Is Second Coming IMMINENT?

[MisterE]

Where, specifically, @MisterE, the word "rapture" appear in the New Testament?

Where, specifically, @MisterE, the word "rapture" appear in the New Testament?

1 Thes 4 .17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα
I don't like to quote from an English or Spanish Translation, or any Translation. We have the words of the Apostles, we should abide by those.
See also: 2 Cor 12.2 οἶδα ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ πρὸ ἐτῶν δεκατεσσάρων εἴτε ἐν σώματι οὐκ οἶδα, εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα, ὁ θεὸς οἶδεν ἁρπαγέντα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἕως τρίτου οὐρανο
So, 1 Thes 4.17 and 2 Cor 12.2 use the word rapture. Here are a couple of uses of the Greek root: GJohn 10.28, Rev 12.5.
Finally, here is the word rapture in the Spanish Bible: Luego los que estemos vivos, los que hayamos quedado, seremos arrebatados junto con ellos en las nubes para encontrarnos con el Señor en el aire. Y así estaremos con el Señor para siempre.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You say that because Jesus didn't read further, it wasn't fulfilled. How can you know that link?

What "link"? Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61, and he stopped at "acceptable year", that's a fact, I didn't read anything into it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

See my article on this, this is a false claim. The word rapture appears several times in the NT, and it appears in the context of the Tribulation.

The problem is not whether the word "rapture" exists in the text or not, but what you make of it. Most dispensationalists describe rapture as a "secret, unexpected, sudden disappearance" of God's remnant church, the body of all truly saved people all over the world with no prior warnings, they all go to heaven leaving everyone else behind - including the "tribulation saints". That much is totally fabricated. If you let the bible interpret itself, 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is a parallel message with 1 Cor. 15:51-53 about RESURRECTION of the body.

 

[hawkman]

Posts deleted and thread bans enforced .

6. Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong,” or any other similar phrase. This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.

Thread 'Forum Policies and Rules'

Apr 10, 2018

Bible Version References
All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.
Info on copyrights can be found at BibleGateway - Available Versions
This is not just a request, it's the law.

Christian Apologetics is, by definition, a rational defense of the Christian faith. The word "apologetics" comes from the Greek word apologia, which means to give a defense or a reason. A significant passage where apologia is used1 Peter 3:15-16:

1Peter 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always...

• ChristianForums.net
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Theology

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

1 Thes 4 .17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα
I don't like to quote from an English or Spanish Translation, or any Translation. We have the words of the Apostles, we should abide by those.
See also: 2 Cor 12.2 οἶδα ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ πρὸ ἐτῶν δεκατεσσάρων εἴτε ἐν σώματι οὐκ οἶδα, εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα, ὁ θεὸς οἶδεν ἁρπαγέντα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἕως τρίτου οὐρανο
So, 1 Thes 4.17 and 2 Cor 12.2 use the word rapture. Here are a couple of uses of the Greek root: GJohn 10.28, Rev 12.5.
Finally, here is the word rapture in the Spanish Bible: Luego los que estemos vivos, los que hayamos quedado, seremos arrebatados junto con ellos en las nubes para encontrarnos con el Señor en el aire. Y así estaremos con el Señor para siempre.

As far as translations go, I prefer the English Standard Verson, which seems to be the most accurate. I used to like the original NIV, but since that first edition, it has become affected by culture, especially with pronouns most recently.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I think a lot of people confuse the second coming with the rapture, they say things like "Jesus coming to collect His Church" a reference to the rapture vs Jesus's 2nd return to defeat Satan at the end of the tribulation.
My somewhat uneducated view is that the rapture is imminent. The return of Christ will be imminent about 7 years after that.

I believe that according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, both of them will happen at the same time, but we'll find out whose interpretation is correct when it happens, won't we?

 

[MisterE]

The return of Christ will be imminent about 7 years after that.

The Second coming will never be imminent. The whole world is at war. The Antichrist has to manifest himself first, once he signs the covenant with the Jews, you can start your clock then, go 7 years, and Christ returns. The battle of Armageddon will be in progress. There is many fulfillment prophecies that will have to take place before the Second Coming. Only the Rapture is imminent, there are no preceding signs that must take place.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Second coming will never be imminent. The whole world is at war. The Antichrist has to manifest himself first, once he signs the covenant with the Jews, you can start your clock then, go 7 years, and Christ returns. The battle of Armageddon will be in progress. There is many fulfillment prophecies that will have to take place before the Second Coming. Only the Rapture is imminent, there are no preceding signs that must take place.

