the spirit.


Jesus-Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray so that you will not enter into temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

Galatians 5:19-23
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Yes, people are accountable for what they do, and they are in control of their own will. But the weakness is in the flesh not the spirit. People are tempted by that weakness.

Jesus understood this:

Matthew 15
10Jesus called the crowd to Him and said, “Listen and understand. 11A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it.”

12Then the disciples came to Him and said, “Are You aware that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13But Jesus replied, “Every plant that My heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by its roots. 14Disregard them! They are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

15Peter said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.”

16“Do you still not understand?” Jesus asked. 17“Do you not yet realize that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then is eliminated? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a man. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander. 20These are what defile a man, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile him.”

 

[Hopeful 2]

Again the "pull" to sin as in sexual immorality is of the body not the spirit.

I disagree.
As many times as my mind wanted to do something unseemly in the past, my skin and bones never once over powered my will to remain civil.

Jesus-Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray so that you will not enter into temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
Galatians 5:19-23
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The "flesh" in this case is the worldly oriented mind.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Yes, people are accountable for what they do, and they are in control of their own will. But the weakness is in the flesh not the spirit. People are tempted by that weakness.

Though the worldly oriented mind can use the skin and bones ("flesh") to commit sin/break laws, man's conscience (spirit) can over-ride what the worldly oriented mind wants.
If your skin and bones can actually commit sin, why not take Jesus' Matt 5:29-30 advice, and cut off the parts that offend ?
Thankfully, God has allowed that "chopping off" of the "flesh" by out baptism into Christ's death and burial. (Rom 6:3)
Col 2:11-12 says..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
That is the end of the "flesh" problem !

 

[Randy]

I disagree.
As many times as my mind wanted to do something unseemly in the past, my skin and bones never once over powered my will to remain civil.

The "flesh" in this case is the worldly oriented mind.

Though the worldly oriented mind can use the skin and bones ("flesh") to commit sin/break laws, man's conscience (spirit) can over-ride what the worldly oriented mind wants.
If your skin and bones can actually commit sin, why not take Jesus' Matt 5:29-30 advice, and cut off the parts that offend ?
Thankfully, God has allowed that "chopping off" of the "flesh" by out baptism into Christ's death and burial. (Rom 6:3)
Col 2:11-12 says..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
That is the end of the "flesh" problem !

I used sexual immorality as an example of the weakness of the flesh. How about obesity. People know in their mind they should eat healthy and stay away from certain foods and sweets yet many don't. That weakness is the flesh.

I agree that Christ has freed those in Him from being slaves to sin.

How do you read this?

Romans 7:15-20

New International Version
​

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

1. [a] Romans 7:18 Or my flesh

 

[Hopeful 2]

I used sexual immorality as an example of the weakness of the flesh. How about obesity. People know in their mind they should eat healthy and stay away from certain foods and sweets yet many don't. That weakness is the flesh.

The body cannot force you to eat.
The mind is in control.

I agree that Christ has freed those in Him from being slaves to sin.

Great !

How do you read this?

Romans 7:15-20​

New International Version​

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

1. [a] Romans 7:18 Or my flesh

Rom 7:18 KJV..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
That "flesh" is the worldly oriented mind.
"Flesh" is a state of mind.

 

[Randy]

The body cannot force you to eat.
The mind is in control.

Clearly the mind gives way to the desires or pleasures of the flesh. Otherwise obesity wouldn't be the large health hazard it has become.

Great !

Rom 7:18 KJV..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
That "flesh" is the worldly oriented mind.
"Flesh" is a state of mind.

He stated one would do what they didn't want to do. That weakness is the human condition. The flesh.
vs 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

As Jesus stated:
“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

 

[eddif]

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life keep you from being fruitful.

2 Peter 2:8 kjv
8. The For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither bebarren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly the mind gives way to the desires or pleasures of the flesh. Otherwise obesity wouldn't be the large health hazard it has become.

He stated one would do what they didn't want to do. That weakness is the human condition. The flesh.
vs 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

As Jesus stated:
“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

LOL
You are bumping up against

Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?​

Modern medicine has area specialists.
Each doctor tends to just discuss their area of training. There is little trans system anatomy and physiology examination. Human anatomy (made in the image of God) is very complex. You are crossing areas most people do not cross.

