The Roman King

[RandyK]

All of Jesus` parables were `to confirm the promises made to the fathers...` (Rom. 15: 8) and refer back to the Old Testament with quotations from there.

Revelation -

To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.

This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

But not reveal anything but judgment to those who don't wish to go to Christ for understanding--the willfully wicked.

 

[Marilyn C]

But not reveal anything but judgment to those who don't wish to go to Christ for understanding--the willfully wicked.

Are you talking about the parables of Jesus?

 

[RandyK]

Are you talking about the parables of Jesus?

I was talking about all that you were talking about, the book of Revelation, prophecy, the parables, etc. They were not revealing Salvation, but rather, Judgment. Truth is only fully revealed to those who repent in Jesus' name so that in coming to Salvation they will come to know him who is Salvation.

 

[JLB]

RandyK

By the time of the destruction of the temple we have come to the year 70 AD and are still waiting for the 70th (1) week to begin.

So we agree that the 70th week begins sometime after 70AD, which is after the Temple is destroyed.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27


Again, falling back to our model of understanding how the prophetic time line begins and stops we see that a world ruling king has been given the authority by God for this.

That means the “he” in verse 27 refers to such a king.

The “he” grammatically refers to the last person mentioned…

The last person mentioned was “the prince who is to come”.

It was the people of the prince who is to come (a future prince) who destroyed the temple and city.

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

He confirms a covenant with many for one week. 7 years.

 

[RandyK]

Cool we are in agreement so far.

Sadly, I don't think so. I apologize if I'm not very clear about my beliefs on this.

So we agree there is three separate time periods in the 70 week timeline.

I believe 3 distinct time periods are mentioned, but I don't believe they are "separate." Rather, they are consecutive time periods, each with its own meaning.

The 1st period is, I believe, from Artaxerxes' decree in 457 BC, which was designed to complete the previous work on the Temple Worship and to initiate the final work on building Jerusalem, as well as setting up magistrates, etc. You can see this in Ezra 7.

From this time to 49 years later (7 Weeks) would take us to 408 BC. This is the time designated for completing the work, which was initially called for by King Cyrus in 537 BC.

Then next period, then, begins in 457 BC and ends in 26 AD, which is when Jesus began his earthly ministry in 26 AD. That's when the final Week begins, synonymous with Jesus' earthly ministry of 3.5 years. He was "cut off" in this Week, and we are told that sacrifice and offering was terminated in the midst of the Week.

And so, the final 3.5 years of the 70th Week were never fulfilled, nor were they intended to be fulfilled. The 70th Week was only intended to confirm God's covenant with Messiah when he was cut off in the middle of the Week.

The work ceased after 7 weeks. (I personally haven’t found in scripture where it says it was 49 years after Cyrus gave the command to restore that the next ruler gave the command to cease.) I have found the timeline in the genealogies though.

The work ceased -

Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Ezra 4:23-24

The work restored again through Darius -

Moreover I issue a decree as to what you shall do for the elders of these Jews, for the building of this house of God: Let the cost be paid at the king’s expense from taxes on the region beyond the River; this is to be given immediately to these men, so that they are not hindered. And whatever they need—young bulls, rams, and lambs for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the request of the priests who are in Jerusalem—let it be given them day by day without fail, that they may offer sacrifices of sweet aroma to the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king and his sons.
Also I issue a decree that whoever alters this edict, let a timber be pulled from his house and erected, and let him be hanged on it; and let his house be made a refuse heap because of this. And may the God who causes His name to dwell there destroy any king or people who put their hand to alter it, or to destroy this house of God which is in Jerusalem. I Darius issue a decree; let it be done diligently. Ezra 6:8-12

Needless to say, the prophecy continued for the next 62 weeks without hindrance.

After Cyrus issued his decree to see Jerusalem and the Temple restored the project began with a restoration of the Temple. However, this project wasn't completed for several consecutive reigns. Artaxerxes in Ezra 7 began the final period of this project, which is the beginning of the 49 year period we're talking about.

Back to the timeline -

By the time of the destruction of the temple we have come to the year 70 AD and are still waiting for the 70th (1) week to begin.

