Is Second Coming IMMINENT?

[Carry_Your_Name]

It’s both.

Nope. Do you believe the bible has a consistent narrative? And in this narrative, Jesus only returns ONCE? If so, then 1 Thess. 4:17 must be consistent with Matt. 24:30 and Acts 1:11. "Air" means this world, not high up in the sky.

 

[Fish153]

This is bogus. All five mentions of 3.5 years/42 months/1260 days are referring to the same period, not two separate ones.

No, it isn't bogus. You need to go back and read. Jesus calls his second coming in one place "like a thief". When a thief breaks in no one knows. The thief is PURPOSEFULLY coming in SECRETLY. When Jesus comes back FOR HIS SAINTS it will be AS A THIEF. The Rapture will occur. The whole world will wonder what happened?? I believe the RAPTURE will be the very reason that the Anti-Christ will come out of hiding and appear to the world. He will have an EXPLANATION that everyone will "buy into". He will deceive the world.

When Jesus returns WITH HIS SAINTS (the second phase of his coming) then EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. He will not come "as a thief" but as a CONQUERING HERO. If you look at ENOCH he is a TYPE of these TWO PHASES. Enoch was "taken secretly" by God. He was raptured to Heaven. "God took him" it says. This is a "type" of the first phase of Jesus' coming (in secret---as a thief).

But read Jude: Enoch prophesies of the SECOND PHASE of Jesus' coming: "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 15,16)

Please note: Enoch was taken secretly from the earth-----but he prophesies that Jesus will return (Enoch himself with be WITH the Lord when He returns) and EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM.

The two phases of His second coming is not BOGUS at all. It is the teaching of Scripture and it is very clear.

 

[JLB]

Nope. Do you believe the bible has a consistent narrative? And in this narrative, Jesus only returns ONCE? If so, then 1 Thess. 4:17 must be consistent with Matt. 24:30 and Acts 1:11.

Yes 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the same as Matthew 24:30 and Acts 1:11

When Jesus comes back FOR HIS SAINTS it will be AS A THIEF.

No sir. Not true.

His coming will not be as a thief for His saints.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4

 

[MisterE]

I don't hold to anyone alive being caught up before the last day. Jesus ends all tribulation at His 2nd coming.

The problem is the 2nd coming was prophesied in the OT. Paul tells of the coming of Christ (at a rapture) is a mystery, i.e., a doctrine not mentioned in the OT. The 2nd coming is not a mystery but was revealed in OT.

Can you reconcile this chart:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[JLB]

The problem is the 2nd coming was prophesied in the OT. Paul tells of the coming of Christ (at a rapture) is a mystery, i.e., a doctrine not mentioned in the OT. The 2nd coming is not a mystery but was revealed in OT.

Can you reconcile this chart:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Yes I can reconcile.


The resurrection and rapture are at the coming of the Lord.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

[Alfred Persson]

The 70 weeks were not fulled by Jesus.

70 weeks are 490 years.

The 70 weeks were divided into 3 specific time periods.

7 Weeks
62 Weeks
1 Week.

Incorrect. Jesus was crucified AFTER the 69th week:
"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (Dan. 9:26 NKJ)
The New Covenant fulfilled all of Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. (Dan. 9:24 NKJ)

The argument sin didn't end, is bogus. It did for all who believe in Christ, everlasting righteousness now exists.

Those who object to this scriptural interpretation, claiming sin proves the 70th week isn't over, fail to realize the rebellion of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:7-8 proves their premise literal sins ends before the millennial kingdom of Christ, is incorrect....unsustainable.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is bogus. All five mentions of 3.5 years/42 months/1260 days are referring to the same period, not two separate ones.

Then explain how God's two witnesses prophesy for 42 months, and then are slain by the Antichrist Beast, who then rules another 42 months.

Clearly, two separate periods.

 

[Randy]

Yes he is. We don't rise up to meet the Lord, he comes DOWN to meet us.

In the clouds is not on the ground, to Meet Him in the air is not on the ground. Not caught up to heaven where God dwells but, in the air, clouds is expressly stated. It also follows the dead in Christ rising first. Those alive on earth at the resurrection are still in mortal flesh and also need to be clothed with immortality. They are caught up meet the Lord in the air and are changed in a instant.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The Son of Man comes with/on the clouds of heaven.

 

[Randy]

The problem is the 2nd coming was prophesied in the OT. Paul tells of the coming of Christ (at a rapture) is a mystery, i.e., a doctrine not mentioned in the OT. The 2nd coming is not a mystery but was revealed in OT.

Can you reconcile this chart:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

A coming of the Lord.
Rev 16:15

The problem is the 2nd coming was prophesied in the OT. Paul tells of the coming of Christ (at a rapture) is a mystery, i.e., a doctrine not mentioned in the OT. The 2nd coming is not a mystery but was revealed in OT.

Can you reconcile this chart:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

I believe in a 2nd coming but no more. I don't believe anyone alive in Christ is caught up before the last day. John would be an exception for the witness He gave by Gods decree. Unlike John those alive on earth on the last day are not caught up to heaven but in the air to meet the Lord.
Rev 16:15 -A coming of the Lord.

 

[JLB]

Incorrect. Jesus was crucified AFTER the 69th week:

Where did I say otherwise?

Please read what I wrote.

