Is Second Coming IMMINENT?

[JLB]

Do you believe Christ could return at any moment or only after a tribulation period?

No. The Second Coming is not imminent.

Jesus gave us signs to look for that precede His return.

The Day of the LORD will not come as a thief in the night for the church who is watching for these signs.

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

 

[JLB]

I would state Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken 1260 days as I read.

Yes the New Temple is one of the specific signs Jesus gave us to look for.

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Matthew 24:15-16

 

[Alfred Persson]

There's only three and half year tribulation, no seven year tribulation. The 70 weeks were fulfilled by Jesus.

As the 70 weeks were fulfilled by Jesus, that makes Daniel 9:27 a separate week entirely, that is fulfilled in the end time. The book of Revelation confirms the end time week is 7 years:

The "Big Mouth" little horn antichrist rules for 42 months:
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5 NKJ)

That is, AFTER he kills God's two witnesses who prophesied for forty two months (1,260 days)
3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
...
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. (Rev. 11:3-7 NKJ)

42+42=84 months or 7 Years.

 

[JLB]

As the 70 weeks were fulfilled by Jesus,

The 70 weeks were not fulled by Jesus.

70 weeks are 490 years.

The 70 weeks were divided into 3 specific time periods.

7 Weeks
62 Weeks
1 Week.

 

[Fish153]

Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being GATHERED to be with him (2nd coming)
From the ends of the EARTH to the ends of the heavens.

Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God.

The beast and his false prophet are spoken of as one in Rev 11. As the false prophet acts on behalf of the currently imprisoned angel that comes up from the Abyss that overpowers and kills Gods 2 witnesses. The dragon is given the keys of release for those in the abyss in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump of God.

That beast makes war with the saints, and his reign is 42 months. If God abandoned the whole world to the lawless by harvesting the saints early who is the beast making war with? And couldn't God wipe out the whole world at that time rather than wait to the last day as the saints are no longer in the world?

Have you read the parable of the weeds? The question asked was should we pull up the weeds not harvest the wheat early. Jesus's answer was in pulling up the weeds you might uproot the wheat, so no, let them both grow up together until the harvest time which begins with the weeds.

So, if you wish to hold to a pretrib gathering of saints with the Lord. (I don't)
Then
There is no gathering before the man of lawless is revealed. He sits in the temple of God declaring himself God. His reign is 42 months as God cuts short those days of the great tribulation for the sake of the elect on earth. The beast will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on earth. So much so if God didn't cut his reign no one would survive.

Randy---

I think what you are forgetting is that the Tribulation (especially the last 3-1/2 years) is dealing with the JEWS---God's earthly people. I will state this again: there are (2) PHASES to the return of Jesus to the earth. the FIRST is when he comes FOR his saints "as a thief" (no one sees Him). When the rapture takes places this is when the Anti-Christ comes upon the scene (in fact the Rapture may be the very reason he comes into view). As the Tribulation takes place, the Judgment Seat of Christ also takes place. Those who are rewarded and judged worthy will RETURN with Jesus during the SECOND PHASE of His return when He comes WITH HIS SAINTS (remember--when He came at first He had NO SAINTS with Him--he came as a "thief". But now He returns in the second Phase OPENLY (EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM)---and he returns WITH His saints. Enoch spoke of this (read Jude) when he said that the Lord "comes with ten thousands of his saints".

Yes---at the current time the Lord is allowing the weeds to grow with the wheat. There are many false Christians in our churches. If we didn't know Scripture we wouldn't be able to tell them apart---and in many cases we still can't. False Brethren can be around us even now. Those are the "tares" Jesus spoke of. BUT---when the Rapture occurs the wheat will be separated from the tares. The tares will be left behind.

Again---there is a huge difference between the "Rapture" that has no time frame and is hidden---it can come at ANY TIME, and the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST TO EARTH when he vanquishes his enemies IN THE OPEN. If you study the Word you will see the TWO PHASES and it makes everything fall into place.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

42+42=84 months or 7 Years.

This is bogus. All five mentions of 3.5 years/42 months/1260 days are referring to the same period, not two separate ones.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So, if you wish to hold to a pretrib gathering of saints with the Lord. (I don't)
Then
There is no gathering before the man of lawless is revealed. He sits in the temple of God declaring himself God. His reign is 42 months as God cuts short those days of the great tribulation for the sake of the elect on earth. The beast will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on earth. So much so if God didn't cut his reign no one would survive.

Pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib are all referring to the timing of the rapture, the problem is that the term "rapture" isn't clearly defined. Most dispensationalists will only lecture you on the validity of this doctrine, that "rapture" does exist in the bible, but what exactly does it mean? They will tell you, "being caught up", "removal of the global church". But How? In what way? Being lifted high up into the sky by an anti-gravity force? Or suddenly disappear like "puff" in a flash? That's poor science fiction, not bibilical teaching.

