Is God’s grace available to all people?

[Bruce.Leiter]

why does it need to be in the bible? the bible is not the rule of faith for christians

yes IC Lk 1:49

you have to be in grace or in possession of grace to "fall from grace!"

donadams, if the "Bible is not the rule of faith for Christians," what is the rule of faith? Your church? Do you disagree with Paul's description in 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[donadams]

donadams, if the "Bible is not the rule of faith for Christians," what is the rule of faith? Your church? Do you disagree with Paul's description in 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

there was no new testament for 50 yrs after Christ and not a collected canon at the council of rome 382 then bibles were rare and expensive and most people illiterate until the 20th century

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

Must Hear Christ!
matt 3:17

Must hear the Church!
Matt 18:17 matt 28:19 acts 1:8

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

The gates of hell SHALL NOT prevail against the one, holy, Catholics,
& apostolic church founded by Christ on peter and the apostles!
Matt 16:18-19

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach & sanctify all men unto eternal salvation of all men! matt 28:19-20

Christ and His church are one: Acts 9:4 mystical communion: eph 5:32

 

[donadams]

donadams, if the "Bible is not the rule of faith for Christians," what is the rule of faith? Your church? Do you disagree with Paul's description in 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

man of God is a bishop

and the apostles are inspired God breathed Jn 20:21-23

 

[donadams]

donadams, if the "Bible is not the rule of faith for Christians," what is the rule of faith? Your church? Do you disagree with Paul's description in 2 Timothy 3:16-17?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

acts 17 Christ must suffer
the bereans knew from both scripture and tradition

like the eunuch in acts 8
had scripture God sent and apostle to teach (tradition)

thks

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

there was no new testament for 50 yrs after Christ and not a collected canon at the council of rome 382 then bibles were rare and expensive and most people illiterate until the 20th century

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

Must Hear Christ!
matt 3:17

Must hear the Church!
Matt 18:17 matt 28:19 acts 1:8

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

The gates of hell SHALL NOT prevail against the one, holy, Catholics,
& apostolic church founded by Christ on peter and the apostles!
Matt 16:18-19

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach & sanctify all men unto eternal salvation of all men! matt 28:19-20

Christ and His church are one: Acts 9:4 mystical communion: eph 5:32

What you're saying is that the church, not the Bible, is the basis for our faith and practice. Is that right, donadams? If so, then, what do you say to the following passages, which say that God's Word is that basis?

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
Psa 19:9 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
Psa 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
Psa 19:13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression.
Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.

2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[donadams]

What you're saying is that the church, not the Bible, is the basis for our faith and practice. Is that right, donadams? If so, then, what do you say to the following passages, which say that God's Word is that basis?

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
Psa 19:9 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
Psa 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
Psa 19:13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression.
Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.

2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

its the apostolic church that preaches

the apostles are lead by nto all truth Jn 16:13 and they must teach us

Christians must be taught or instructed, according to the sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed, as commanded by Christ! Matt 28:19-20 acts 1:1-8

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach and sanctify (baptize) all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

The Holy Spirit leads the apostles into all truth (Jn 16:13) they must teach us! (Matt 28:19)

Lk 1:4
Matt 5:14
Matt 6:33
matt 16:18-19
matt 18:17-18
Matt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21
Acts 2:42
Acts 16:17
Acts 8:31
Titus 1:9
Titus 2:12
Phil 4:9
Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…

No Christian has the authority to read scripture for yourself and decide your own doctrines or beliefs! “One faith” Eph 4:5 Thee faith once handed to the saints” Jude 1:3

Our Holy Religion "truth & the church" are revealed by God and have a divine origin and cannot be reformed, they are immutable!

otherwise you get chaos of biblical anarchy thousands of sects founded by men teaching errors

One true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles teaching truth

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

16th century reformation plantation

early church fathers taught the true faith of Jesus Christ
mt 28:19 acts 1:8 acts 2;42
in union with Christ mt 28:20 Jn 15:5

thks

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

its the apostolic church that preaches

the apostles are lead by nto all truth Jn 16:13 and they must teach us

Christians must be taught or instructed, according to the sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed, as commanded by Christ! Matt 28:19-20 acts 1:1-8

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach and sanctify (baptize) all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

The Holy Spirit leads the apostles into all truth (Jn 16:13) they must teach us! (Matt 28:19)

Lk 1:4
Matt 5:14
Matt 6:33
matt 16:18-19
matt 18:17-18
Matt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21
Acts 2:42
Acts 16:17
Acts 8:31
Titus 1:9
Titus 2:12
Phil 4:9
Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…

No Christian has the authority to read scripture for yourself and decide your own doctrines or beliefs! “One faith” Eph 4:5 Thee faith once handed to the saints” Jude 1:3

