Law of God/Moses/Christ/the Spirit

Interesting. The above states that the redemption of "our body" is something Paul was waiting for. Not enjoying, not happy about, but rather groaning about. He was waiting for adoption, waiting for redemption, of "our body". "Body" is singular.
Yes, body is singular. You said that "our flesh is not in need of redemption," yet Paul says that "we wait eagerly for . . . the redemption of our bodies." Therefore, our flesh is in need of redemption, especially since as it is, it cannot inherit the kingdom of God, also according to Paul. It must be redeemed, changed "in the twinkling of an eye," if it is to enter heaven.
 
The Lord has said, that the flesh does not benefit. Therefore, it does not. Our flesh is not in need of redemption; it is doomed to die.
Hi, yes but context is important. And I already explained what I gathered from the context. So I disagree Seeing that the passage considered is what we can cannot do in our natural ability. Flesh does not always mean the meat on the bone...it sometimes mean what we can or cannot do in our natural ability.

While we are alive we are to live as things will one day be. I mean who are we really. We live our lives through our bodies. If our bodies cannot be redeemed then our lives can't either.

But if you wish to apply it like that then so be it to your understanding.
But in my view not only does the Bible say our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, but everything we do in them is to Glorify God. So would you also take the scripture and apply them to those passages without the context in mind?
But again whatever you decide so be it to your understanding.
 
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One thing for sure is in our bodies we can expeience God's presence. I feel that is what our lives here are about.

Jesus came that He might destroy the works of the devil.

It's sin that seperates us from God. And it's sin that is said to be in our members.

But in Christ we are to be transformed. I believe Romans 8 explains this.

If my thought is correct that: to condem sin in the flesh means- He died for our sins, so the righteous requirements of the law might be fullfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit.

Then what parts of our being is being redeemed..when we fullfill the law? For sure the body. For not only does what we do help to shape our character, but are character is shaped by what we do...lol..I think...
 
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Interesting. The above states that the redemption of "our body" is something Paul was waiting for. Not enjoying, not happy about, but rather groaning about. He was waiting for adoption, waiting for redemption, of "our body". "Body" is singular.
Brother jonathanbrickman0000, I usually use Paint on my computer to post verses since I’m more of a visual thinker..but I’ve noticed I can’t do that here, so I’ll just share it like this instead.

Romans 8:23 (KJV):

“And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

Greek Verb 1: ἔχοντες
Form: Present Active Participle, Nominative Masculine Plural

Root: ἔχω (to have)

Meaning: “having”

Usage: Refers to those who currently possess the firstfruits of the Spirit

Greek Verb 2: στενάζομεν
Form: Present Active Indicative, 1st Person Plural

Root: στενάζω (to groan)

Meaning: “we groan”

Usage: Describes the ongoing inward groaning of believers

Greek Verb 3: ἀπεκδεχόμενοι
Form: Present Middle Participle, Nominative Masculine Plural

Root: ἀπεκδέχομαι (to wait eagerly, to await fully)

Meaning: “eagerly awaiting”

Usage: Implies active, hopeful anticipation for the adoption and redemption

Paul refers to the future glorification of the body, which is consistent with Romans 8:30 and Philippians 3:21, where believers await their bodies to be transformed at the resurrection.

Thus, while the noun ἀπολύτρωσις has no grammatical tense, the action is clearly eschatological, referring to a future event..the bodily resurrection.

Maybe I can get some clarification on how to use Paint here?

God bless.

Johann
 
Yes, body is singular. You said that "our flesh is not in need of redemption," yet Paul says that "we wait eagerly for . . . the redemption of our bodies." Therefore, our flesh is in need of redemption, especially since as it is, it cannot inherit the kingdom of God, also according to Paul. It must be redeemed, changed "in the twinkling of an eye," if it is to enter heaven.
Brother if I may, can I use Paint to post verses here? I have noticed it doesn't work on this Forum.

Johann.
 
