Did the Son have a beginning?

[Corn Pop]

The thief on the cross must have been thinking this Jesus dude next to him is speaking the truth knowing if he had the same opportunity to get off the death penalty as he is hanging on a cross about to die and could be free and enjoy a roast dinner he would be down in split second, and was thinking Jesus next to him is holding his testimony till death he must be the truth when offered a easy free pass to get off the cross and yet he refuses, and the thief on the cross seen that as trustworthy and having nothing to lose believed and put his trust and hope in Christ. Remember me when you come into your Kingdom he said, and Christ credited him with that.

 

[Randy]

I agree, Randy and Free, that the word "begotten" referring to Jesus in the KJV is a mistranslation of the almost-identical participle that means "to exist." It means for Jesus that he is the self-existent or unique Son of God, not that he literally began when he was conceived and physically born. The newer translations got it right, while the KJV made one its few errors, perhaps because it relied on the only manuscripts it had from the tenth century instead of the more-recently-discovered third and fourth century ones the newer translations have to work with.

Your conclusions are driven by the doctrine of the trinity not the text. You think there was a word that existed that showed the only begotten son of a parent that meant no beginning?

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

Greek Concordance: μονογενὴς (monogenēs) -- 4 Occurrences

Only the Father is unbegotten but even that doesn't state no beginning.
It means IF the Father has a beginning it could not be by any other being.
Jesus is stated from the Father alone as a son before all ages.

You can't tell who the greater is?
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

Lord can also be used to show one's sovereign as well as God. Psalm 110 The Lord said to my Lord
One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is not our Father and He stated another as our God. "My God and Your God" "My Father and your Father"

The Firstborn of all creation.
Jesus is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son.

When God brings the Firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. (why the need?)
It has always been the church of the Firstborn.

Besides this is clear to me the person of the Father. It's the doctrine of the trinity that compels you to look elsewhere not the text.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now about the Son I believe this but we disagree on how it is so.
The image of the invisible God not the invisible God. A Son called mighty God.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

In Christ or the Son dwells all the fullness of the "Fathers" Deity .

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus has always been, even before the foundation of the world as He was never created as He has no beginning nor end.

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an Ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water (word) and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water (word), and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8


Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

self-ex·ist·ent
/ˌselfiɡˈzistənt,ˌselfeɡˈzistənt/
adjective

1. ''existing independently of other beings or causes.'' ok Jesus is not God

Please explain what you mean, locust. I don't understand your claim about Jesus, who is God and has always been God, but who became the GOD-MAN at his conception and birth, fully God and fully man. He was man to be able to die in order to forgive us and God to rise from the dead to give us new life so that we can believe in and follow him.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Your conclusions are driven by the doctrine of the trinity not the text. You think there was a word that existed that showed the only begotten son of a parent that meant no beginning?

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

Greek Concordance: μονογενὴς (monogenēs) -- 4 Occurrences

Only the Father is unbegotten but even that doesn't state no beginning.
It means IF the Father has a beginning it could not be by any other being.
Jesus is stated from the Father alone as a son before all ages.

You can't tell who the greater is?
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

Lord can also be used to show one's sovereign as well as God. Psalm 110 The Lord said to my Lord
One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is not our Father and He stated another as our God. "My God and Your God" "My Father and your Father"

The Firstborn of all creation.
Jesus is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son.

When God brings the Firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. (why the need?)
It has always been the church of the Firstborn.

Besides this is clear to me the person of the Father. It's the doctrine of the trinity that compels you to look elsewhere not the text.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now about the Son I believe this but we disagree on how it is so.
The image of the invisible God not the invisible God. A Son called mighty God.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

In Christ or the Son dwells all the fullness of the "Fathers" Deity .

Ah, Randy, so, are you a Jehovah's Witness? They believe that the Person who later became Jesus in the flesh is a created, spiritual being, not God. It appears to me that's also what you believe.

However, Jesus claims repeatedly to be God with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the Gospel of John by way of his "I am" statements that identify him with the God of Moses' burning bush in Exodus 3:

Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

Jhn_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn_6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Jhn_6:48 I am the bread of life.
Jhn_6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Jhn_8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jhn_8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
Jhn_8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Jhn_9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Jhn_10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Jhn_10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jhn_10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
Jhn_10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Human reason cannot fully understand the mysterious God of the Bible. Why should we? He is God; we're not.

 

[locust]

Please explain what you mean, locust. I don't understand your claim about Jesus, who is God and has always been God, but who became the GOD-MAN at his conception and birth, fully God and fully man. He was man to be able to die in order to forgive us and God to rise from the dead to give us new life so that we can believe in and follow him.

