Does Saul's conversion reveal the essence of faith?

[Wheat Field]

Saul was, 'still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples,' when he had his road to Damascus experience. There was no one preaching the Gospel to him and there was no studying of Jesus from scripture (at least in the NT sense).

Saul's conversion was essentially directed by Jesus (if we are to believe what is written) and it appears that His reality was incontrovertible.

Worth citing, too, is Abraham, who had no Hebrew scriptures that he could examine and, in a similar way to Saul, God directly communicated his existence to him without any human intermediary.

Further, when Jesus asked his disciples who they thought he was (Matthew 16:1ff) Peter replied: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus' response, again, points to a divine origin:
“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."

Putting it starkly, it seems that faith is determined from the divine perspective.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Saul was, 'still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples,' when he had his road to Damascus experience. There was no one preaching the Gospel to him and there was no studying of Jesus from scripture (at least in the NT sense).

Saul's conversion was essentially directed by Jesus (if we are to believe what is written) and it appears that His reality was incontrovertible.

Worth citing, too, is Abraham, who had no Hebrew scriptures that he could examine and, in a similar way to Saul, God directly communicated his existence to him without any human intermediary.

Further, when Jesus asked his disciples who they thought he was (Matthew 16:1ff) Peter replied: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus' response, again, points to a divine origin:
“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."

Putting it starkly, it seems that faith is determined from the divine perspective.

Hello again, Wheatfield, and hope you have been well.

This argument seems to have a ring of Calvinist thinking to it, though that may not have been your intention. For my part, I do believe some are chosen from even before birth to fulfill certain functions, though I do not believe they are without the freewill to refuse it if they so desire. There are a few references in scripture that some were so chosen, but this does not appear to be the case with all, or even most.

If I may, why does this matter interest you?

 

[for_his_glory]

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saul thinking he was a man of God persecuting the Church thinking he was doing this in the name of God, did not come to faith in Christ Jesus until Jesus literally spoke to him on the road to Damascus, Acts 9. That day Paul came to faith learning of Christ as he was converted to Christianity and became a man of faith in Christ Jesus after Jesus spoke to him. The written NT was not yet available at that time and Paul rejecting what the Apostles were teaching of Christ did not know the plans God had for him until God/Jesus was revealed to him.

This happens to many of us, even though we have the written word of God, but yet having a very small amount of faith at first or losing faith along the way, Jesus has to literally get our attention at times of our desperation like Jesus did for me and many others in order to come fully back to Him. His voice is not always audible to us, but yet if we listen by reading the word of God Jesus is made manifested to us within His written word as the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts when we humble ourselves before Him.

 

[Fish153]

Hello again, Wheatfield, and hope you have been well.

This argument seems to have a ring of Calvinist thinking to it, though that may not have been your intention. For my part, I do believe some are chosen from even before birth to fulfill certain functions, though I do not believe they are without the freewill to refuse it if they so desire. There are a few references in scripture that some were so chosen, but this does not appear to be the case with all, or even most.

If I may, why does this matter interest you?

Hidden In Him---- you said above "I do not believe they are without the freewill to refuse it if they so desire".

Just curious what you think of this. Read this scripture:

"And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and WHEN you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” (Luke 22:31,32)

Could Peter have refused to return to Jesus after his denial? I ask this because Jesus does not say "IF" you return to me. He says "WHEN" you return to me. Jesus is basically COMMANDING that Peter WILL RETURN from his denial. Can any man refuse what God has commanded? Could Paul have refused? I'm really not so sure. Jesus states to Cornelius that Paul WILL appear before Kings in the future for Him. It is verses like these that make me a partial-Calvinist. lol

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hidden In Him---- you said above "I do not believe they are without the freewill to refuse it if they so desire".

Just curious what you think of this. Read this scripture:

"And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and WHEN you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” (Luke 22:31,32)

Could Peter have refused to return to Jesus after his denial? I ask this because Jesus does not say "IF" you return to me. He says "WHEN" you return to me. Jesus is basically COMMANDING that Peter WILL RETURN from his denial. Can any man refuse what God has commanded? Could Paul have refused? I'm really not so sure. Jesus states to Cornelius that Paul WILL appear before Kings in the future for Him. It is verses like these that make me a partial-Calvinist. lol

Blessings, Fish.

This is a Q&A thread, so all responses are supposed to be addressed to the OP. But maybe another time.

 

[Fish153]

Blessings, Fish.

This is a Q&A thread, so all responses are supposed to be addressed to the OP. But maybe another time.

Oh---OK---thanks. Completely understood.

 

[Wheat Field]

Hello again, Wheatfield, and hope you have been well.

Hi - I'm good ta. Hope the same for you.

This argument seems to have a ring of Calvinist thinking to it, though that may not have been your intention. For my part, I do believe some are chosen from even before birth to fulfill certain functions, though I do not believe they are without the freewill to refuse it if they so desire. There are a few references in scripture that some were so chosen, but this does not appear to be the case with all, or even most.

