JOHN MACARTHUR

[NewLifeInChrist]

You say that God allows fallen creatures the freedom to choose what they want to do.
Yes. All Christians believe this.

My reformed family members and friends don't believe this. They say lost people have no ability to believe the gospel until and unless they are beneficiaries of irresistible grace, and then they have no ability to resist believing the gospel.

 

[JLB]

My reformed family members and friends don't believe this. They say lost people have no ability to believe the gospel

Lost refers to a person who was once saved, then they wandered away and became lost.

See the parable of the lost sheep, lost coin, and prodigal son.

Because we have heard this term lost many times in reference to people who are unbelievers who have never been saved, we develop what the scriptures call a stronghold; a device that resist’s the knowledge of the truth.


IOW’s you can’t lose something you never owned or possessed at one point.


The lost sheep was at one point, His sheep who became lost.


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?


Jesus is teaching His disciples the heart of a true shepherd.


I wonder if Pastors truly understood this, how many would want the biggest church in town?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Hello again NewLifeinChrist, as I said earlier (in my last reply to GodsGrace), in many cases it's not the best idea to take things that Calvin says by themselves, because what he writes is often meant for the sole purpose of furthering the discussion that he is presently engaged in, w/o regard to the whole of what he believes/teaches (for instance, he might be making use of a literary device, such as hyperbole, to make a point).

That said, I've read what others have pointed to (from Calvin's writings) about this, and why they believe that he may not hold to a limited atonement after all (as the other Reformers did), and I can see why they believe this, but I hope that the following teaching of his will help clear things up.

The teaching (doctrine or decree), that Calvin is perhaps most famous (or infamous ) for, is what he referred to as the "Decretum Horribilis" or "Horrible Decree" of God (Institutes 3/23/7). This decree teaches (in a nutshell) that God will not allow ~all~ of mankind to perish by remaining on the broad road to perdition .. e.g. Romans 3:9-12, but that He chose to step in and save some of us (a remnant out of the lot of us), who He then adopts, sanctifies and glorifies as His own children. He begins this transformation by quickening & changing the remnant of us into wholly new creatures, in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; John 3:3, 6:37-40, 44; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5.

So, this teaching involves God, on the one hand, choosing and saving a remnant out of the whole of humanity for Himself, while allowing (on the other hand) the rest of humanity to continue on their freely chosen path (the broad road to perdition, that is).

I hope that helps a bit!(?)

God bless you!!

--David

I don't know which one of the 5 points he was rumored to not fully embrace. Based on what you wrote above, I would say it looks like he thought part of the doctrine was horrible, but he figured out a way to accept it.

Part of what you wrote about their beliefs peeks my interest -- "who He then adopts, sanctifies and glorifies as His own children. He begins this transformation by quickening & changing the remnant of us into wholly new creatures, in Christ". The first part of it ("He then adopts, sanctifies and glorifies as His own children") raises a question as to whether they see us as literally His Children. The second part of it ("begins this transformation by quickening & changing the remnant of us into wholly new creatures") adds complexity to the discussion if they don't see us as God's offspring because if we are simply adopted and not birthed into His kingom, then what is the other event that makes us totally new creatures?

My pov is that we are God's children by birth, not simply adopted, and the new lives we have in Christ are ours by virtue of that fact. The quickening and the transformation and the new birth happen when God comes to live in our hearts. It is then that we are joined to the Lord and become one spirit with Him. I don't see a different event that gives us new life. Maybe they see only one event also but don't associate it with being born again? I don't know.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Lost refers to a person who was once saved, then they wandered away and became lost.

See the parable of the lost sheep, lost coin, and prodigal son.

Because we have heard this term lost many times in reference to people who are unbelievers who have never been saved, we develop what the scriptures call a stronghold; a device that resist’s the knowledge of the truth.

IOW’s you can’t lose something you never owned or possessed at one point.

The lost sheep was at one point, His sheep who became lost.

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

Jesus is teaching His disciples the heart of a true shepherd.

I wonder if Pastors truly understood this, how many would want the biggest church in town?

"Lost" and "saved" are antonyms. Humanity became "lost" when sin entered the world through Adam. And God sent His Son to save that which was lost...

