Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Dmytro]

Exactly and I agree.

Do you think it's possible Jesus could have pre-existed as an angel? I ask this because in Revelation 22 there is an angel talking saying to not worship him and then without any introduction suddenly Jesus is talking as if Jesus is actually the angel who was talking before.

Revelation 22
8And I am John, who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”

12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

How do you agree if you don't understand what I'm saying? I don't care about the trinity and have never said Jesus is Yahweh God. But he is God by nature, the same as Yahweh God our Father. Please listen carefully. And now you're again saying he's an angel. This isn't true and there are enough evidences that he and God are equal by nature. Or do you believe that Yahweh God, the only one who can save, gave us an angel to be saved through faith in him? You are blaspheming.

 

[Free]

You didn't disprove anything regarding 1 John 1:1-3. What gave you that idea?

Because it's sola scriptura.


The "the Word of life" is the subject. It is described with pronouns: "which" ("that which was from the beginning"), "which" again (what they heard), "which" once more (what they have seen), and "this" (their experiences). The pronoun "this" refers back to the subject "the Word of life."

The "the Word of life" represents "the life that was revealed." "This" is used again to refer back to the subject "the Word of life." The pronoun "it" is used to refer to "the life that was revealed." The use of "it" reflects the fact that "the life" is being treated as an abstract concept rather than a person.

The "word of life" is an it that manifested a human.

Also, see HERE.

In 1 John 1:1-3, John uses some language from John 1:1-18 in alluding to the entire life and ministry of Jesus, and indirectly refers to the Word, in whom “was life, and the life was the light of men” (John 1:4). John refers to the empirical evidences that proved the Son was the eternal life “which was was the Father.”

In no way whatsoever does this mean that the word of life is an “it” and not a person. We know from John 1:1-2 that the Word is an eternal “person” and in nature God, yet distinct from the Father. This doesn’t change—it cannot change—when it comes to 1 John 1.

To say the word of life or the Word is an “it” is utter blasphemy.

 

[Runningman]

Randy said:
1. The same mindset.
2. who, though he was in the form of God,
3. did not regard equality with God
4. as something to be exploited,
5. 7 but emptied himself,

Why should I care about the trinity. And why are you distorting the meaning of the verse?
Line 2 clearly says that Jesus before his incarnation was in the form (externally similar to God) of Yahweh God.
Line 3 says that he also was equal with him. This isn't possible unless he is God by nature.
Line 4 says that for ours sake he temporarily took the form of a servant, a man.

You said that you love God and Jesus, so accept, don't argue. But you dishonour both Jesus and God by saying he was created and just a man as we all are.

Philippians 2:5 told the Philippians to have the same mind as Jesus and then he went on to explain what that mind is.

The external appearance of Jesus isn't that he visually looks like God because God isn't a human, but this is in regards to Jesus' behavior. Jesus was godly, righteous, holy, etc; things that normal Christians should be. Imitating God is also something humanly possible according to Paul.

Ephesians 5
1Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children,

Why do you think Jesus wasn't created? He's a man isn't he?

 

[Runningman]

I provided you a verse that says that the Lamb's (Jesus') eyes are everywhere trough the seven spirits of God and now you are saying that Bible don't speak about him in this way... You believe the book of Revelation isn't a part of Bible?
According to that book he sees everything, the evil and the good, and we are going to give account to him.

If I understand you correctly, you think that Revelation 5:6 refers to the Lambs eyes, but where did you see that? Look at the verse again. It says the horns and eyes are representative of something. I think the leap you're making is that it means Jesus is either omniscient or omnipresent and that simply isn't what it says.

Revelation 5
6Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

 

[Runningman]

How do you agree if you don't understand what I'm saying?

I don't understand what you're saying according to who?

I don't care about the trinity and have never said Jesus is Yahweh God. But he is God by nature, the same as Yahweh God our Father. Please listen carefully.

Just having a Bible discussion here in the trinity forum.