Some just look at a physical model of Humanity (that does exist). Hormones, gluttony, anger are part of our earthern vessel we are. When you start talking about the added law in our heart and mind everything just does not compute.

we see through a glass darkly. We are not yet to the last trump and the final changes before eternity with God.

Symbolism / parables are hard to see and also almost impossible to express. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. We can not say know the Lord.

As a redneck I see the light coming out from under a door to another room. I want to enter that room. At the last trump all will be clear and eternal. Part of that statement is borrowed.

To me human anatomy Romans 1:20 helps. To some others th mystery seems out of reach. Peter said Paul spoke of things hard to understand.

I do not get it all. Sometimes it is difficult.
The mind of Christ vs our carnal mind.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

I just. Remembered a story.
Part of the story anyway
We had a puppy that stuck his head in a large pickle jar. Its ears folded forward and the puppy was stumbling around with the pickle helmet on. Probably low on oxygen.


That puppy needed help to get out of his problem.

we need help at times.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Randy]

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life keep you from being fruitful.

2 Peter 2:8 kjv
8. The For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither bebarren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

LOL
You are bumping up against

Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?​

Modern medicine has area specialists.
Each doctor tends to just discuss their area of training. There is little trans system anatomy and physiology examination. Human anatomy (made in the image of God) is very complex. You are crossing areas most people do not cross.

Some just look at a physical model of Humanity (that does exist). Hormones, gluttony, anger are part of our earthern vessel we are. When you start talking about the added law in our heart and mind everything just does not compute.

we see through a glass darkly. We are not yet to the last trump and the final changes before eternity with God.

Symbolism / parables are hard to see and also almost impossible to express. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. We can not say know the Lord.

As a redneck I see the light coming out from under a door to another room. I want to enter that room. At the last trump all will be clear and eternal. Part of that statement is borrowed.

To me human anatomy Romans 1:20 helps. To some others th mystery seems out of reach. Peter said Paul spoke of things hard to understand.

I do not get it all. Sometimes it is difficult.
The mind of Christ vs our carnal mind.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

The weakness is found in the flesh, the human condition, not the spirit.
It's by the Spirit in us, (Christ), we are able to overcome the misdeeds of the flesh and its desires. Those who live according to the flesh will die.
The Father's Spirit has His nature, is holy and would be a Spirit of truth. All are taught by God. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son as Jesus stated. As in they were yours, (The Fathers), and you gave them to me. (Jesus) If God is one's Father as in they belong to Him then they will hear what He says and believe in His Son. If God is not one's Father as in they don't belong to God then that one in unable to hear what God says. They do not believe in the Son.

ZECHARIAH 4:6
So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.

Not some but "All"

John 6:37-39

New International Version
​

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

 

[Dmytro]

Indeed, but the requirement to be born of both "water and spirirt" still remains to enter the kingdom of heaven. Some seem to think the water is a reference to actually being born of a woman. I would like to note that the being "born again" in John 3:3 actually means "born from above."

'Of flesh' is about being born of a woman, 'of water' is something different because united with 'and spirit'.

Yes Jesus is divine if you mean godly. In that case it isn't something exclusive to Jesus.

No, I don't mean 'godly' in 'devoutly religious; pious' sense, but that he is sharing attributes that belong to God only. He and the Father are of the same nature.

We can partake of the divine nature right now (2 Peter 1:4)

That doesn't make us the same as God. Yes, they are making us into their image, according to their likeness but we're just of different kind, creature, not equal to a creator.

Jesus is not omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. Jesus was susceptible to temptation. Jesus doesn't share all of the titles as God, isn't God Himself.
Where "God" is mentioned in the New Testament, do you think it's always a reference to God (The Father?)

• Not omnipotent

What is this that he's not able to do? Through him everything was created and God does nothing by himself only through Jesus.

• Not omnipresent

How do you understand God's omnipresence?

• Not omniscient

Yes, because he isn't the Father. Such are their roles or relations if that makes sense for you. The Father is a designer doing nothing by himself while Jesus is the one who implements, his right hand. It's like to say my Father and me are of different nature because I don't know everything he knows.

• Not etc.

?

• Jesus was susceptible to temptation

The Satan tempted him. Does that mean he was tempted by evil? I doubt.

• Not sharing all God's titles

Jahweh the Father and Jesus the Son are different persons. I mean are you not human the same as your father because your titles and family roles are different?

Yes indeed and now in 2024 a lot has happened since then. The word Christian carries some baggage and connotation with it.