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (Jn 3:14–17)​

and,

For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost (Mt 18:11).​

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello again NewLifeinChrist, as I said earlier (in my last reply to GodsGrace), in many cases it's not the best idea to take things that Calvin says by themselves, because what he writes is often meant for the sole purpose of furthering the discussion that he is presently engaged in, w/o regard to the whole of what he believes/teaches (for instance, he might be making use of a literary device, such as hyperbole, to make a point).

That said, I've read what others have pointed to (from Calvin's writings) about this, and why they believe that he may not hold to a limited atonement after all (as the other Reformers did), and I can see why they believe this, but I hope that the following teaching of his will help clear things up.

The teaching (doctrine or decree), that Calvin is perhaps most famous (or infamous ) for, is what he referred to as the "Decretum Horribilis" or "Horrible Decree" of God (Institutes 3/23/7). This decree teaches (in a nutshell) that God will not allow ~all~ of mankind to perish by remaining on the broad road to perdition .. e.g. Romans 3:9-12, but that He chose to step in and save some of us (a remnant out of the lot of us), who He then adopts, sanctifies and glorifies as His own children. He begins this transformation by quickening & changing the remnant of us into wholly new creatures, in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27; John 3:3, 6:37-40, 44; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5.

So, this teaching involves God, on the one hand, choosing and saving a remnant out of the whole of humanity for Himself, while allowing (on the other hand) the rest of humanity to continue on their freely chosen path (the broad road to perdition, that is).

I hope that helps a bit!(?)

God bless you!!

--David

You tagged me so I'm going to reply.

What you mention above about God choosing to save some of the lost is not justice.
I'll ask you what I've asked every Calvinist believer till now and have not, as yet, received a reply.

What is justice?

You see st. worm,,,if you answer that question you'll be forced to accept that in calvinist theology, God is not a just God. Since we know that we receive our desire for justice from God, and the scriptures teach that he is a just God,,,then there's something here that doesn't align.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know which one of the 5 points he was rumored to not fully embrace. Based on what you wrote above, I would say it looks like he thought part of the doctrine was horrible, but he figured out a way to accept it.

Part of what you wrote about their beliefs peeks my interest -- "who He then adopts, sanctifies and glorifies as His own children. He begins this transformation by quickening & changing the remnant of us into wholly new creatures, in Christ". The first part of it ("He then adopts, sanctifies and glorifies as His own children") raises a question as to whether they see us as literally His Children. The second part of it ("begins this transformation by quickening & changing the remnant of us into wholly new creatures") adds complexity to the discussion if they don't see us as God's offspring because if we are simply adopted and not birthed into His kingom, then what is the other event that makes us totally new creatures?

My pov is that we are God's children by birth, not simply adopted, and the new lives we have in Christ are ours by virtue of that fact. The quickening and the transformation and the new birth happen when God comes to live in our hearts. It is then that we are joined to the Lord and become one spirit with Him. I don't see a different event that gives us new life. Maybe they see only one event also but don't associate it with being born again? I don't know.

Who is the THEY that you speak of?

 

[GodsGrace]

My reformed family members and friends don't believe this. They say lost people have no ability to believe the gospel until and unless they are beneficiaries of irresistible grace, and then they have no ability to resist believing the gospel.

I know NewLife....
I know what your family members believe.
This is because you don't believe in free will....
This is because you believe that depravity (or total depravity as you call it)
deprives mankind from the ability to be able to choose God.
For this reason,,,,man's inability, it is up to God to do everything for man....
It is up to God to decide who will be saved and who will not,,,
and based on nothing at all that we can know of...it's all one big mystery.

So, basically, your premise is that man is unable to seek God.
Romans states that there is no one who seeks God.
I'm going to post many verses that state that man is ABLE to seek God.

So,,,,Now what do we do??
How to resolve this conflict in scripture?
Could Romans 3:10 means something totally different?

Here are your verses about man's ability to seek God:

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

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Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

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Lamentations 3:25​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

2 Chronicles 7:14​

If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Jeremiah 29:12-14​

Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

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Acts 17:27​

That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,


There are many more....

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[GodsGrace]

My reformed family members and friends don't believe this. They say lost people have no ability to believe the gospel until and unless they are beneficiaries of irresistible grace, and then they have no ability to resist believing the gospel.

There are also many verses that prove that we are able to resist the Holy Spirit.
Maybe we could take one topic at a time?

Reformed/Calvinist theology causes many conflicts within scripture.

 

[JLB]

For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost (Mt 18:11).

Yes the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, lost sheep are sheep that were at one time owned by the Shepherd.