And now you're again saying he's an angel.

Is that what I said or is it what I asked? I asked you a question to have a discussion.

This isn't true and there are enough evidences that he and God are equal by nature.

What do you do with all of the evidence against them being equal such as when Jesus said they aren't equal or when Paul said so in Philippians 2:6?

Or do you believe that Yahweh God, the only one who can save, gave us an angel to be saved through faith in him?

Since Yahweh sent a human messiah to do it why couldn't he use a man? Can't Yahweh save any way He wants?

You are blaspheming.

Oh my that's a serious charge since all I did was ask a question. Maybe you should try to relax, lighten up a bit, and enjoy the conversation rather than accusing those you're talking to of sin.

 

[Runningman]

Also, see HERE.

In 1 John 1:1-3, John uses some language from John 1:1-18 in alluding to the entire life and ministry of Jesus, and indirectly refers to the Word, in whom “was life, and the life was the light of men” (John 1:4). John refers to the empirical evidences that proved the Son was the eternal life “which was was the Father.”

In no way whatsoever does this mean that the word of life is an “it” and not a person. We know from John 1:1-2 that the Word is an eternal “person” and in nature God, yet distinct from the Father. This doesn’t change—it cannot change—when it comes to 1 John 1.

To say the word of life or the Word is an “it” is utter blasphemy.

Most versions of 1 John 1:1-3 refers to the "word of life" expressly as an it that revealed or manifested a human. John is the author of 1 John 1:1-3 and John 1:1-14.

Since the Word is not both a he and an it at the same time, the common denominator here is that the "word" in John 1:1-14 doesn't refer to God but rather a god or something godly.

I recall we discussed this before and I am sure you recall how there are two uses of "God" in John 1:1; "Ton Theon" (the God) and theos (a god). Provided that the Word is called "a god" rather than the definitive God, then it wouldn't make sense to say both God and the Word are God.

Since this is the case, calling the Word simply "god" rather than "the God" could be understood as something qualitative like godliness, i.e., the word is godly.

In addition to the plain text meaning of the Word (logos) literally meaning a word, speech, or divine utterance, the best possible solution for John 1:1-14 is that the Word is being personified and manifested as a man; i.e., Jesus is the begotten Son of God. This doesn't contradict 1 John 1:1-3 since non-person things are personified with frequency throughout the Bible while being rightly understood to not be a literal person. (Wisdom is a woman, the church is a bride, words are a he, etc)

On top of all of that, apostle John didn't believe Jesus is God. The best example I can think of is Acts 4:23-24,27 where together with Peter he prayed to God and referred to Jesus as His servant.

 

[Randy]

The Father sets the judgement.

The father also had a plan to get around the Judgement.

The Son did the will of the Father to provide eternal life to those who believe and acknowledge the plan around sin.

The Son will judge at The Day, and return things to the Father.

Till that Day we are aided (in time) by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now the redneck words may not fit everyone.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I believe everyone hear mostly agrees with this but it's a discussion about who Jesus is and the relationship with the Father. Did He preexist the incarnation in the form of God as the Son? Was He with the Father in the beginning?

 

[eddif]

I believe everyone hear mostly agrees with this but it's a discussion about who Jesus is and the relationship with the Father. Did He preexist the incarnation in the form of God as the Son? Was He with the Father in the beginning?

Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?​

The title and first post are broad.

IMHO The Godhead is discussed. I am for agreement.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Dmytro]

Philippians 2:5 told the Philippians to have the same mind as Jesus and then he went on to explain what that mind is.

The external appearance of Jesus isn't that he visually looks like God because God isn't a human, but this is in regards to Jesus' behavior. Jesus was godly, righteous, holy, etc; things that normal Christians should be. Imitating God is also something humanly possible according to Paul.

Ephesians 5
1Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children,

Why do you think Jesus wasn't created?

Because through him everything was created and without him nothing was created that was created. So he is a creator and not a creation.

He's a man isn't he?

