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Of course I believe Mary was a virgin.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
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Perpetual virginity of Mary!
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Of course I believe Mary was a virgin.
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What is this supposed to show?
Luk 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” (ESV)
I am not denying that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived in her. However, in no way whatsoever does it support the idea that Mary remained a virgin.
Of course Jesus isn't biologically Joseph's son, but he is Mary's biological son, just as are all his brothers and sisters.
What kind of argument is this? Of course James isn't the son of God; he is the son of (likely) Joseph and Mary. Jesus is the only Son of God, having been conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. Jesus's brothers and sisters were conceived in Mary by (likely) Joseph. Keep things in context.
In that case, the common element is Jacob; that's what makes four groups of half-brothers. In the case of Jesus, the common element is Mary. This really isn't difficult to understand how half-siblings work.
We see that Mary is told her "relative Elizabeth . . . has also conceived a son" (Luke 1:36). And, yet, you don't find it odd that John the Baptist, who is literally a second cousin to Jesus, is never said to be his brother (or cousin or relative), but that when, in the context of his hometown, Jesus's father, mother, brothers, and sisters are mentioned, that somehow it's referring to close relatives? It doesn't add up, at all.
The more one looks at it, the more the claim that Mary remained a virgin can be seen to be entirely without basis. It's Mary worship; it's idolatry.
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no its not
brethren refers to the jews those of the tribe of Judah
In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.
Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..
Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.
The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!
Brothers of Jesus Not the children of Mary!
Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.
Acts 4:36
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
(Cannot be Mary’s child, Mary was of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!) Lk 1:32-33
Lk 1:34 no sex ever!
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By saying Your mother together with Your brothers, it is contextually clear these are Mary’s biological sons.
But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Galatians 1:19
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is Joseph the biological father of Jesus?
does scripture say so?
Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter's son?
Lk 1: 48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Jn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
thks
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No. Jesus was born of a virgin.
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Christians must be taught or instructed in the faith revealed by Christ and taught by His command! matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Matt 5:14
Matt 6:33
matt 16:18-19
matt 18:17-18
Matt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21
Acts 2:42
Acts 16:17
Acts 8:31
Titus 1:9
Titus 2:12
Phil 4:9
Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…
Christians are bound by the truths revealed by Christ and taught by His church. (matt 28:19, 1 tim 3:15) Taught in scripture, dogma, the decree's of the apostolic councils, and creeds.
And they teach the perpetual virginity of Mary just as they teach the virgin birth!
hope it helps!
The faith that is binding on all Christians! Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18
dogma
Mother of the redeemer
102. Mary is truly the Mother of God. (Lk 1:43)
103. Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin. (gen 3:5 Lk 1:28 Rev 12/1)
104. Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man. (matt 1:20-23 Lk 1:35)
105. Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity. (Isa7:14)
106. Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin.
107. Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ. (Lk 1:28)
108. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (rev 12:1)
The official acts of the Fifth Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in 553 refer to Mary as aeiparthenos (i.e. ever-virgin). For example, an anathema against the 'three chapters' condemns those who deny:
that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her ...
The Lateran Council of 649 convened by Pope Martin I also issued an important statement affirming Mary's lifelong virginity:
If anyone does not, according to the Holy Fathers, confess truly and properly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was born of God the Father, and gave birth to Him without corruption, her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be anathema
thks
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acts 1:8 witnesses
St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):
"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.
For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.
“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.
“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.
“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.
“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."
St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):
"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.
For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.
“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.
“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.
“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.
“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."
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Martin Luther
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we Believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
Note: an article of faith is required for salvation.
John Calvin
(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)
Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])
John Wesley
‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).
They also believe the immaculate conception of mary and her sinlessness, and assumption and mother of God and devotion to Her!
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we Believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
Note: an article of faith is required for salvation.
John Calvin
(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)
Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])
John Wesley
‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).
They also believe the immaculate conception of mary and her sinlessness, and assumption and mother of God and devotion to Her!
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many years in Egypt and still no other children?
matt 2:19-21
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
Jesus is 12 and still no other children in the family?
Lk 2:42-52 no mention of other children?
at the cross still no other children?
Jn 19:26-27
Lk 1:34 never replaced!
that's a lot so no hurry
matt 2:19-21
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
Jesus is 12 and still no other children in the family?