The 70 Weeks were, I think, exhausted when Jesus died. But the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed after that. Jesus said it would be in the same generation still alive during his time. That happened in 70 AD. I don't think it has anything to do with the 70 Weeks period--it *followed* the completion of the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

So we agree that the 70th week begins sometime after 70AD, which is after the Temple is destroyed.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27


Again, falling back to our model of understanding how the prophetic time line begins and stops we see that a world ruling king has been given the authority by God for this.

That means the “he” in verse 27 refers to such a king.

The “he” grammatically refers to the last person mentioned…

The last person mentioned was “the prince who is to come”.

Yes, "he" would be the ruler who destroys the "city and the sanctuary." That would be the generic Roman ruler, consisting of several Roman rulers. The Roman ruler, Pontius Pilate, had Jesus killed, confirming God's covenant of sacrifice through Jesus' death. Pilate, of course, was not doing anything noble. But what he did indirectly confirmed God's sacrifice for sin.

Another Roman ruler, Titus, destroyed the city and the sanctuary. So "he" represents generically the Roman ruler in each phase that this prophecy was fulfilled.

It was the people of the prince who is to come (a future prince) who destroyed the temple and city.

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

He confirms a covenant with many for one week. 7 years.

Yes, I don't see this prophecy at all having to do with Antichrist or the future. This was fulfilled in history. Certainly, Antichrist is coming, but that is in Dan 7.

 

[JLB]

The 1st period is, I believe, from Artaxerxes'

Here is the command from the king of world ruling kingdom giving the command that begins the prophetic time clock.


Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.
Ezra 1:1-2

 

[RandyK]

Here is the command from the king of world ruling kingdom giving the command that begins the prophetic time clock.


Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.
Ezra 1:1-2

I agree that is the initial command to rebuild both Jerusalem and the Temple. We do not agree that Cyrus' decree in 537 BC was the starting date of the 70 Weeks. I see the 70 Weeks as Weeks of Years, indicating approx. 490 years. This is a very common way to look at it. If we count backwards from about 30 AD, the possible date of Jesus' death, we should go to 457 BC.

Here is the command from the king of world ruling kingdom giving the command that begins the prophetic time clock.


Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.
Ezra 1:1-2

Yes, but the math from Cyrus' decree doesn't work out. Plus, his decree did not rebuild Jerusalem. Only the Temple got started in the time of Zerubbabel.

A series of decrees were required to get it done. They all tried to fulfill the original decree from Cyrus, but only Artaxerxes' decree in 457 BC completed the job in 49 years. And it is from that date to 30 AD that accounts for 487 years to the middle of the 70th Week, when Christ died.

 

[Marilyn C]

I was talking about all that you were talking about, the book of Revelation, prophecy, the parables, etc. They were not revealing Salvation, but rather, Judgment. Truth is only fully revealed to those who repent in Jesus' name so that in coming to Salvation they will come to know him who is Salvation.

Jesus went to Israel to `confirm the promises made to the fathers,..` (Rom. 15: 8)

And one main promise was that Israel would rule over the nations of the earth. The rulership and those in that time Jesus described in His Matthew 13 parables.

 

[Marilyn C]

Daniel`s Prophecy of Sabbatical years.

From March 5, 444 BC (Neh. 2: 1 8 Artaxerxes Longimanus of Persia gives the Edict to rebuild Jerusalem and Temple)

- 476 years & 25 days (Prophetic 483 yrs of 360 days)

- to March 30: 33 AD. Messiah cut off April 3 AD 33. (Zech. 9:9 Luke 19: 19 - 44 Messiah appears as Prince - Palm Sunday)

 

[RandyK]

Jesus went to Israel to `confirm the promises made to the fathers,..` (Rom. 15: 8)

And one main promise was that Israel would rule over the nations of the earth. The rulership and those in that time Jesus described in His Matthew 13 parables.

Israel was divided between those trying to get in through the back gate and those going in through the front door. Those trying to sneak their way in were upset by Jesus' parables because though they couldn't understand them, they knew they were directed against them.

 

[RandyK]

Daniel`s Prophecy of Sabbatical years.