1 Thes 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why should He say this if it profited nothing?
 
Hey Jo do you preach or teach?
A bit of both..I was an ordained pastor at The Ark in Durban, where we actively put Matthew 25 into practice through an outreach ministry modeled after the work of David Wilkerson; I’ve also had the privilege of meeting Nicky Cruz in person.

God bless.

Johann.
 
So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and the Law of Christ should not be considered to be contrary to anything that Christ taught.


I am going to disagree with this statement, although I know many see it your way; but Jesus did NOT teach his followers how to correctly obey the law of Moses, neither by word nor by example.

What he correctly taught was how the law condemns you. You in your own self-righteousness might say I have never committed adultery, I have ever only been with one women my whole life; But Jesus said if you look at a women with lust in your heart, then the law of Moses condemns you of adultery. Or, again the self righteous would say I have never killed another man, but Jesus say it doesn't matter, if you have hate in your heart for another, then the law of Moses condemns you of murder.

To be crucified with Christ, you must let the law condemn you in all things.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Jesus and his disciples went about picking corn on the sabbath. That was not following the law, that was making an open show of the law and those who make themselves judges over the law, triumphing over them. What man of you having an ox...?
 
I am going to disagree with this statement, although I know many see it your way; but Jesus did NOT teach his followers how to correctly obey the law of Moses, neither by word nor by example.

:salute
 
Brother if I may, can I use Paint to post verses here? I have noticed it doesn't work on this Forum.

Johann.
Do you mean Microsoft Paint? Why do you need that to post verses? I don’t even know how you would go about that.
 
Do you mean Microsoft Paint? Why do you need that to post verses? I don’t even know how you would go about that.
All good brother-there's a misunderstanding here.

Forget I mentioned Microsoft Paint as if I want to post ALL verses or passages in that manner/format.

But I can show you, if you are interested.

J.
 
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I am going to disagree with this statement, although I know many see it your way; but Jesus did NOT teach his followers how to correctly obey the law of Moses, neither by word nor by example.
And here I'm going to have to disagree with your statement.


1. Jesus’ Teaching on the Law:
Jesus explicitly affirmed and clarified the proper understanding of the Law of Moses.

Matthew 5:17: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Matthew 5:21–48: Jesus reinterprets and deepens the commandments, moving beyond mere external observance to address the heart and intentions.

Matthew 23:23: "These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Here, Jesus affirms the importance of justice, mercy, and faith as the weightier matters of the law.

2. Jesus’ Example of Obedience:
Jesus lived in perfect obedience to the Law, serving as a model for righteousness.

John 8:46: "Which of you convinceth me of sin?" This rhetorical question highlights Jesus’ sinless adherence to God’s commands.

Matthew 17:24–27: Jesus instructs Peter to pay the temple tax, showing respect for the Mosaic regulations.

Luke 2:21–24: As an infant, Jesus was circumcised and presented at the temple according to the Law of Moses.

3. Clarifying Misunderstandings:
While Jesus did not endorse legalism or the Pharisaical traditions that distorted the Law’s intent, He did teach how to properly understand and live out the commandments in a way that aligned with God's original purpose.

Mark 7:8: "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men..." Jesus criticized adding human traditions, not the Law itself.

Matthew 23:1–3: Jesus acknowledges the authority of the scribes and Pharisees when they teach from Moses’ seat but criticizes their hypocrisy and failure to practice what they preach.

So, in essence--
It would be more accurate to say that Jesus taught His followers how to correctly understand and fulfill the Law of Moses, emphasizing its true spiritual intent rather than mere outward conformity.


