The Oneness of God.......

[reddogs]

We had a pastor that told us he was going to preach on the 'Trinity', and my ears perked up. So I quizzed him to see what he would say, but he deferred with a smile and told me to check out the sermon and see. So I got a good seat and listened.

Well, he didnt say it directly but the message he gave was more than I had anticipated. He went over the usual text and the basic understanding of them, but then he went into the how God in his ordered way was one, yet distinct in the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Then he went deeper into the oneness of God and gave the following text.....

Genesis 2:20-24
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Can this be a peek at the mystery on how God can be one, and yet seperate.....one "essence", one "substance", yet distinct...not born or created but eternally existing from the same 'oneness'?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings reddogs,

Can this be a peek at the mystery on how God can be one, and yet seperate.....one "essence", one "substance", yet distinct...not born or created but eternally existing from the same 'oneness'?

No. God is one, not three.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

Greetings reddogs,

No. God is one, not three.

Kind regards
Trevor

Who are these?

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

Who are these?
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26

This is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man.

Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim),and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

This is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man.

Bro,

You can’t be serious. You think angels created the heavens and the earth?

You believe angels created man in their image?

Why would God, need angels to help Him create all things?

• For by Him all things were created…

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
Colossians 1:15-16

Him = Jesus Christ the firstborn over creation.

• But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
• And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


The Son created the heavens and earth according to God’s will.

The Son is called God.

The Son is referred to as YHWH.


Please stop denying what the scriptures so plainly and clearly teach.

 

[Free]

Greetings again JLB,

This is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man.

Nowhere is it ever stated in the Bible that either the angels participated in the creation of humans or that humans are created in the image of angels. We even have the act of human creation in the very verse that follows Gen. 1:26:

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

We are only created in the image of God and only by God himself. To say that "God the Father [invited] the Angels to participate in the creation of man," is to completely ignore the context. The only explanation is that God is talking to himself in verse 26; a multiplicity within himself having a conversation about creating humans in his image, which is then performed in verse 27.

Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim),and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

This has absolutely no bearing on Gen. 1:26-27.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Please stop denying what the scriptures so plainly and clearly teach.

Based and great response.

What he said here shows that disbelieving the Trinity Truth leads one down a dark road. A slippery slope into more and more errors.
Don't be surprised when a unitarian makes a false claim.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Greetings again JLB,

This is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man.

Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim),and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Kind regards
Trevor

Can you show me where it says, "ANGELS WERE CREATING MAN DIRECTLY"??
nowhere is "angels creating man" implied or stated. pulled that 1 out of 'thin air'

"Lower" more likely means 'authority'. Or that man is in the physical realm while Angels are in the Supernatural. But not "creation".

Unitarianism will make you believe false things. I suggest jettisoning untatiransm soon as you can.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB, and Greetings Free and KV-44-v1,

You believe angels created man in their image?
Why would God, need angels to help Him create all things?

God delights to share his plan, purpose and work with others.

This (Psalm 8:4-6) has absolutely no bearing on Gen. 1:26-27.

Don't be surprised when a unitarian makes a false claim.

nowhere is "angels creating man" implied or stated. pulled that 1 out of 'thin air'
"Lower" more likely means 'authority'. Or that man is in the physical realm while Angels are in the Supernatural. But not "creation".
Unitarianism will make you believe false things. I suggest jettisoning untatiransm soon as you can.

None of you seem to understand or accept the clear and simple teaching of Psalm 8:4-6. I suggest that KV-44-v1 's attempt is very poor and this matches his denunciation of Biblical Unitarianism which is meant to boost his confidence with his poor answer..

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

God delights to share his plan, purpose and work with others.

We see from scripture that the Spirit and the Son were involved with God the Father in the work of creation.

Is this the “others” you are referring to?


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Genesis 1:1-2


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3

• and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Please use scripture in your answers.



JLB

 

[Free]

None of you seem to understand or accept the clear and simple teaching of Psalm 8:4-6.

And you’re ignoring the clear context of Gen. 1:26, namely, verse 27. You’re also trying to make Ps. 8:4-6 say something it doesn’t. Prooftexting is not helping your position.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

And you’re ignoring the clear context of Gen. 1:26, namely, verse 27.

No, I am not ignoring Genesis 1:27. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator. Same principle as veni, vici, vidi.

You’re also trying to make Ps. 8:4-6 say something it doesn’t.

Psalm 8:4-6 does say that Yahweh created man a little lower than the Angels, alluding to and commenting on Genesis 1:26-27. David uses the framework and language of the Genesis Creation to speak about the New Creation centred in Jesus, the Son of Man. Jesus also was made a little lower than the Angels, in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[KV-44-v1]

None of you seem to understand or accept the clear and simple teaching of Psalm 8:4-6. I suggest that @KV-44-v1 's attempt is very poor and this matches his denunciation of Biblical Unitarianism which is meant to boost his confidence with his poor answer..

"i have no answer/rebutal, plus i cannot show where "angels creating" is mentioned, so all i have left is to throw shade on you and double down on my beliefs!!"

[Ideological "opponent" you guys/TrevorL, pick one] does not seem to understand or accept the clear and simple teaching of Psalm 8:4-6. I suggest that [@KV-44-v1/TrvorL's (pick one)] 's attempt is very poor and this matches his denunciation of Biblical [Unitarianism/Trinitarianism (pick one)] which is meant to boost his confidence with his poor answer.

So when your ideology is defeated, you resort to double edge swords.