How many times was Jesus called the Son of God in the Bible how many times was he called God

 

[onlysaved]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, today I want to pose a question that has pondered theologians for centuries: Did the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord, have a beginning? We all know from Scripture that Jesus walked among us, that He is the Word made flesh (John 1:14). But when we delve into the mystery of the God, we grapple with passages that hint at Jesus' pre-incarnate existence (Colossians 1:15-17). What do you all make of this?

Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,"
Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Colossians 1:17, "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Perhaps some of you have come across teachings that explore Jesus' eternal nature. Maybe others have questions about how this aligns with God the Father being the one and only God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

I believe this is a topic approached best with humility and a teachable spirit. Let's open the floor to respectful discussion, using scripture as our guide, and ultimately glorifying God through our pursuit of understanding His holy nature.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made..........
Jesus predates the creation of everything in our known universe.

 

[Corn Pop]

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

 

[Randy]

Ah, Randy, so, are you a Jehovah's Witness? They believe that the Person who later became Jesus in the flesh is a created, spiritual being, not God. It appears to me that's also what you believe.

However, Jesus claims repeatedly to be God with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the Gospel of John by way of his "I am" statements that identify him with the God of Moses' burning bush in Exodus 3:

Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

Jhn_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn_6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Jhn_6:48 I am the bread of life.
Jhn_6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Jhn_8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jhn_8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
Jhn_8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Jhn_9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Jhn_10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Jhn_10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jhn_10:37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
Jhn_10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Human reason cannot fully understand the mysterious God of the Bible. Why should we? He is God; we're not.

Nothing you posted states Jesus is coeternal. According to the Father He is Jesus's God and Jesus is His son. According to Jesus God is His God and Father as well.

Jesus stated another from Himself as our God and Father. My God and your God , My Father and your Father.
So when Paul writes God, our Father and to us there is but one God the Father He is cohesive with the declarations of the head of the body of Christ who calls His Father the only true God.

I am not a JW. Jesus is the Son who I pray to and worship as far back as my memory goes. I know Him and He knows me. (relationship not just belief)
Though He is all that the Father is He has always been a "child" of the Father. Gods Firstborn.

The eternal life found in the Son is His Father's Deity. He's speaking about life without end.
Just as the living Father sent me and I Iive because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

 

[Randy]

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made..........
Jesus predates the creation of everything in our known universe.

The beginning of the creation of God is before the world began. The world was made through Him.
Jesus was chosen before the creation of the world and all the fullness of the Deity was pleased to dwell in Him. Col 1:19 The Son has His Fathers nature from the beginning. (God)

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

You can't tell who is the greater?
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Your conclusions are driven by the doctrine of the trinity not the text. You think there was a word that existed that showed the only begotten son of a parent that meant no beginning?

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

Greek Concordance: μονογενὴς (monogenēs) -- 4 Occurrences

Only the Father is unbegotten but even that doesn't state no beginning.
It means IF the Father has a beginning it could not be by any other being.
Jesus is stated from the Father alone as a son before all ages.

You can't tell who the greater is?
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

Lord can also be used to show one's sovereign as well as God. Psalm 110 The Lord said to my Lord
One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is not our Father and He stated another as our God. "My God and Your God" "My Father and your Father"

The Firstborn of all creation.
Jesus is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son.

When God brings the Firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. (why the need?)
It has always been the church of the Firstborn.

Besides this is clear to me the person of the Father. It's the doctrine of the trinity that compels you to look elsewhere not the text.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now about the Son I believe this but we disagree on how it is so.
The image of the invisible God not the invisible God. A Son called mighty God.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

In Christ or the Son dwells all the fullness of the "Fathers" Deity .

Randy, your post is confusing, because you seem to quote phrases and verses but don't put quotations around them and fail to say where those quotes are from.

In understanding the clear meaning of the Gospel of John, I know that the doctrine of the Trinity comes from and is based on that book, not the slanted translation of the JWs but from the Greek. It seems to me that the JWs have attempted to understand the mysterious, 3-in-1 God of the Bible completely with their reasoning powers instead of bowing to the Mystery that is God. Similar to the Mormons, they were started in reaction to the denominational Trinitarianism of the 1800s and have, instead, adopted the rationalism of their time instead of the Bible's truths.

 

[Randy]

Randy, your post is confusing, because you seem to quote phrases and verses but don't put quotations around them and fail to say where those quotes are from.