Our Holy Religion "truth & the church" are revealed by God and have a divine origin and cannot be reformed, they are immutable!

otherwise you get chaos of biblical anarchy thousands of sects founded by men teaching errors

One true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles teaching truth

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

16th century reformation plantation

early church fathers taught the true faith of Jesus Christ
mt 28:19 acts 1:8 acts 2;42
in union with Christ mt 28:20 Jn 15:5

thks

donadams, everyone's teachings must be measured against the Word of God, the Bible, because people are not infallible or perfect. God, who inspired the Bible, is.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thats in your religion not mine. Grace in my religion is omnipotent, the effectual working of Gods Power, God is Almighty

Let's check out YOUR religion:

Grace is resistible.

Acts 7:51
51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
The Holy Spirit can be resisted.


Matthew 23:37
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Man has to be willing to follow God.


1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Either God does not have the power to do what He wishes
or
man has the ability to reject the grace of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

What you're saying is that the church, not the Bible, is the basis for our faith and practice. Is that right, donadams? If so, then, what do you say to the following passages, which say that God's Word is that basis?

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
Psa 19:9 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
Psa 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
Psa 19:13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression.
Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.

2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

EVERY denomination believes the bible is the word of God and is to be followed.

The problem is, as mentioned in another thread of yours...

that we INTEPRET the bible differently.

And Protestantism has come to the point where EACH ONE OF US has the authority to interpret the bible as he sees fit.

If we do not all agree on what the bible teaches...
there can be no truth.

There can be only one truth.
Who should determine that truth?

 

[GodsGrace]

donadams, everyone's teachings must be measured against the Word of God, the Bible, because people are not infallible or perfect. God, who inspired the Bible, is.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.

Right.
So now what do we do?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and amen.

The grace for salvation has been made available to all people of the earth.


For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, Titus 2:11 ESV


This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 ESV

Hi JLB
YES!
God's grace is available to all people.

God would want that all men be saved,
but they won't be because they are free to reject the grace of God.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God offers His grace to all,
but there's a condition:

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

Let's check out YOUR religion:

Grace is resistible.

Acts 7:51
51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
The Holy Spirit can be resisted.


Matthew 23:37
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Man has to be willing to follow God.


1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Either God does not have the power to do what He wishes
or
man has the ability to reject the grace of God.

Grace in my religion is omnipotent, the effectual working of Gods Power, God is Almighty

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace in my religion is omnipotent, the effectual working of Gods Power, God is Almighty

Yes BF.
We all know that God is Almighty.
We all know that God is omnipotent.

But some of us believe he gifted free will to mankind.

So how would you reply to my scripture?
Did Stephen, Matthew, Paul and JESUS get it wrong?

 

[brightfame52]

Yes BF.
We all know that God is Almighty.
We all know that God is omnipotent.

But some of us believe he gifted free will to mankind.

So how would you reply to my scripture?
Did Stephen, Matthew, Paul and JESUS get it wrong?

Im not going to waste my time with you, you should know that

 

[GodsGrace]

Im not going to waste my time with you, you should know that

I know.
The truth is difficult to debate.

No reply to my scripture?
Yes. The truth is difficult to debate.

However, I will be making comments from time to time,,,

God either is UNABLE to save everyone, as He wishes
or
Man has free will to reject His grace.


You have to pick one.
Not possible under the Reformed/Calvinist teachings.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I know.
The truth is difficult to debate.

No reply to my scripture?
Yes. The truth is difficult to debate.

However, I will be making comments from time to time,,,

God either is UNABLE to save everyone, as He wishes
or
Man has free will to reject His grace.


You have to pick one.
Not possible under the Reformed/Calvinist teachings.

I wouldn't hold my breath I know brightfame and he doesn't know how to respond to things that contradict his general beliefs he says he won't waste his time but it is not that he doesn't want to waste his time he just doesn't have answer

Now personally I find the strict beliefs of calvanism to be easy to either prove or disprove because it is so strictly laid out as a type of religion the issue though is that I have not met many who subscribe to it to be of a good topic discussion because they tend to not be very upfront when cornered

At least this has been my experience

 

[GodsGrace]

I wouldn't hold my breath I know brightfame and he doesn't know how to respond to things that contradict his general beliefs he says he won't waste his time but it is not that he doesn't want to waste his time he just doesn't have answer

Now personally I find the strict beliefs of calvanism to be easy to either prove or disprove because it is so strictly laid out as a type of religion the issue though is that I have not met many who subscribe to it to be of a good topic discussion because they tend to not be very upfront when cornered

At least this has been my experience

Hi Blain
I also know the other poster very well.
But I thank you for your post...it's very thoughtful.