Of course no. He was before his birth, how is he a man.

 

[Dmytro]

If I understand you correctly, you think that Revelation 5:6 refers to the Lambs eyes, but where did you see that? Look at the verse again. It says the horns and eyes are representative of something. I think the leap you're making is that it means Jesus is either omniscient or omnipresent and that simply isn't what it says.

Revelation 5
6Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Here is where a knowledge of Greek is needed. But in any case both seven horns and eyes are the seven spirits of God. We see with our eyes so this means he sees what's happening all over the earth though those spirits.

7 Whither do I go from Thy Spirit? And whither from Thy face do I flee?
8 If I ascend the heavens -- there Thou [art], And spread out a couch in Sheol, lo, Thee!
9 I take the wings of morning, I dwell in the uttermost part of the sea,
10 Also there Thy hand doth lead me, And Thy right hand doth hold me.

When was on earth Jesus knew person's thoughts and intentions and what was happening far from him. And with his message to the seven churches he also showed he knew everything.

 

[Dmytro]

The Father sets the judgement.

The father also had a plan to get around the Judgement.

The Son did the will of the Father to provide eternal life to those who believe and acknowledge the plan around sin.

The Son will judge at The Day, and return things to the Father.

Till that Day we are aided (in time) by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now the redneck words may not fit everyone.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Dmytro]

I believe everyone hear mostly agrees with this but it's a discussion about who Jesus is and the relationship with the Father.

Jesus is a stumbling block and a foundation of salvation at the same time This topic is extremely important.

Did He preexist the incarnation in the form of God as the Son?

Yes, before his incarnation he was with the Father. Them two were in the heavens.

Was He with the Father in the beginning?

Yes, before the creation of everything he was with the Father. He's never been born and has no beginning. The terms 'father' and 'son' in their case describe the transfer of ownership, authority and reign by inheritance rather than origin by birth. I may be unclear here, sorry for my bad English.

 

[Dmytro]

Also, see HERE.

In 1 John 1:1-3, John uses some language from John 1:1-18 in alluding to the entire life and ministry of Jesus, and indirectly refers to the Word, in whom “was life, and the life was the light of men” (John 1:4). John refers to the empirical evidences that proved the Son was the eternal life “which was was the Father.”

In no way whatsoever does this mean that the word of life is an “it” and not a person. We know from John 1:1-2 that the Word is an eternal “person” and in nature God, yet distinct from the Father. This doesn’t change—it cannot change—when it comes to 1 John 1.

To say the word of life or the Word is an “it” is utter blasphemy.

Free said Word is an eternal 'person'. So I assume the Father and the Holy Spirit are also 'persons' with those quotes. We can discuss this.

I personally believe in three persons in a usual, familiar to everybody sense of the word:

1. Yahweh God, the Father
2. Jesus Christ, his Son
3. The Holy Spirit

All three are equally divine. Title 'God' properly belongs to the Father. Jesus is God's unique Son, our Lord and is God by nature. The Holy Spirit is the one who actually implements, acting in their shadow.

Question to all: do you consider this view biblical?

 

[eddif]

I think I g coo will ramble Romans 1:20

The potential of having a son was in my DNA from my birth. From my wifes birth my son was already there. In the fullness of time my son was born.

Symbolism is a hard row to hoe. Please do not ask for a 500 word explanation of what I typed.

The desire for a child is a reality that can manifest.

Again Romans 1:20

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

The terms 'father' and 'son' in their case describe the transfer of ownership, authority and reign by inheritance rather than origin by birth. I may be unclear here, sorry for my bad English.

Might one easily go with the plain text, common sense, reading of "father" and "son" because the Bible says God is Jesus' Father? The Bible literally says Jesus was procreated, begotten, is God's offspring on a specific day. Psalm 2:7, Hebrews 1:5

So that's actually sola scriptura.

Interpretations are actually why there are so many denominations. People see "father and son" and say "no no no, that's not it." After that they change what it plainly means and start accusing others of sin when others don't magically see what what they themselves see, much like you brazenly did in an earlier comment.