In understanding the clear meaning of the Gospel of John, I know that the doctrine of the Trinity comes from and is based on that book, not the slanted translation of the JWs but from the Greek. It seems to me that the JWs have attempted to understand the mysterious, 3-in-1 God of the Bible completely with their reasoning powers instead of bowing to the Mystery that is God. Similar to the Mormons, they were started in reaction to the denominational Trinitarianism of the 1800s and have, instead, adopted the rationalism of their time instead of the Bible's truths.

I prefer truth as given from above.
Jesus's Father is the ONLY true God.
You think this is equal?
Therefore God, YOUR GOD.....

The same reason God is our God and Father is why God is Jesus's God and Father.
He formed our spirit and He is the true God.

In Jesus only did God will all His fullness to dwell. The only begotten God.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, (God was the logos)
Jesus, as (He is the very same spirit as the Logos), is the beginning of the creation of God and the Firstborn of all creation. Besides having the preeminence in all things what sets Him apart from all of Gods children is all the fullness of the Deity of the Father lives in Him. A Son who is called mighty God. A Son as in the offspring of the Father. A child of the Father. Gods Firstborn. One who does have a beginning at some point in history before the world began. (His spirit as the Fathers Deity in Him was gifted) One God as its the Fathers Deity in Him not another and He and the Father are one just as the Son of Man testified not as you believe.

We disagree on how this is so NOT in what it declares about the Son.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,
The image of the invisible God.

In regard to the church.
I agree the Son is begotten of the Father alone before all ages.
I disagree that happened without a beginning.

 

[onlysaved]

I prefer truth as given from above.
Jesus's Father is the ONLY true God.
You think this is equal?
Therefore God, YOUR GOD.....

The same reason God is our God and Father is why God is Jesus's God and Father.
He formed our spirit and He is the true God.

In Jesus only did God will all His fullness to dwell. The only begotten God.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, (God was the logos)
Jesus, as (He is the very same spirit as the Logos), is the beginning of the creation of God and the Firstborn of all creation. Besides having the preeminence in all things what sets Him apart from all of Gods children is all the fullness of the Deity of the Father lives in Him. A Son who is called mighty God. A Son as in the offspring of the Father. A child of the Father. Gods Firstborn. One who does have a beginning at some point in history before the world began. (His spirit as the Fathers Deity in Him was gifted) One God as its the Fathers Deity in Him not another and He and the Father are one just as the Son of Man testified not as you believe.

We disagree on how this is so NOT in what it declares about the Son.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,
The image of the invisible God.

In regard to the church.
I agree the Son is begotten of the Father alone before all ages.
I disagree that happened without a beginning.

As far as I am aware the Bible is silent on the origins of God, I'm probably wrong. I'm just speaking about my current knowledge. I think the safest assumption is that God has always existed and intact is the author of existence. "Without Him nothing has been made that has been made"
Jesus is fully God, and is one with God, as is the Holy Spirit.
As far as we know there was never a "time" when they did not exist.
It's probably something best accepted by faith and not given much more thought.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I prefer truth as given from above.
Jesus's Father is the ONLY true God.
You think this is equal?
Therefore God, YOUR GOD.....

The same reason God is our God and Father is why God is Jesus's God and Father.
He formed our spirit and He is the true God.

In Jesus only did God will all His fullness to dwell. The only begotten God.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, (God was the logos)
Jesus, as (He is the very same spirit as the Logos), is the beginning of the creation of God and the Firstborn of all creation. Besides having the preeminence in all things what sets Him apart from all of Gods children is all the fullness of the Deity of the Father lives in Him. A Son who is called mighty God. A Son as in the offspring of the Father. A child of the Father. Gods Firstborn. One who does have a beginning at some point in history before the world began. (His spirit as the Fathers Deity in Him was gifted) One God as its the Fathers Deity in Him not another and He and the Father are one just as the Son of Man testified not as you believe.

We disagree on how this is so NOT in what it declares about the Son.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,
The image of the invisible God.

In regard to the church.
I agree the Son is begotten of the Father alone before all ages.
I disagree that happened without a beginning.

Randy, please quote the verses where the Bible says that the Son "does have a beginning at some point in history before the world began."

When we all kneel before Jesus when he returns to judge us, we will have to answer for our thinking, feeling, and deciding about him. Since he is God from eternity (as the Greek of the Gospel of John says clearly, not a translation), who took on human flesh, he is fully human so that he dies as believers' Substitute and is fully God with the Father and the Spirit in order to rise from the dead for believers' new life. Then, he will usher believers into his new universe. I hope that you will be there through true faith in the God-man, Jesus.