Yes, but... 'a Christian' associates with Christ Jesus for me.

 

[Dmytro]

Jahweh the Father

Yahweh. Should call him by name more often.

 

[Runningman]

'Of flesh' is about being born of a woman, 'of water' is something different because united with 'and spirit'.

Yeah. I would say "of water" refers to water baptism since water baptism is mentioned with frequency throughout the new testament. I don't think Jesus meant to make that complicated. Being born of a woman isn't really something anyone preached about in scripture as a prerequisite because it goes without saying that someone who is alive was born and they don't need to be informed about that.

No, I don't mean 'godly' in 'devoutly religious; pious' sense, but that he is sharing attributes that belong to God only. He and the Father are of the same nature.

However, Jesus is godly in that sense isn't he? I am not sure what attributes you're speaking of that Jesus exclusively possesses that belong only to God. Will you please let me know what you think it is in Jesus' nature that only he has that is of the same nature as his God and Father?

That doesn't make us the same as God. Yes, they are making us into their image, according to their likeness but we're just of different kind, creature, not equal to a creator.

Jesus isn't equal to the creator either.

• Not omnipotent

What is this that he's not able to do? Through him everything was created and God does nothing by himself only through Jesus.

Well, here's one example:

Mark 6
5So He could not perform any miracles there, except to lay His hands on a few of the sick and heal them.

• Not omnipresent

How do you understand God's omnipresence?

I understand God's omnipresence as seeing all things. Jesus doesn't see all things.

Proverbs 15
3The eyes of the LORD are in every place,
observing the evil and the good.

Matt 6
17But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that your fasting will not be obvious to men, but only to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

• Not omniscient

Yes, because he isn't the Father. Such are their roles or relations if that makes sense for you. The Father is a designer doing nothing by himself while Jesus is the one who implements, his right hand. It's like to say my Father and me are of different nature because I don't know everything he knows.

The Father did it all alone. Jesus wasn't instrumental in creation except for the establishment of the church which God actually did through him.

Isaiah 44
24Thus says the LORD,
your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who by Myself spread out the earth,

• Jesus was susceptible to temptation

The Satan tempted him. Does that mean he was tempted by evil? I doubt.

James defined temptation as being lured away by evil desires and enticed.

James 1
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

Hebrews 4
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.

• Not sharing all God's titles

Jahweh the Father and Jesus the Son are different persons. I mean are you not human the same as your father because your titles and family roles are different?

No matter who anyone's father is they will never be him regardless of what they share in common.

 

[Dmytro]

Yeah. I would say "of water" refers to water baptism since water baptism is mentioned with frequency throughout the new testament. I don't think Jesus meant to make that complicated. Being born of a woman isn't really something anyone preached about in scripture as a prerequisite because it goes without saying that someone who is alive was born and they don't need to be informed about that.

Yes, I also think it's about water baptism.

However, Jesus is godly in that sense isn't he? I am not sure what attributes you're speaking of that Jesus exclusively possesses that belong only to God. Will you please let me know what you think it is in Jesus' nature that only he has that is of the same nature as his God and Father?

He was with God in the beginning and he himself is god by nature. Through him Father created everything, so technically he is a creator. What else. His deeds and words are Father's deeds and words and Father shows him everything he does and Jesus does it. Like God he has no sin, always was, forgives sins, judges, gives life, and condemns to death, reigns in God's Kingdom, sits on Father's throne together with him eternally, sends the Holy Spirit. He is praised and honoured by heavenly inhabitants together with the Father. Yahweh had promised to come to Israel but then Jesus came instead of him. Whoever sees him has seen the Father. Even Jews noticed he was making himself equal to God. Although he isn't equal in terms of Father-Son relations but in other aspects... Father gave him all that belongs to him. Made him like himself in most of aspects.

Jesus isn't equal to the creator either.
Well, here's one example:

Mark 6
5So He could not perform any miracles there, except to lay His hands on a few of the sick and heal them.

I think I see your point. This is why I'm not being a trinitarian don't want to associate with non-trinitarians also, because they thoroughly search for some evidences proving Jesus is in some sense lower than God not paying attentions to the abundance of those proving they are the same.

I understand God's omnipresence as seeing all things. Jesus doesn't see all things.

Why do you think so? He is even searching hearts and minds. Nothing is hidden from him.