• And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off

The Messiah cut off and the city and temple destroyed were mentioned in verse 26.

Notice in verse 26 we have two distinct events that we can assign time markers to.

Messiah cut off - 33 AD
City and sanctuary destroyed 70 AD

Yet the 70th week hasn’t yet begun.


Daniel 9:25-27
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. V. 25

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
v. 26

Notice in verse 26 we have two distinct events that we can assign time markers to.

Messiah cut off - 33 AD
City and sanctuary destroyed 70 AD

Yet the 70th week hasn’t yet begun.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” V.27

 

[MisterE]

A coming of the Lord.
Rev 16:15

I believe in a 2nd coming but no more. I don't believe anyone alive in Christ is caught up before the last day. John would be an exception for the witness He gave by Gods decree. Unlike John those alive on earth on the last day are not caught up to heaven but in the air to meet the Lord.
Rev 16:15 -A coming of the Lord.

I noticed you conveniently didn't do anything with my chart. So far, no post-tribber has provided an answer to this chart. Are there any post-tribbers who would like to explain why this chart can not be answered by post-trib.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The two phases of His second coming is not BOGUS at all. It is the teaching of Scripture and it is very clear.

Not two phases, but two perspectives. "A thief in the night" is for the church, a conquering king is for the rest of the world. Within the church, the faithful servants with discernment will be prepared for His coming, the unfaithful servants will be caught by surprise. There is no secret vanishing act or additional returns.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the same as Matthew 24:30 and Acts 1:11

Then Jesus will come down to meet us - right here on earth. "Air" is not high up in the sky. Satan is called the "prince of the air", that means this world.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Then explain how God's two witnesses prophesy for 42 months, and then are slain by the Antichrist Beast, who then rules another 42 months.

Clearly, two separate periods.

No, clearly those are the SAME 42 months. Explain to me how in the seventh trumpet is Christ's kingdom established. The nations are not about to become the kingdoms of our Lord, but HAVE BECOME. If there were another 42 months ahead, shouldn't they become the kingdoms of the Beast? The ten kings give their power and authority to the Beast, 17:13, right?

“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

In the clouds is not on the ground, to Meet Him in the air is not on the ground. Not caught up to heaven where God dwells but, in the air, clouds is expressly stated. It also follows the dead in Christ rising first. Those alive on earth at the resurrection are still in mortal flesh and also need to be clothed with immortality. They are caught up meet the Lord in the air and are changed in a instant.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The Son of Man comes with/on the clouds of heaven.

That is Left Behind movie script, not biblical prophesy, "air" is not high up in the sky. Satan is called the "prince of the air" (Eph. 2:2), that means this world.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The problem is the 2nd coming was prophesied in the OT. Paul tells of the coming of Christ (at a rapture) is a mystery, i.e., a doctrine not mentioned in the OT. The 2nd coming is not a mystery but was revealed in OT.

Can you reconcile this chart:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

I noticed you conveniently didn't do anything with my chart. So far, no post-tribber has provided an answer to this chart. Are there any post-tribbers who would like to explain why this chart can not be answered by post-trib.

Your chart and your pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib labels are all meaningless unless the term "rapture" can be unambiguously defined. I think we can agree that it refers to a future removal of the church from the earth, as the "restrainer" must be removed in order for the Antichrist to be revealed (2 Thess. 2:7), the difference is HOW. You and most dispensationalists believe it's through some kind of vanishing act, an alien style abduction; I on the other hand believe it's through natural (or unnatrual) death, like all past generations, and at his second coming, the church will rise from the dead.

 

[Randy]

That is Left Behind movie script, not biblical prophesy, "air" is not high up in the sky. Satan is called the "prince of the air" (Eph. 2:2), that means this world.

In the clouds is caught up. It's just not to heaven but to meet the Lord, the Son of Man who returns on/with the clouds of heaven. I quoted the NT. No one alive is caught up to heaven at all let alone before that last day. Those left alive on the last day are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

It's clear to me, the church is still on the earth on this last day and those alive on that day are caught up so as to be clothed with new imperishable bodies, (immortality), as flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And; he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[Randy]

I noticed you conveniently didn't do anything with my chart. So far, no post-tribber has provided an answer to this chart. Are there any post-tribbers who would like to explain why this chart can not be answered by post-trib.

I use the NT. Your chart means nothing to me.
A coming of the Lord.
Rev 16:15
The dead are raised on the last day.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

In the clouds is caught up. It's just not to heaven but to meet the Lord, the Son of Man who returns on/with the clouds of heaven. I quoted the NT. No one alive is caught up to heaven at all let alone before that last day. Those left alive on the last day are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

As I said, "air" is defined in Eph. 2:2, not by you or any dictionary. When the Lord returns, He defeats Satan and reclaims the world that is rightly his, and we meet the Lord in this world. I wasn't suggesting that we meet the Lord in heaven, I was rebuking the idea of meeting the Lord in the sky, the airspace.

 

[Randy]

As I said, "air" is defined in Eph. 2:2, not by you or any dictionary. When the Lord returns, He defeats Satan and reclaims the world that is rightly his, and we meet the Lord in this world. I wasn't suggesting that we meet the Lord in heaven, I was rebuking the idea of meeting the Lord in the sky, the airspace.

Clouds are in the sky as in caught up.