Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Dmytro]

That newness is made possible because I no longer fear being a debtor to the now dead "flesh", or condemnation for the sins I repented of, and was washed of, many years ago.

Our flesh is dead by the Spirit living in us, so, most of the time, we no longer follow it's desires. But

1John2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,
2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

Our flesh is dead by the Spirit but not dead literally because flesh is our vessel, tent we're currently living in, our bodies.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Our flesh is dead by the Spirit living in us, so, most of the time, we no longer follow it's desires.

MOST of the time ?
How can you serve "flesh" at all if it is dead ?

But
1John2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,
2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

The only ones who still need the Advocate are those who have never relied on Him in the past.
The "any one" of 1 John 2:1 are the sinners who want to stop sinning for good !

Our flesh is dead by the Spirit but not dead literally because flesh is our vessel, tent we're currently living in, our bodies.

If you still consider your skin and bones as YOUR property, then you haven't yet submitted to God.
Besides, the skin and bones can't force you to do anything, much less commit sin.
Can your 'tent' make you lie ?

 

[Dmytro]

What happens to the unsaved?

They are being held by death and hades until the judgement of the great white throne and then are thrown to the gehinnom forever.

 

[Dmytro]

If you still consider your skin and bones as YOUR property, then you haven't yet submitted to God.
Besides, the skin and bones can't force you to do anything, much less commit sin.
Can your 'tent' make you lie ?

Here is what Paul says:
Gal.4
16 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete;
17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will -- these ye may not do;
18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.

See how man's desires depend on what he is led by, either flesh or the Spirit.

If you still consider your skin and bones as YOUR property, then you haven't yet submitted to God.
Besides, the skin and bones can't force you to do anything, much less commit sin.
Can your 'tent' make you lie ?

Yes it can. Here are lies and much more:

19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,
21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Here is what Paul says:
Gal.4
16 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete;
17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will -- these ye may not do;
18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.
See how man's desires depend on what he is led by, either flesh or the Spirit.

Yes, I do see it.

Yes it can. Here are lies and much more:
19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,
21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.

Can your skin and bones do any of those things on their own ?
It is the mind which lusts for and uses eyes and arms and legs to attain the minds lusts.

BTW, not all usages of the word "flesh" mean "skin and bones".
Sometimes, like in the verses you just used, they refer to a worldly oriented mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I do see it.

Can your skin and bones do any of those things on their own ?
It is the mind which lusts for and uses eyes and arms and legs to attain the minds lusts.

BTW, not all usages of the word "flesh" mean "skin and bones".
Sometimes, like in the verses you just used, they refer to a worldly oriented mind.

You call it MIND.
Would that be our SOUL?
I do believe so.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You call it MIND.
Would that be our SOUL?
I do believe so.

It may be, but I don't really know with any certainty.

 

[Randy]

Yes, I do see it.

Can your skin and bones do any of those things on their own ?
It is the mind which lusts for and uses eyes and arms and legs to attain the minds lusts.

BTW, not all usages of the word "flesh" mean "skin and bones".
Sometimes, like in the verses you just used, they refer to a worldly oriented mind.

Out of the heart. The weakness is in the flesh.
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
By the Spirit we overcome that weakness. We are not controlled by that weakness. A mind controlled by the Spirit can resist the pull of the flesh to sin. Those without the Spirit are still slaves to sin. The one in us is greater than the one in the world. The one born of God has overcome the world.

Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Randy]

You call it MIND.
Would that be our SOUL?
I do believe so.

Jesus, the one from above, testified to things He saw and heard in the Fathers presence. Does not such memory reside in one's mind?

If He had a human mind, are you stating He was out of His mind? Sorry couldn't resist. (smile)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Out of the heart. The weakness is in the flesh.
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
By the Spirit we overcome that weakness. We are not controlled by that weakness. A mind controlled by the Spirit can resist the pull of the flesh to sin. Those without the Spirit are still slaves to sin. The one in us is greater than the one in the world. The one born of God has overcome the world.

I hope you realize that each of those examples of the "flesh" was referring to the "worldly oriented mind", and not to the skin and bones.

Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

I'm not really sure what that was referring to... ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I do see it.

Can your skin and bones do any of those things on their own ?
It is the mind which lusts for and uses eyes and arms and legs to attain the minds lusts.

BTW, not all usages of the word "flesh" mean "skin and bones".
Sometimes, like in the verses you just used, they refer to a worldly oriented mind.

I guess this could be for Randy too:

I believe that when you use the word MIND, you really mean SOUL.

The 3 parts of the human are:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

1 Thessalonians 5:23

The soul includes the mind.
The soul affects our mind and causes the body to move in a disordered way.

The body sins through the soul.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I guess this could be for Randy too:
I believe that when you use the word MIND, you really mean SOUL.
The 3 parts of the human are:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT
1 Thessalonians 5:23
The soul includes the mind.
The soul affects our mind and causes the body to move in a disordered way.

Perhaps.

The body sins through the soul.