From March 5, 444 BC (Neh. 2: 1 8 Artaxerxes Longimanus of Persia gives the Edict to rebuild Jerusalem and Temple)

- 476 years & 25 days (Prophetic 483 yrs of 360 days)

- to March 30: 33 AD. Messiah cut off April 3 AD 33. (Zech. 9:9 Luke 19: 19 - 44 Messiah appears as Prince - Palm Sunday)

The problem with that is, these are Weeks of Years. A Year is 365 days--not 360 days. I can see awaiting a period of Years, but not many sets of 360 days. This is not likely a mathematical puzzle, but rather, an actual period of waiting.

But it may indeed have been Artaxerxes L. My understanding is that he had two decrees, one in his 7th year and one in his 20th year. The 20th year one just doesn't add up to the 70 Weeks period leading to Messah being cut off.

The date from 457 BC works out just fine with actual years leading to Jesus' earthly ministry and death.

 

[Marilyn C]

The problem with that is, these are Weeks of Years. A Year is 365 days--not 360 days. I can see awaiting a period of Years, but not many sets of 360 days. This is not likely a mathematical puzzle, but rather, an actual period of waiting.

The date from 457 BC works out just fine with actual years leading to Jesus' earthly ministry and death.

However, solar years are not how God is measuring, but Sabbatical years of 360 days. (2 Chron. 36: 21) Also, Revelation 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1,260 days, all Sabbatical years.

Why? because those Sabbatical counting is constant and can be placed alongside the Solar or the Jewish Lunar years.

 

[RandyK]

However, solar years are not how God is measuring, but Sabbatical years of 360 days. (2 Chron. 36: 21) Also, Revelation 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1,260 days, all Sabbatical years.

Why? because those Sabbatical counting is constant and can be placed alongside the Solar or the Jewish Lunar years.

Yes, I know. It just doesn't seem to be a practical way of counting while waiting for a period to be fulfilled. You can also get there with the 457 BC date. Either way....

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, I know. It just doesn't seem to be a practical way of counting while waiting for a period to be fulfilled.

But we use the Solar calendar & it is not constant with an extra day every four years, while the Jewish Lunar calendar has an extra month every three years or so. Thus, those calendars are not constant. And which does God use? He uses His very own calendar which is a constant measure and can be placed along any year Solar or Lunar.

Plus the 70 refers to Israel not keeping the Sabbaths for 70 years, thus exile to Babylon. Then, because Israel was rebellious for all the days in between, then that equals 70 x 7 and that is the time of Israel`s chastisement before restoration.

 

[JLB]

I agree that is the initial command to rebuild both Jerusalem and the Temple. We do not agree that Cyrus' decree in 537 BC was the starting date of the 70 Weeks. I see the 70 Weeks as Weeks of Years, indicating approx. 490 years. This is a very common way to look at it. If we count backwards from about 30 AD, the possible date of Jesus' death, we should go to 457 BC.

I believe the command to restore and rebuild the city and temple which of course started with the wall, was given by Cyrus.

I believe the decree from the ruler of the world, the world governing kingdom had been given the authority by God to start the 70 weeks timeline and cause it to stop and then cause it to start again until the first 69 weeks were completed.

• “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.
Ezra 1:1-2


The work ceased by the authority of the king at that time which was Artaxerxes.

Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Ezra 4:23-24


This is why the first 69 weeks was in two sections.

7 weeks and 62 weeks.

I have compiled a timeline from the scriptures if you are interested.

 

[RandyK]

I believe the command to restore and rebuild the city and temple which of course started with the wall, was given by Cyrus.

I believe the decree from the ruler of the world, the world governing kingdom had been given the authority by God to start the 70 weeks timeline and cause it to stop and then cause it to start again until the first 69 weeks were completed.

• “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.
Ezra 1:1-2


The work ceased by the authority of the king at that time which was Artaxerxes.

Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Ezra 4:23-24


This is why the first 69 weeks was in two sections.

7 weeks and 62 weeks.

I have compiled a timeline from the scriptures if you are interested.

Yes, I really don't care if this is your belief and conviction. It won't make a lot of difference in the Kingdom of God and in the lives of Christians. It's in the Bible and it is therefore important to some degree. But it isn't as important as major Christian doctrines. So I'm fine with your belief and with my belief. Thanks for sharing...