Proverbs 28:1.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again KV-44-v1,

i have no answer/rebutal, plus i cannot show where "angels creating" is mentioned

Genesis 1:26-27 and Psalm 8:4-6. Have you properly considered these. Why has Elohim in Psalm 8:5 been translated The Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

Greetings again KV-44-v1,

Genesis 1:26-27 and Psalm 8:4-6. Have you properly considered these. Why has Elohim in Psalm 8:5 been translated The Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

And now you have surely gone because you greatly long for your father’s house, but why did you steal my gods?” Genesis 31:30

The same reason Elohim refers to idols.

The same reason Elohim refers to demonic powers.

“You shall have no other gods before Me. Exodus 20:3

Because Elohim is a plural word; it expresses plurality.

So as always the context dictates who the word Elohim refers to:

God; Godhead, Trinity
Angels
Idols
False Gods

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Genesis 1:26-27


Contextually it’s crystal clear that Elohim refers to the Godhead; the Trinity
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Not angels - plural
Not idols - plural
Not demonic false gods - plural

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JLB,

Contextually it’s crystal clear that Elohim refers to the Godhead; the Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

But David, when he alludes to, quotes, and comments on the creation of man indicates that The Angels are included in the plurality of Elohim and Yahweh is thus speaking to the Angels, the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26, who are his ministers or servants in this creation process, while Yahweh is the "he" of Genesis 1:27, the overall Creator, the Master Designer and Power, as also revealed in Psalm 8:1-3. Man was made a little lower than the Angels, and now suffer death as a result of sin, but in the resurrection the faithful will be made equal unto the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

No, I am not ignoring Genesis 1:27. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator. Same principle as veni, vici, vidi.

Now, you're ignoring the context of Gen. 1:26. You habe to take them both together. You keep prooftexting by yaking rach separately, and so miss the entire point being made.

Psalm 8:4-6 does say that Yahweh created man a little lower than the Angels, alluding to and commenting on Genesis 1:26-27. David uses the framework and language of the Genesis Creation to speak about the New Creation centred in Jesus, the Son of Man. Jesus also was made a little lower than the Angels, in the image and after the likeness of God

The only allusion is to the creation of humans. Angles are not at all in the context of Gen. 1:26-27. Jesus is the Word, the second person of the Trinity, who is God in nature, made flesh (John 1:1-14).

and the Angels.

No. This is entirely you reading what you want into the text to avoid the plain and obvious conclusion. Nowhere in Scripture are humans said to be made in the image and likeness of angels. Nowhere. Gen. 1:27 unequivocally states that humans are made in the image of God only. And that is in the context of God speaking in plural personal pronouns in verse 26.

 

[Free]

But David, when he alludes to, quotes, and comments on the creation of man indicates that The Angels are included in the plurality of Elohim and Yahweh is thus speaking to the Angels, the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26, who are his ministers or servants in this creation process,

No, there is absolutely no such connection made. That is reading into the text your own ideas, for the sole purpose of avoiding the plain and obvious meaning of Gen. 1:26-27.

while Yahweh is the "he" of Genesis 1:27, the overall Creator, the Master Designer and Power, as also revealed in Psalm 8:1-3.

It seems that you really don’t understand how context works. The “he” and “his” of Gen. 1:27 can only be the “us” and “our” of verse 26; that is how context works.

Not to mention that you continually ignore passages such as Heb. 1:10-12, in which the Father says it was the Son who creates, even quoting a passage attributed to Yahweh.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

It seems that you really don’t understand how context works. The “he” and “his” of Gen. 1:27 can only be the “us” and “our” of verse 26; that is how context works.

I am still very happy with my exposition. I find it interesting but strange how Trinitarians claim God is three Persons and yet God is one Being. The following is one strange example of this concept, which I consider a contradiction.

The only explanation is that God is talking to himself in verse 26; a multiplicity within himself having a conversation about creating humans in his image, which is then performed in verse 27.

"The only exposition"??? "God is talking to himself"?? But verse 26 says "our image" and God is talking to someone or someones else..
My God is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

I am still very happy with my exposition. I find it interesting but strange how Trinitarians claim God is three Persons and yet God is one Being. The following is one strange example of this concept, which I consider a contradiction.

And, yet, it makes perfect sense of Gen. 1:26-27, while your explanation require you to read other things into it that have nothing to do with the context.

"The only exposition"??? "God is talking to himself"?? But verse 26 says "our image" and God is talking to someone or someones else..

Yes, exactly! That shows multiplicity within the one God, hence why the Trinity makes perfect sense of those two verses. If God was talking to angels in verse 26, then verse 27 makes no sense. However, if the one being that is God consists of three divine persons, then it is God talking to himself, which makes perfect sense of plural personal pronouns in verse 26 and singular personal pronouns in verse 27.

So, we have one God ("his," "he") who exists as three divine persons ("us," "our").

My God is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

That is your god, but that is not the God of Scripture.

Zec 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. (ESV)

When, according to your position, was the Father pierced?

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (ESV)

How, according to your position, did the Father obtain (or purchase) the church "with his own blood"? That is, when did the Father shed his own blood?

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Why is it that the Father says the Son created everything and strongly implies that he is Yahweh by attributing a passage about Yahweh to the Son? Why is it that you have never provided a response to this passage?

Why is it that with every other passage that proves, unequivocally, that Jesus is truly God (being also truly man, of course), you cannot provide any meaning based on a plain reading, but rather impose all manner of out-of-context verses or other ideas and so twist Scripture to fit your beliefs?

Gen. 1:26-27, although strange in a sense, is clear in what it is saying. God speaks to himself with plural personal pronouns in "deciding" to create humans in his image, and then the text switches to singular personal pronouns when stating the act of God creating humans in "his own" image. That strongly suggests a plurality of "persons" within the one God. No other explanation makes sense, especially because we are nowhere said to be made in the image of angels or that angels helped create humans (or anything, for that matter).