What the bible does teach, though, is resurrection of the body. The church as the "restrainer" (2 Thess. 2:6-7) will be removed in order for the Antichrist to be revealed, not through any supernatural gimmick, but in death, like all past generations. When the Lord returns, we'll rise up, THEN we may be united with him forever, that's what 1 Thess. 1:16-17 really teaches. "Those who are still alive" are the Jews, they are the "tribes of the earth" who will mourn and witness the Lord descending on the clouds with power and glory, Matt. 24:30.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The 70 weeks were not fulled by Jesus.

70 weeks are 490 years.

The 70 weeks were divided into 3 specific time periods.

7 Weeks
62 Weeks
1 Week.

The 70 weeks were continuous with no hiatus.

 

[JLB]

The 70 weeks were continuous with no hiatus.

Daniel 9:25-27
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. V. 25

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
v. 26

Notice in verse 26 we have two distinct events that we can assign time markers to.

Messiah cut off - 33 AD
City and sanctuary destroyed 70 AD

Yet the 70th week hasn’t yet begun.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” V.27

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Notice in verse 26 we have two distinct events that we can assign time markers to.

Messiah cut off - 33 AD
City and sanctuary destroyed 70 AD

The destruction of the temple was NOT specifically confined within the 70 weeks. All the destruction and desolation are determiend in the aftermath of the messiah's sacrifice. 9:26 and 9:27 are talking about the same final week of years, in which the Messiah will end the animal sacrificial system by offering himself as the ultimate sacrifice, after that Israel was given 40 years for repentence, then the sacking of Jerusalem, destruction of the temple, and the temple hill remains "desolate" with the abomination of the mosque, and it will stay that way till the end of time.

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near ... and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Lk. 21:20-24)

 

[JLB]

The destruction of the temple was NOT specifically confined within the 70 weeks. All the destruction and desolation are determiend in the aftermath of the messiah's sacrifice. 9:26 and 9:27 are talking about the same final week of years, in which the Messiah will end the animal sacrificial system by offering himself as the ultimate sacrifice, after that Israel was given 40 years for repentence, then the sacking of Jerusalem, destruction of the temple, and the temple hill remains "desolate" with the abomination of the mosque, and it will stay that way till the end of time.

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near ... and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Lk. 21:20-24)

Here are the verses.

As we see, the first 69 weeks ended with the term “Messiah the Prince”

After this comes verse 26 and the two distinct events:

Messiah cut off
City and temple destroyed.

We are at 70 AD and the final week hasn’t begun yet. The final week doesn’t begin until the next verse.


Daniel 9:25-27
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. V. 25

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
v. 26

Notice in verse 26 we have two distinct events that we can assign time markers to.

Messiah cut off - 33 AD
City and sanctuary destroyed 70 AD

Yet the 70th week hasn’t yet begun.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” V.27

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Here are the verses.

As we see, the first 69 weeks ended with the term “Messiah the Prince”

After this comes verse 26 and the two distinct events:

Messiah cut off
City and temple destroyed.

We are at 70 AD and the final week hasn’t begun yet. The final week doesn’t begin until the next verse.

How could the 70th week hasn't begun when it was determined that the Messiah be cut off AFTER the 69th week? The only event with a time marker is the sacrifice of the Messiah, destruction of the temple is determined to happen afterwards.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

In seven weeks (of years), exiled Israelites returned to Judea; after that, in sixty-two weeks (of years), the city and the temple was rebuilt. These were continuous.

City and sanctuary destroyed 70 AD

This was set in the afterward period, aka "after the sixty-two weeks", which is NOT limited in the 70th week. The "abomination" in "on the wing of abominations" is referring to continuous animal sacrifice in the temple after the Messiah had ended the sacrificial system by offering himself as the ultimate sacrifice. This has nothing to do with a possible third temple, that's total conspiracy. No third temple will be built on the temple mount, if one is built elsewhere, it will be irrelevant.

 

[Randy]

Pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib are all referring to the timing of the rapture, the problem is that the term "rapture" isn't clearly defined. Most dispensationalists will only lecture you on the validity of this doctrine, that "rapture" does exist in the bible, but what exactly does it mean? They will tell you, "being caught up", "removal of the global church". But How? In what way? Being lifted high up into the sky by an anti-gravity force? Or suddenly disappear like "puff" in a flash? That's poor science fiction, not bibilical teaching.

What the bible does teach, though, is resurrection of the body. The church as the "restrainer" (2 Thess. 2:6-7) will be removed in order for the Antichrist to be revealed, not through any supernatural gimmick, but in death, like all past generations. When the Lord returns, we'll rise up, THEN we may be united with him forever, that's what 1 Thess. 1:16-17 really teaches. "Those who are still alive" are the Jews, they are the "tribes of the earth" who will mourn and witness the Lord descending on the clouds with power and glory, Matt. 24:30.