You're right that it's not easy to speak to the Reformed/Calvinist believers....
and if the conversation does continue it usually turns into ad hominems.
My feeling is that it is such an illogical belief system and God is a very logical God.

It came about because of Augustine's belief that man has no free will and thus is
so depraved that he cannot even search for God. (even though the bible instructs us to search for God).

So when one theological belief is wrong...it causes an entire system to be incorrect.
No fault of anyone who ascribes to this system....it is, today, probably the strongest denomination
because it hasn't fallen prey to the modern world.

Nice to have you aboard!

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Hi Blain
I also know the other poster very well.
But I thank you for your post...it's very thoughtful.

You're right that it's not easy to speak to the Reformed/Calvinist believers....
and if the conversation does continue it usually turns into ad hominems.
My feeling is that it is such an illogical belief system and God is a very logical God.

It came about because of Augustine's belief that man has no free will and thus is
so depraved that he cannot even search for God. (even though the bible instructs us to search for God).

So when one theological belief is wrong...it causes an entire system to be incorrect.
No fault of anyone who ascribes to this system....it is, today, probably the strongest denomination
because it hasn't fallen prey to the modern world.

Nice to have you aboard!

I am simply unable to wrap my mind around subscribing to that kind of theology as like you said it is very illogical and God is the author of logic

As far as the whole free will thing goes I have tried to reason with plenty of people on that matter but if one is so dedicated to their way of thinking that they are simply unable to be reasoned with then there is nothing we can do.

I was searching for God before I was saved but it took me getting to the point of utter surrender to be saved but the thing is I was willingly searching for him and if man has no free will then how are we to be held accountable on judgement day?

I mean if one person was always destined to be saved and the other not all because they had no will to accept Christ as savior which is a verb context then why would God hold them accountable?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am simply unable to wrap my mind around subscribing to that kind of theology as like you said it is very illogical and God is the author of logic

As far as the whole free will thing goes I have tried to reason with plenty of people on that matter but if one is so dedicated to their way of thinking that they are simply unable to be reasoned with then there is nothing we can do.

I was searching for God before I was saved but it took me getting to the point of utter surrender to be saved but the thing is I was willingly searching for him and if man has no free will then how are we to be held accountable on judgement day?

I mean if one person was always destined to be saved and the other not all because they had no will to accept Christ as savior which is a verb context then why would God hold them accountable?

Of course!
How would God be just if He didn't give to each person the opportunity to become saved?

I think that we read scripture the way we've been taught.
I've found that reading the early theologians,,,those that were taught by the Apostles -which would be the Apostolic Fathers, to be very helpful.

Free will was NEVER questioned until Augustine in the 5th century.
And who was Augustine?
A 10 year long manachean monk who decided to become Catholic.
He was good at debating with Pelagius and so the Catholic church gave him some freeway...
however, even the CC never accepted his idea that man had no free will.

I think we just need to post on here so non-calvinist teachings can be read by those reading along.

You know, a priest once told me that if someone is searching for God...they're already saved.
(I'm not Catholic - not that there's anything wrong with it).

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Of course!
How would God be just if He didn't give to each person the opportunity to become saved?

I think that we read scripture the way we've been taught.
I've found that reading the early theologians,,,those that were taught by the Apostles -which would be the Apostolic Fathers, to be very helpful.

Free will was NEVER questioned until Augustine in the 5th century.
And who was Augustine?
A 10 year long manachean monk who decided to become Catholic.
He was good at debating with Pelagius and so the Catholic church gave him some freeway...
however, even the CC never accepted his idea that man had no free will.

I think we just need to post on here so non-calvinist teachings can be read by those reading along.

You know, a priest once told me that if someone is searching for God...they're already saved.
(I'm not Catholic - not that there's anything wrong with it).

I like to consider this, God tells Cain that sin is "crouching at the door" and that he must "master it." now that phrase there master it is a clear indication that Cain had a choice to make and clearly there was free will involved .

He chose wrrong but God even knowing the choice he would make still gave him a chance and a choice to make.
So if this is indeed the case then how can one argue that man has no free will when even adam and eve were given the same opportunity with the tree and fruit?

No calvanist has ever been able to argue against it when I present this to them they ignore it and don't respond to it.

Not that I have anything against the people themselves but what I have issue with is the danger of the calvanistic view, in ignorance people follow teachings of others instead of reading their bibles and if they read it they have a preset mind and theology before hand so they only see what they want to see

From the beginning it is clear that we are offered a choice and that choice even with God knowing the choice we make coincides with whether predestination is real or not as well because God knew what Cain was going to do but offered him a choice anyways. Why is that?