Where in scripture exactly does it say anything about 7 years after a peace treaty is signed or the Rapture of the Church happening before what so many like to call the 7 year Great Tribulation?

 

[MisterE]

Where in scripture exactly does it say anything about 7 years after a peace treaty is signed or the Rapture of the Church happening before what so many like to call the 7 year Great Tribulation?

Dan 9.24-27

The Great Tribulation that Christ speaks of is only the last half of the Tribulation or 3 1/2 years. The abomination that causes desolation is at the mid point of the week, and the Great Tribulation follows that. For those who consult the Bible during the Tribulation will be able to calculate the time of Christ's Second Coming.

I subscribe to the literal interpretation method, and I am a Dispensationalist.

 

[onlysaved]

I believe that according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, both of them will happen at the same time, but we'll find out whose interpretation is correct when it happens, won't we?

To be perfectly honest I have a hard enough time living the way I am supposed to and fail so often that the timetable of Christ's return is of very little importance to me. I just want to honor God with my life and trust Him with the rest. I know that we all have the same problems so I cannot imagine anyone thinking they have such a clean life that anything other than trying to love God even matters..

Are some people so Godly already that they really can spend so much time thinking about it?
Sorry but dealing with sin and trying to honor God takes 100% of my time , thought and effort, I have 0 time for academics.
The longer I am here on earth all I uncover is how wretched I am and how deep the love of God must be.

I'm with Paul teach Christ and Him crucified. That's what people need.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Where in scripture exactly does it say anything about 7 years after a peace treaty is signed or the Rapture of the Church happening before what so many like to call the 7 year Great Tribulation?

To be perfectly honest I have a hard enough time living the way I am supposed to and fail so often that the timetable of Christ's return is of very little importance to me. I just want to honor God with my life and trust Him with the rest. I know that we all have the same problems so I cannot imagine anyone thinking they have such a clean life that anything other than trying to love God even matters..

Are some people so Godly already that they really can spend so much time thinking about it?
Sorry but dealing with sin and trying to honor God takes 100% of my time , thought and effort, I have 0 time for academics.
The longer I am here on earth all I uncover is how wretched I am and how deep the love of God must be.

I'm with Paul teach Christ and Him crucified. That's what people need.

I'm with you, onlysaved, except that the knowledge that Christ is coming back gives me a lot of hope for the future. However, I tend to be a "PAN-millennialist"; that is, it'll all PAN out.

 

[MisterE]

I'm with you, @onlysaved, except that the knowledge that Christ is coming back gives me a lot of hope for the future. However, I tend to be a "PAN-millennialist"; that is, it'll all PAN out.

May I ask what your method of interpretation is?

 

[for_his_glory]

Dan 9.24-27

The Great Tribulation that Christ speaks of is only the last half of the Tribulation or 3 1/2 years. The abomination that causes desolation is at the mid point of the week, and the Great Tribulation follows that. For those who consult the Bible during the Tribulation will be able to calculate the time of Christ's Second Coming.

I subscribe to the literal interpretation method, and I am a Dispensationalist.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent after their 70 year captivity in Babylon when the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping as they continue to follow Judaism and receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The people were allowed back in the land and Israel was again formed; however, the people did receive punishment as the kingdom was taken away. Additionally, for approximately 2500 years, from 586 BC until 1948, the nation was under the authority of a foreign power. Israel never again had a king from the messianic line of David to sit and rule.

Israel was given 490 years to deal with the sin of the nation and prepare for the coming of King Messiah. The prophecy would start with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Messiah, the prince, would come exactly 483 years (69 weeks) after the command was given. Then the Messiah would be cut off or killed for others. After the 69 weeks, Messiah would be killed, and Jerusalem and the temple would once again be destroyed and made desolate. There would be wars and desolation of Jerusalem for an unspecified period of time and then the end would come. This prophecy allows for the exact time for the first coming of Messiah to be determined.

Daniel separated the 70th week, the last seven years, from the previous 69 weeks. The 70th week was specially separated from all the other years. This prophecy gives conclusive proof that only Jesus of Nazareth can be Israel ’s King Messiah, the Savior of mankind.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

May I ask what your method of interpretation is?

It's the method of cooking. It's probably going to be out of the frying PAN into the fire for unbelievers.

 

[MisterE]

It's the method of cooking. It's probably going to be out of the frying PAN into the fire for unbelievers.

I had a feeling you were clueless as to what a method of interpretation is. Are you hoping your salvation pans out?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Do you believe Christ could return at any moment or only after a tribulation period?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 "day of Christ" and Revelation 14:9-16 put the rapture/gathering after the Antichrist Beast is revealed.