No, it isn't my intention to make this about predestination - though it could come up as you point out.

If I may, why does this matter interest you?

Though I remain interested and 'drawn' to Christ, studying the Bible, at least the problematic areas, just seems to push me in the opposite direction....which is why the example of Abraham and Paul is of interest. I guess I should have balanced my OP with the quote from Romans 1:

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[Wheat Field]

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saul thinking he was a man of God persecuting the Church thinking he was doing this in the name of God, did not come to faith in Christ Jesus until Jesus literally spoke to him on the road to Damascus, Acts 9. That day Paul came to faith learning of Christ as he was converted to Christianity and became a man of faith in Christ Jesus after Jesus spoke to him. The written NT was not yet available at that time and Paul rejecting what the Apostles were teaching of Christ did not know the plans God had for him until God/Jesus was revealed to him.

Without this 'download' from God to Paul then we might wonder if faith was indeed possible for him.

This happens to many of us, even though we have the written word of God, but yet having a very small amount of faith at first or losing faith along the way, Jesus has to literally get our attention at times of our desperation like Jesus did for me and many others in order to come fully back to Him. His voice is not always audible to us, but yet if we listen by reading the word of God Jesus is made manifested to us within His written word as the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts when we humble ourselves before Him.

May I ask how your attention was grabbed?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Just jumping in here…

I’d say Saul to Paul conversion and transformation is a dramatic extreme example of…

How conversion works, in general.

My own experience has been ongoing for nearly 13 years now. I got genuinely saved while still living in the seemingly never ending haze of too much involuntary electroshock. I’ve only recently and only by the grace of God, recovered sufficiently to be able to function properly in society. And yet…

Following cs Lewis in thinking that God has a perfect form of each believer and that much of the sanctification process is about the recreation of a human being into who and what he truly is…

My slow and steady…but genuinely unexpected…recovery is God’s work playing out in my little life in this fallen world . And…

Even though it took years to become normal much less capable of living in a more Christian way…

Each conversion is God’s work. All humans are blinded by sin until and unless God brings them to their senses. And following Lewis, many…most?…conversions aren’t as dramatic and intense as Paul’s…

And I think that’s largely because our view is much more limited than what’s going on in the mind of God. That and each member of the body has a different function at a different time and place in God’s will…

 

[Wheat Field]

Just jumping in here…

I’d say Saul to Paul conversion and transformation is a dramatic extreme example of…

How conversion works, in general.

My own experience has been ongoing for nearly 13 years now. I got genuinely saved while still living in the seemingly never ending haze of too much involuntary electroshock. I’ve only recently and only by the grace of God, recovered sufficiently to be able to function properly in society. And yet…

Following cs Lewis in thinking that God has a perfect form of each believer and that much of the sanctification process is about the recreation of a human being into who and what he truly is…

My slow and steady…but genuinely unexpected…recovery is God’s work playing out in my little life in this fallen world . And…

Even though it took years to become normal much less capable of living in a more Christian way…

Each conversion is God’s work. All humans are blinded by sin until and unless God brings them to their senses. And following Lewis, many…most?…conversions aren’t as dramatic and intense as Paul’s…

And I think that’s largely because our view is much more limited than what’s going on in the mind of God. That and each member of the body has a different function at a different time and place in God’s will…

Thanks Ce - how absolute is:
Each conversion is God’s work. All humans are blinded by sin until and unless God brings them to their senses.

in your view?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Though I remain interested and 'drawn' to Christ, studying the Bible, at least the problematic areas, just seems to push me in the opposite direction....which is why the example of Abraham and Paul is of interest. I guess I should have balanced my OP with the quote from Romans 1:

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I suppose I would reply with something similar to CE. I did not peacefully come to Christ through mental analysis (though some have), I was deep into sin. I was playing in heavy metal bands that were ever-increasingly leaning in the direction of overt Satanist themes, and I was destroying my life in the process. Everything good in it I was losing, and all I was left with was sin. It was not making for a happy life, so whatever it was I needed, I decided that wasn't it and quit.

I then chose to pick up a Bible one day, and decided the world would be a much better place if people lived by the principles taught in God's word, so I turned to Christ and began devouring the Bible whole-heartedly. So my conversion was more extreme, and involved a complete reversal of my worldview, values, and beliefs.

I would not really know how to advise you coming at it from the angle you appear to be approaching things from, other than to say seek God in prayer while He may be found. Ask Him to reveal the answers to you Himself that you have the biggest questions about, and keep asking until you get your answers (James 1:5-8).

 

[Wheat Field]

I suppose I would reply with something similar to CE. I did not peacefully come to Christ through mental analysis (though some have), I was deep into sin. I was playing in heavy metal bands that were ever-increasingly leaning in the direction of overt Satanist themes, and I was destroying my life in the process. Everything good in it I was losing, and all I was left with was sin. It was not making for a happy life, so whatever it was I needed, I decided that wasn't it and quit.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I then chose to pick up a Bible one day, and decided the world would be a much better place if people lived by the principles taught in God's word, so I turned to Christ and began devouring the Bible whole-heartedly. So my conversion was more extreme, and involved a complete reversal of my worldview, values, and beliefs.