Proverbs 15
3The eyes of the LORD are in every place,
observing the evil and the good.

Matt 6
17But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that your fasting will not be obvious to men, but only to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

The Father did it all alone. Jesus wasn't instrumental in creation except for the establishment of the church which God actually did through him.

Well, this is what you believe. You have the right. But John tells us the opposite and Jesus himself told us the opposite. Yahweh created all things, saves, judges, raises up, rules and does all his works through him.

John 5:23​

that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

So see for yourself.

Isaiah 44
24Thus says the LORD,
your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who by Myself spread out the earth,


James defined temptation as being lured away by evil desires and enticed.

James 1
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

Hebrews 4
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.

Yes, the Adversary tested Jesus, but does that mean that he was, in your words lured away by evil desires and enticed?
Surely no, because he is holy and according to Hebrews without sin. So I didn't quite get your point here and what are you trying to prove.

No matter who anyone's father is they will never be him regardless of what they share in common.

My point is that regardless of their different family roles and and hence status or some other personal differences both father and son are humans. Moreover I would say the only reason why their father-son relations are possible is because they are sharing the same nature. You cannot make monkey your son right? The same is with Yahweh the Father and Jesus his Son. They are the Father and the Son in that unique applicable only to them two sense because nature is the same. We're also sons, born of God, will also inherit the Kingdom together with Jesus but Jesus is the only one Son to whom the Father has handed over everything he has, his exclusive functions, glory, honour and the throne to the age.

 

[eddif]

Yeah. I would say "of water" refers to water baptism since water baptism is mentioned with frequency throughout the new testament. I don't think Jesus meant to make that complicated. Being born of a woman isn't really something anyone preached about in scripture as a prerequisite because it goes without saying that someone who is alive was born and they don't need to be informed about that.

Well sort of.
Jesus compared a seed to the Word of God.

That is a pretty good jump. When Old Testament saints saw a seed they were looking at a hiddden message from creation.

When we see man born of woman we are looking at a hidden message too.

When we look at the ceremonial baptism of John the Baptist,that is the outward part. The inner unseen part is the Repentance in the inner man.

Then when human anatomy is looked at, it can be elevated more.

There are levels of revelation. Just a point of view that changes.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Randy]

Jesus explained or answered Nicodemus's question, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Not how one is born. Baptism is not a birth. Flesh gives birth to flesh. (1st) Spirit gives birth to spirit. (2nd) As in born from above, born of God, born again. The Spirit of Christ in us is a new creation. (birth) not Water baptism and that is the 2nd birth Nicodemus did not know about. If one does not have the Spirit of Christ in them they do not belong to Him.

 

[eddif]

Jesus explained or answered Nicodemus's question, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Not how one is born. Baptism is not a birth. Flesh gives birth to flesh. (1st) Spirit gives birth to spirit. (2nd) As in born from above, born of God, born again. The Spirit of Christ in us is a new creation. (birth) not Water baptism and that is the 2nd birth Nicodemus did not know about. If one does not have the Spirit of Christ in them they do not belong to Him.

They (the two births) are parallel.
The birth of a child of a woman is a shadow of things to come.

The spiritual birth is the important reality we should realize is necessary.

The importance of birth is stressed from creation. Just as Nicodemus did not understand, all men need to be born again to understand.

The breaking of a woman’s water precedes the physical birth. The breaking of baptism of repentance (in the same way) precedes the salvation experience.

Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes. In private he explained the parables to the disciples, the parable of the sower is the key to understanding all hidden mysteries.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

They (the two births) are parallel.
The birth of a child of a woman is a shadow of things to come.

The spiritual birth is the important reality we should realize is necessary.

The importance of birth is stressed from creation. Just as Nicodemus did not understand, all men need to be born again to understand.

The breaking of a woman’s water precedes the physical birth. The breaking of baptism of repentance (in the same way) precedes the salvation experience.

Jesus spoke in parables to the multitudes. In private he explained the parables to the disciples, the parable of the sower is the key to understanding all hidden mysteries.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Another level of understanding occurs on the cross.

So how do we understand?

The heart is in a water sack (redneck words). As the spear pierced Jesus, two things came out. Water and blood were mixed? It is hard to separate the two without a new birth.


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Dealing with symbolism is really strange.
I have a question.
Is anyone else getting the symbolism of the umbilical cord?

Neve before did I get as much as now.

eddif