PAUL'S VIEWS OF THE MOSAIC LAW

Paul follows Jesus' understanding of the relationship between the Old Covenant and His New Covenant (see SPECIAL TOPIC: WHY ARE OT COVENANT PROMISES SO DIFFERENT FROM NT COVENANT PROMISES?). This is clearly seen in
Matthew 5:17-19, affirmation of the inspiration and eternality of OT revelation.
Matthew 5:21-48, affirmation of the superiority of Jesus' words as ultimate revelation from YHWH. He clarifies and reinterprets both
the law of Moses, vv. 31-32
the Oral Traditions of the Jews
He also intensifies the prohibitions from the act to the thought

The Mosaic Law is good and is from God (cf. Matt. 5:17-19; Rom. 7:12,16). Galatians 3 is a major NT text on how the OT functions in the New Age.
It is not the way to righteousness and acceptance by God (it can even be a curse, cf. Gal. 3:13).
It is still God's will for believers because it is God's self-revelation (cf. Matt. 5:17-19, Paul often quotes the OT to convict and/or encourage believers).

It functions in sanctification, not justification!

Believers are informed by the OT (cf. Rom. 4:23-24; 15:4; 1 Cor. 10:6,11), but not saved by the OT (cf. Acts 15; Romans 4; Galatians 3; the book of Hebrews). See SPECIAL TOPIC: MOSAIC LAW AND THE CHRISTIAN
It functions in the New Covenant to:
show sinfulness (cf. Gal. 3:15-29)
guide redeemed mankind in society
inform Christian ethical decisions
 It is this theological spectrum related to the Law, from cursing (cf. Gal. 3:10-13) and passing away to blessing and permanency that causes the problem in trying to understand Paul's view of the Mosaic Law. In A Man in Christ, James Stewart shows Paul's paradoxical thinking and writing:

 "You would normally expect a man who was setting himself to construct a system of thought and doctrine to fix as rigidly as possible the meanings of the terms he employed. You would expect him to aim at precision in the phraseology of his leading ideas. You would demand that a word, once used by your writer in a particular sense, should bear that sense throughout. But to look for this from Paul is to be disappointed. Much of his phraseology is fluid, not rigid. . . 'The law is holy' he writes, 'I delight in the law of God after the inward man' (cf. Rom. 7:12,22) but it is clearly another aspect of nomos that makes him say elsewhere, 'Christ had redeemed us from the curse of the law' (cf. Gal. 3:13)" (p. 26).

From 2 Cor. 3:7-11, Paul discusses Exod. 34:23-35. In v. 13 he compares the OT vs. NT using Moses' veil
Paul makes several comparisons between Moses' covenant and Jesus' covenant.
the Lord of Exodus = the Spirit of Jesus
only Moses could approach God intimately versus all believers in Christ can approach God
Moses' glory faded versus Jesus' glory never fades
Moses' followers cannot see Christ in the OT versus Jesus' followers through the Spirit can correctly interpret the OT in light of Christ
Moses brought the bondage of performance versus Christ brings the freedom of grace
the letter of the Mosaic Law brings death versus the Spirit of the New Covenant brings life, life eternal, life abundant
Moses' covenant was unable to produce a righteous people versus Jesus' covenant does produce righteous people (both objectively in justification and subjectively in sanctification), see SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION


God bless.

J.
 
A bit of both..I was an ordained pastor at The Ark in Durban, where we actively put Matthew 25 into practice through an outreach ministry modeled after the work of David Wilkerson; I’ve also had the privilege of meeting Nicky Cruz in person.

God bless.

Johann.

Beautiful. :salute
 
Matthew 5:17: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Please take notice of a very important and much overlooked word in the verse you quoted, as well as the two other verses I will add.

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


The Question:

Does the word until denote that which is temporary or that which is permanent?


Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every truth be established.
 
Please take notice of a very important and much overlooked word in the verse you quoted, as well as the two other verses I will add.

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


The Question:

Does the word until denote that which is temporary or that which is permanent?
Temporary by means of it being the source of salvation(righteousness)but not the course of salvation.(righteousness)
Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every truth be established.
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

The law is grace a gift.
Legalism is opposed to grace.
 
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The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

The law is grace a gift.
Legalism is opposed to grace.

The law of the LORD is what Abraham walked in 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5
 
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