I would not really know how to advise you coming at it from the angle you appear to be approaching things from, other than to say seek God in prayer while He may be found. Ask Him to reveal the answers to you Himself that you have the biggest questions about, and keep asking until you get your answers (James 1:5-8).

I do keep seeking and asking and praying. I do agree that the world would benefit from Biblical principles though it seems that it's probably on a precipice right now - moving in the wrong direction.

My feeling is that, whilst Jesus continues to be greatly of interest, believing in the Bible in total is beyond me. It is an awful lot to take on faith. The more I study and seek, the more doubtful and sceptical I become. The only possibility (if there is any truth in God) would be something along the lines of Saul's conversion.

 

[Who Me]

Saul's conversion was essentially directed by Jesus (if we are to believe what is written) and it appears that His reality was incontrovertible.

Worth citing, too, is Abraham, who had no Hebrew scriptures that he could examine and, in a similar way to Saul, God directly communicated his existence to him without any human intermediary.

Why shouldn't we believe how Saul was converted?
Equally why should we insist that God work according to our rules?

If you follow missionary societies reaching into muslim countries you will come acros accounts of muslims having dreams and visions of Jesus and following their discovery of the bible coming to faith.

Abrahan livied before scriptures were written. He had the accounts of Adam, Noah, Enoch, etc so knew something of God, but God dealt with him directly on many occassions.

Saul knew the Talmud yet had not understood it, so it took an encounter with Jesus to change him.

God still deals with us, primarily through the bible, preaching and our meditation on scripture, but it is still God speaking to us. Assuming we are listening!

 

[Wheat Field]

Why shouldn't we believe how Saul was converted?

One certainly can.

Equally why should we insist that God work according to our rules?

Who is insisting that? I'm not. What I have said, though, is that belief in the Bible as a whole is difficult (at least for me) - and yet that is the very thing we are asked to do.

If you follow missionary societies reaching into muslim countries you will come acros accounts of muslims having dreams and visions of Jesus and following their discovery of the bible coming to faith.

Ok.

Abraham lived before scriptures were written. He had the accounts of Adam, Noah, Enoch, etc so knew something of God, but God dealt with him directly on many occasions.

I guess I am asking if it's possible to believe in God without such direct communication?

Saul knew the Talmud yet had not understood it, so it took an encounter with Jesus to change him.

God still deals with us, primarily through the bible, preaching and our meditation on scripture, but it is still God speaking to us. Assuming we are listening!

Ok.

 

[Wheat Field]

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

That is a very straightforward statement is it not? Though I am very much attracted to Christ, I am yet unable to say he is Lord....I cannot say it with conviction. I do not know if it is true.

 

[hawkman]

May I ask how your attention was grabbed?

The word of God was preached to me from the pulpit . Have you attended a Church were the word has been preached to you ?

 

[Wheat Field]

The word of God was preached to me from the pulpit . Have you attended a Church were the word has been preached to you ?

Thanks.

Not for many years, but I certainly used to when I called myself a Christian (though I never actually was).

There are definitely some inspiring and wonderful scriptures, for sure - particularly when Jesus speaks. It makes you ponder how could this divine man possibly be wrong?

 

[hawkman]

Not for many years, but I certainly used to when I called myself a Christian (though I never actually was).

Do you want to be a Christian ? Yes or No .

There are definitely some inspiring and wonderful scriptures, for sure - particularly when Jesus speaks. It makes you ponder how could this divine man possibly be wrong?

It makes me wonder will we be ready when Jesus come back ! Are you ready ?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Ye must die to be born again. People often forget the mystery cult aspect of Christianity. Lose your life in order to find it, etc.

I dunno personally I knew scripture and doctrine 101, but it wasn’t until I felt…something…that I actually got truly saved. In the surface I was just another loser on bond who got religion. Nearly 13 years later…

Whatever hope I had for having some kind of workable social identity…not much of one of course…is gone. I’m now considered schizophrenic and I don’t think non entity quite describes my social situation. And yet…

I’m healthy and surprisingly normal and my once understandably estranged parents are incredibly supportive. I live a quiet modest pleasant life in a modest strata of mainstream society. I’m actually typing this on my patio looking at my houseplants and taking in a very nice view.

After my conversion it dawned on me that pride had been part of what kept me from genuine conversion…maybe? Hindsight is 20/20, sometimes…

Other times…ones dealing with intangibles, things no one can see touch weigh truly measure…

Pride? Anger? The rather obvious fact that I had been me for each and every single day for 28 years at that point? I dunno.

I pray that God will reach out to you directly…

 

[Wheat Field]

Do you want to be a Christian ? Yes or No .

If it's true - for sure.

It makes me wonder will we be ready when Jesus come back ! Are you ready ?

Since I'm not a believer then I guess I'm not.