Since you have made the "father" and "son" relationship entirely rhetorical, what is your workaround for the Bible saying God is literally Jesus' Father?

Hebrews 1
5For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?


G1080. gennaó
Strong's Concordance
gennaó: to beget, to bring forth
Original Word: γεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)
Definition: to beget, to bring forth
Usage: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.

 

[Runningman]

Here is where a knowledge of Greek is needed. But in any case both seven horns and eyes are the seven spirits of God. We see with our eyes so this means he sees what's happening all over the earth though those spirits.

Yes, Jesus was given insight by God into peoples' minds at times by God, but that power didn't come from himself. Jesus readily admitted he could do nothing without God. The source of power is always God the Father.

However, generally speaking, Jesus isn't no omniscient, had to be taught the gospel, doesn't know what God knows, etc.


Jesus doesn't know what God knows:

Matthew 24​

36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​

Jesus doesn't know fig season:

Mark 11​

12The next day, when they had left Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if there was any fruit on it. But when He reached it, He found nothing on it except leaves, since it was not the season for figs. ​

Jesus had to be taught the gospel:

John 8​

28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.​

7 Whither do I go from Thy Spirit? And whither from Thy face do I flee?
8 If I ascend the heavens -- there Thou [art], And spread out a couch in Sheol, lo, Thee!
9 I take the wings of morning, I dwell in the uttermost part of the sea,
10 Also there Thy hand doth lead me, And Thy right hand doth hold me.

When was on earth Jesus knew person's thoughts and intentions and what was happening far from him. And with his message to the seven churches he also showed he knew everything.

Jesus didn't know what the message to the 7 churches was until God gave it to him:

Revelation 1
1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soona come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Runningman]

I think I g coo will ramble Romans 1:20

The potential of having a son was in my DNA from my birth. From my wifes birth my son was already there. In the fullness of time my son was born.

Symbolism is a hard row to hoe. Please do not ask for a 500 word explanation of what I typed.

The desire for a child is a reality that can manifest.

Again Romans 1:20

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Amen. I think. 2

 

[eddif]

Amen. I think. 2

I am very near not being able to work on a smart phone. Too small for me.

Everything Jesus spoke to the multitudes was in the physical / literal area.
The seed were dropped on road
Some seed were on rocky ground
Some seed on good ground,

There was no explanation. For the crowds the teaching was in code.

The disciples did not get the hidden meaning. They asked Jesus why he spoke in parables? Jesus told the disciples the meaning. The disciples did not get the meaning (till he told the meaning).

My post was like Jesus would talk. Hidden in human anatomy is a hint at higher level understanding.

I want us all on both levels. I am not super intelligent. It took 40 plus years for the Holy Spirit to drag me through all this. The disciples really did not (IMHO) get it till Pentecost. Were they told? Yes. Did it reall work when Jesus told them? No.

All of us let our body imagery slip by us at times past.

We disagree because we do not see the other persons condition (when we might were there one time ourselves).

Talking about this on this thread could work. Will it work? I do not know.

We start life without the law written in our heart and mind. It takes being born again to get those things.

If some barely get symbolism with the Holy Spirit? What about those who think we are nuts? I say work with everyone.

By the way salvation does not depend on all of what I am talking about.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are so we Can Witness.

We witness:
Repentance
Salvation in Christ Jesus
Baptism in Holy Spirit
All things Jesus commaanded

Everyone is not called to preach.

Joke time
So the farmer said God what am I to do .
Looking at the clouds he made out GP
So the farmer set about (Go Preach)
Years later after failing at preaching
The farmer asked God where he failed?
God answered maybe the GP was
(Go Plow)
I don’t believe thst asking for a sign is biblical.

We sometimes elevate our calling beyond what we really got. I didn’t get much.


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

I am very near not being able to work on a smart phone. Too small for me.