Christ's coming is unexpected because people ignore these scriptures, or don't believe them.

2 Thess. 2:3 the "great apostasy" comes first, the "falling away of the church". That means many former believers "willfully forget" God is creator, and begin mocking "the promise of His coming" (2 Peter 3:4ff).

So people are caught "unwatching" because of their disbelief. Christ told us to "keep on watch" which wouldn't make sense if there is nothing to watch and see occur that indicates when "He is near." The thief's arrival doesn't surprise the householder who watched and saw the signs he would come to his house.

 

[MisterE]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 "day of Christ" and Revelation 14:9-16 put the rapture/gathering after the Antichrist Beast is revealed.

Christ's coming is unexpected because people ignore these scriptures, or don't believe them.

2 Thess. 2:3 the "great apostasy" comes first, the "falling away of the church". That means many former believers "willfully forget" God is creator, and begin mocking "the promise of His coming" (2 Peter 3:4ff).

Revelation 14 has nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church, the Church is making herself ready in heaven to return with Christ and rule on earth.

The great apostasy/departure refers to the Rapture of the Church. Note that an apostasy is something that takes place over time, and does not have a beginning or end. The Rapture is a sudden departure of the Church into heaven. The Rapture is an event. The apostasia. as you are using it, takes place over time. So, if the Church is advised to look for his coming, then we know that is not the second coming.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Revelation 14 has nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church, the Church is making herself ready in heaven to return with Christ and rule on earth.

The great apostasy/departure refers to the Rapture of the Church. Note that an apostasy is something that takes place over time, and does not have a beginning or end. The Rapture is a sudden departure of the Church into heaven. The Rapture is an event. The apostasia. as you are using it, takes place over time. So, if the Church is advised to look for his coming, then we know that is not the second coming.

I disagree. The context shows some were claiming Christ already came, and left. That the resurrection/rapture/gathering had already occurred, and everyone still on earth was "left behind":

who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:18 NKJ)

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. (2 Thess. 2:1-2 NKJ)

Confirming this, the phrases "day of Christ", "day of the Lord", "day of Jesus", "day of the lord Jesus" etc. all refer to the same period of time because "Jesus is Lord." Therefore, inferior texts reading "day of the Lord" (which gained favor among the rationalists in the 1800s), does not contradict the Majority Text.

The Majority Text: Divine Preservation and Christian Reason | End Time News

Many believers have been deceived; they have been made to question if Christ's words are accurate: "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18 NKJ) Literal Jots and titles have no meaning

endtimenews.net

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:8 NKJ)

Paul plainly says the Antichrist Man of Sin, Son of Perdition will be revealed, BEFORE the "Day of Christ/Lord"

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:1-4 NKJ)

The Thessalonians were being attacked by satanic lies taught by the "mystery of lawlessness", the evil spirits who spreak through false prophets, false teachers, and spurious letters. The Day of Christ had not come, their faith should not be subverted as Hymenaeus and Philetus caused to happen elsewhere:

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17-18 NKJ)

Therefore, the plain (obvious) meaning of Revelation 14 is that the saints (church) will be persecuted for not accepting the mark, but they are consoled by the promise those who die faithful martyrs are blessed, and that the rapture will come soon:

The Antichrist demands everyone accept the Mark; Those who do are warned they will reap eternal torment:

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Compare:

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (Rev. 13:5-7 NKJ)

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.
26 `But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. (Dan. 7:25-26 NKJ)

Those who die faithful are blessed:

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write:`Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Unlike unbelievers, believers are not of the sort who will be caught unaware:

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:9-16 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Revelation 14 has nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church, the Church is making herself ready in heaven to return with Christ and rule on earth.

The great apostasy/departure refers to the Rapture of the Church. Note that an apostasy is something that takes place over time, and does not have a beginning or end. The Rapture is a sudden departure of the Church into heaven. The Rapture is an event. The apostasia. as you are using it, takes place over time. So, if the Church is advised to look for his coming, then we know that is not the second coming.

Ran out of time, wanted to end with this:

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. (1 Thess. 5:1-6 NKJ)

The mockers who lost their belief in Christ's second coming, and all unbelievers will be surprised by the coming of Christ. It will catch them not watching.

Believers watch. We know earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars (involving Israel), pestilence, lawlessness, etc., are signs of the end that mean Christ is near. The idea Christ would appear before these things is unscriptural.

43 "But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
44 "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Matt. 24:43-44 NKJ)

All living in high crime neighborhoods, hearing their neighbors were burglarized, take precautions, security measures, so they are NOT surprised by the thief in the night. Only those who ignore the signs are surprised when their house is broken into.