Lk 2:42-52 no mention of other children?
at the cross still no other children?
Jn 19:26-27
Lk 1:34 never replaced!
that's a lot so no hurry
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is James the "son of God"?
"that holy thing"?
that which is born of Mary most holy mother of God!
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
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No, it doesn't help. If something isn't taught in Scripture, it isn't to be believed. There is no such thing as "the perpetual virginity of Mary." I have shown why the evidence points to that as nonsense.
None of this is relevant to the Christian faith as given in the Bible. Mary was conceived with the stain of original sin, the same as every other human; Mary almost certainly did not remain a virgin; there is nothing in Rev. 12:1 to suggest that "Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven." These are all ungodly, unbiblical teachings of men.
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What does this mean?
False teaching that entered the Church somewhat early.
Which is all absolutely, utterly wrong. Believing that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life could keep one from being saved. In no way whatsoever is it necessary to believe it in order to be saved. That is a false gospel.
"Many years in Egypt." We don't know how long they were in Egypt. It could have been a few weeks, a year, or a few years.
Luk 2:21 And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Luk 2:22 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (ESV)
Note that Jesus was circumcised "at the end of eight days," so they were still in Bethlehem. Then note that "the time for their purification" came, which was 40 days after the birth of a male son.
Luk 2:39 And when they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth. (ESV)
When the purification was completed, they then returned to Nazareth. But, when did they first arrive at Nazareth?
Mat 2:7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.” (ESV)
Note that Joseph, Mary, and Jesus are still in Bethlehem.
Mat 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.”
Mat 2:14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt
Mat 2:15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. (ESV)
Bethlehem is only about two hours from Jerusalem. Herod would have fairly quickly figured out he had been tricked and organized the death of male children in Bethlehem.
Mat 2:19 But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Mat 2:20 saying, “Rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the child's life are dead.”
Mat 2:21 And he rose and took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel.
Mat 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there, and being warned in a dream he withdrew to the district of Galilee.
Mat 2:23 And he went and lived in a city called Nazareth, so that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, that he would be called a Nazarene. (ESV)
Notice that Joseph was wanting to return to Judea, where Bethlehem is, but instead went to Nazareth. So, they first moved to Nazareth after they left Egypt, after Herod's death. Mary was then able to complete her purification at the required time, which was 40 days after the birth of Jesus. When that ritual was complete, they returned to Nazareth.
That sounds like a matter of a couple of weeks in Egypt.
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where does scripture say scripture is the rule of faith?
If you believe scripture you would believe the teaching of the apostolic church which alone possesses the authority of Jesus Christ in union with Jesus Christ! matt 28:19-20 matt 16:18:19 Jn 20:21-23 acts 1:1-8
Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12
The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14
Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3
The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17
Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6
Must Hear Christ!
matt 3:17
Must hear the Church!
Matt 18:17 matt 28:19 acts 1:8
The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15
thks
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most scholars say 4 to seven years
what about when he was 12?
or at the cross still no other children?
thks
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the church fathers (33ad to 700) and church doctors (after 700) are the witnesses of Christ which we must believe
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Some say two to four. Please address the passages I gave and my arguments based on them.
Perhaps you didn't notice but the gospels aren't about Jesus's brothers and sisters, they're about Jesus.
The Bible is what we are to believe. Too much error crept into the Church fairly early, as you have pointed out. Consider that it seems Eusebius supports what I have stated:
"It is worth while, in addition to this, to observe the reward which Herod received for his daring crime against Christ and those of the same age. For immediately, without the least delay, the divine vengeance overtook him while he was still alive, and gave him a foretaste of what he was to receive after death.
It is not possible to relate here how he tarnished the supposed felicity of his reign by successive calamities in his family, by the murder of wife and children, and others of his nearest relatives and dearest friends. The account, which casts every other tragic drama into the shade, is detailed at length in the histories of Josephus. (The Antiquities of the Jews AND The Wars of the Jews)
How, immediately after his crime against our Saviour and the other infants, the punishment sent by God drove him on to his death, we can best learn from the words of that historian (Josephus—37-100 AD) who, in the seventeenth book of his Antiquities of the Jews, writes as follows concerning his end:"
https://earlychurchhistory.org/politics/herod-the-greats-death/