Jesus's return ends all tribulation as it's He and His armies that capture the beast and false prophet. The angel of the abyss, the power that will be behind the false prophet-man of lawlessness, is currently imprisoned and Satan isn't given the keys by God to open the abyss until the days of the sounding of the 5th trump of God. From the 5th to the 7th trump is the reign of the beast and the bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beast's kingdom into darkness.

The church is shown in the world during those days of unequaled distress. The beast makes war with the saints that is those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey Gods commands.

“If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.” This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

If anyone escapes those evil days it will be like King Josiah who was killed in battle and didn't see the calamity, (evil), God was going to bring on Isreal because of their disobedience. In other words, they're not in the world any longer because of the death of the body not any rapture,

Those left alive on the last day will be caught up ALIVE and clothed with immortality as flesh and blood cannot inherit the everlasting kingdom that can never be destroyed that God promises to those who love and obey Him.
A gathering from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens on that last day NOT before that day for any.

 

[Randy]

Randy---

I think what you are forgetting is that the Tribulation (especially the last 3-1/2 years) is dealing with the JEWS---God's earthly people. I will state this again: there are (2) PHASES to the return of Jesus to the earth. the FIRST is when he comes FOR his saints "as a thief" (no one sees Him). When the rapture takes places this is when the Anti-Christ comes upon the scene (in fact the Rapture may be the very reason he comes into view). As the Tribulation takes place, the Judgment Seat of Christ also takes place. Those who are rewarded and judged worthy will RETURN with Jesus during the SECOND PHASE of His return when He comes WITH HIS SAINTS (remember--when He came at first He had NO SAINTS with Him--he came as a "thief". But now He returns in the second Phase OPENLY (EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM)---and he returns WITH His saints. Enoch spoke of this (read Jude) when he said that the Lord "comes with ten thousands of his saints".

Yes---at the current time the Lord is allowing the weeds to grow with the wheat. There are many false Christians in our churches. If we didn't know Scripture we wouldn't be able to tell them apart---and in many cases we still can't. False Brethren can be around us even now. Those are the "tares" Jesus spoke of. BUT---when the Rapture occurs the wheat will be separated from the tares. The tares will be left behind.

Again---there is a huge difference between the "Rapture" that has no time frame and is hidden---it can come at ANY TIME, and the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST TO EARTH when he vanquishes his enemies IN THE OPEN. If you study the Word you will see the TWO PHASES and it makes everything fall into place.

The tribulation comes upon the whole world. The whole world looks on in rev 11 and parties at the death of Gods two witness. The saints in Rev are defined as those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey Gods commands. (The church or body of Christ) The beast makes war with the saints. Even to the last day those left alive are caught up at the coming of the Lord. The wheat and the weeds will grow up together until the harvest day. The parable of the weeds was clear to me.

 

[Randy]

Pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib are all referring to the timing of the rapture, the problem is that the term "rapture" isn't clearly defined. Most dispensationalists will only lecture you on the validity of this doctrine, that "rapture" does exist in the bible, but what exactly does it mean? They will tell you, "being caught up", "removal of the global church". But How? In what way? Being lifted high up into the sky by an anti-gravity force? Or suddenly disappear like "puff" in a flash? That's poor science fiction, not bibilical teaching.

What the bible does teach, though, is resurrection of the body. The church as the "restrainer" (2 Thess. 2:6-7) will be removed in order for the Antichrist to be revealed, not through any supernatural gimmick, but in death, like all past generations. When the Lord returns, we'll rise up, THEN we may be united with him forever, that's what 1 Thess. 1:16-17 really teaches. "Those who are still alive" are the Jews, they are the "tribes of the earth" who will mourn and witness the Lord descending on the clouds with power and glory, Matt. 24:30.

I don't hold to anyone alive being caught up before the last day. Jesus ends all tribulation at His 2nd coming.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don't hold to anyone alive being caught up before the last day. Jesus ends all tribulation at His 2nd coming.

Neither do I. "Caught up" in the original language was describing a captivated mental state, you focus on something with your undivided attention. Remember when Jesus ascended into heaven, the disciples were gazing into heaven as He rose? The remnants will gaze at heaven in the same way when Jesus returns, as prophesied.

 

[Randy]

Neither do I. "Caught up" in the original language was describing a captivated mental state, you focus on something with your undivided attention. Remember when Jesus ascended into heaven, the disciples were gazing into heaven as He rose? The remnants will gaze at heaven in the same way when Jesus returns, as prophesied.

Paul is not speaking of a mental state.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Paul is not speaking of a mental state.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Yes he is. We don't rise up to meet the Lord, he comes DOWN to meet us.

 

[JLB]

Yes he is. We don't rise up to meet the Lord, he came DOWN to meet us.

It’s both.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17