Everything Jesus spoke to the multitudes was in the physical / literal area.
The seed were dropped on road
Some seed were on rocky ground
Some seed on good ground,

There was no explanation. For the crowds the teaching was in code.

The disciples did not get the hidden meaning. They asked Jesus why he spoke in parables? Jesus told the disciples the meaning. The disciples did not get the meaning (till he told the meaning).

My post was like Jesus would talk. Hidden in human anatomy is a hint at higher level understanding.

I want us all on both levels. I am not super intelligent. It took 40 plus years for the Holy Spirit to drag me through all this. The disciples really did not (IMHO) get it till Pentecost. Were they told? Yes. Did it reall work when Jesus told them? No.

All of us let our body imagery slip by us at times past.

We disagree because we do not see the other persons condition (when we might were there one time ourselves).

Talking about this on this thread could work. Will it work? I do not know.

We start life without the law written in our heart and mind. It takes being born again to get those things.

If some barely get symbolism with the Holy Spirit? What about those who think we are nuts? I say work with everyone.

By the way salvation does not depend on all of what I am talking about.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are so we Can Witness.

We witness:
Repentance
Salvation in Christ Jesus
Baptism in Holy Spirit
All things Jesus commaanded

Everyone is not called to preach.

Joke time
So the farmer said God what am I to do .
Looking at the clouds he made out GP
So the farmer set about (Go Preach)
Years later after failing at preaching
The farmer asked God where he failed?
God answered maybe the GP was
(Go Plow)
I don’t believe thst asking for a sign is biblical.

We sometimes elevate our calling beyond what we really got. I didn’t get much.


Mississippi redneck
eddif

Interesting sermon. It was thoughtful and interesting. I liked the joke, too, and it made me chuckle.

I would say that even Jesus had to be taught what the parables were and what they meant.

John 7
16“My teaching is not My own,” Jesus replied. “It comes from Him who sent Me.

John 8
28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.

 

[Randy]

I am very near not being able to work on a smart phone. Too small for me.

Everything Jesus spoke to the multitudes was in the physical / literal area.
The seed were dropped on road
Some seed were on rocky ground
Some seed on good ground,

There was no explanation. For the crowds the teaching was in code.

The disciples did not get the hidden meaning. They asked Jesus why he spoke in parables? Jesus told the disciples the meaning. The disciples did not get the meaning (till he told the meaning).

My post was like Jesus would talk. Hidden in human anatomy is a hint at higher level understanding.

I want us all on both levels. I am not super intelligent. It took 40 plus years for the Holy Spirit to drag me through all this. The disciples really did not (IMHO) get it till Pentecost. Were they told? Yes. Did it reall work when Jesus told them? No.

All of us let our body imagery slip by us at times past.

We disagree because we do not see the other persons condition (when we might were there one time ourselves).

Talking about this on this thread could work. Will it work? I do not know.

We start life without the law written in our heart and mind. It takes being born again to get those things.

If some barely get symbolism with the Holy Spirit? What about those who think we are nuts? I say work with everyone.

By the way salvation does not depend on all of what I am talking about.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are so we Can Witness.

We witness:
Repentance
Salvation in Christ Jesus
Baptism in Holy Spirit
All things Jesus commaanded

Everyone is not called to preach.

Joke time
So the farmer said God what am I to do .
Looking at the clouds he made out GP
So the farmer set about (Go Preach)
Years later after failing at preaching
The farmer asked God where he failed?
God answered maybe the GP was
(Go Plow)
I don’t believe thst asking for a sign is biblical.

We sometimes elevate our calling beyond what we really got. I didn’t get much.


Mississippi redneck
eddif

To be sure it was the Father living in the Son doing His work. They are one.
In fact all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ.

Colossians 2:3​

The Fathers works performed by Jesus testify that the Father is in Him and He in the Father. They are one.

The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”

To be sure the Divine Spirit of the Father stilled that storm at Jesus's powerful word. They are one.

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.