Can the body do anything of itself ?
I am reminded of Jesus' speech after giving the beatitudes on the mountain...
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matt 5:29-30)
If your body parts really have the power to commit sin, shouldn't you cut them off ?

 

[eddif]

Ephesians 4:23 kjv
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Law placed in heart and mind.

eddif

 

[Randy]

I hope you realize that each of those examples of the "flesh" was referring to the "worldly oriented mind", and not to the skin and bones.

Let's take sexual desire. It is of the flesh not the spirit. Those who don't have the spirit are slaves to sin or those desires.

I'm not really sure what that was referring to... ?

Out of the heart come's...

 

[Randy]

I guess this could be for Randy too:

I believe that when you use the word MIND, you really mean SOUL.

The 3 parts of the human are:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

1 Thessalonians 5:23

The soul includes the mind.
The soul affects our mind and causes the body to move in a disordered way.

The body sins through the soul.

You missed the point made.
Wouldn't memories be of one's mind?
But it's stated Jesus had a rational soul and a human body. So, human on all three of the parts you list. Yet, He spoke of things He saw and heard beforehand in the Fathers presence. Context-The only such eyewitness of the Father. John 1:18 That conflicts with just a human soul.

So that belief. human soul, is stating Jesus was out of "His" mind as well. (smile)-This is stated in humor though in a way accurate.

My God, the Father, never ends or changes. He is. It is He who dwells in the Son and defined Jesus's being. Col 1:19 before all things were brought into existence by His Son via the Fathers Deity in Him. Jesus has always had a God and been a Son. And "God" created by and through Him as is stated in the NT. To me that would be the Father in Him doing His work. They are one.

The spirit of the Firstborn, who was in that human body, states, My God, My Father who is greater than me or and the only true God.
The Fathers Deity in the Son states, I am the First and the last.
Both in heaven and earth the Fathers works performed by the Son are by the Deity living in Him. (The Father) The nature of the Logos is the Fathers not His own. Which is God and again they are one.
The honor given is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. As was with the Israelites the Spirit of God was known but not stated as a person in all those centuries. The Spirit of the Father would have the Fathers nature as well as the Logos but it is the Fathers and not a son.

Jesus did not receive His own Spirit from the Father in regard to the Spirit poured out as in Acts 2. It proceeded from the Father and He sent it through the Son in Jesus's name.


They are one.

 

[eddif]

2 Corinthians 4:7 kjv
7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

I like the RSV transcendent power better.

Anyway:

The vessel we are is not designed perfect. Adam was very good.

Who we are does not dettract from the idea the power comes from outside ourselves.

God gets the credit.
Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

Let's take sexual desire. It is of the flesh not the spirit.

Which "flesh" are you referring to ?
The worldly oriented mind, or the skin and bones ?

Those who don't have the spirit are slaves to sin or those desires.

True.

Out of the heart come's...

I am glad you can see the relationship of the worldly oriented mind (heart) to the lusts of the so-called "flesh".

 

[Randy]

Which "flesh" are you referring to ?
The worldly oriented mind, or the skin and bones ?

Your human body.

True.

I am glad you can see the relationship of the worldly oriented mind (heart) to the lusts of the so-called "flesh".

 

[eddif]

We are now to a difficult part if the discussion.
Made in the image of God
I do not have it all figured out.
The human Brain:
1. Cerebral cortex Clouds where God lives,
Just out of our reach. (The Clouds the 3rd Heaven)
2. Cerebellum where human thinking goes on

I am going to stop here. Why? I am a Mississippi redneck. Symbolism is an Extreme interest to me, but what could I know.about (made in the image of God).
Romans 1:20

Because of how we view our physical makeup is tied to our understanding of God.
Romans 1:20

eddif

 

[Runningman]

Jesus in John 3 says that without second birth it's not possible to see/ enter the Kingdom. What is born of flesh is flesh. This is about fleshy body of sin and death. And the solution is the second birth from the Spirit. What is born of the Spirit, spirit is. This is about us in new spiritual bodies.

Then in 1Cor 15 Paul teaches the same:
1Cor 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption

51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:
53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
this is about spiritual bodies.
42 So also [is] the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

So, the conclusion is that a person born from/ raised up by the Spirit of God, in a new spiritual body can see/ enter the Kingdom.

Indeed, but the requirement to be born of both "water and spirirt" still remains to enter the kingdom of heaven. Some seem to think the water is a reference to actually being born of a woman. I would like to note that the being "born again" in John 3:3 actually means "born from above."

Jesus isn't God the Father, but he is divine like him. What Father's attributes Jesus is lacking in your opinion?

Yes Jesus is divine if you mean godly. In that case it isn't something exclusive to Jesus. We can partake of the divine nature right now (2 Peter 1:4)

Jesus is not omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. Jesus was susceptible to temptation. Jesus doesn't share all of the titles as God, isn't God Himself.

Where "God" is mentioned in the New Testament, do you think it's always a reference to God (The Father?)

We call ourself christians and Jesus' disciples to indicate who we follow after and love, who we belong to.

Yes indeed and now in 2024 a lot has happened since then. The word Christian carries some baggage and connotation with it.