Losing ones salvation

[Groovy]

But wouldn't you yourself be considered a 'heretical cult' sailor if you think that only you knows who the true church is?
Let me know what you think about this. I'd love to see your response.

Yes, Christianity is considered heretical or not the true church by OB's priest,
but if you agree with the kerygma/creed, then you must disagree with him.

Also, beware of committing false equivalence, which is (per google) "a logical fallacy where two things are incorrectly presented as being equivalent when they are not. This happens when people highlight similarities between two things while ignoring or downplaying their significant differences, creating a misleading impression of comparability. Essentially, it's an invalid comparison that suggests equal merit or validity where it doesn't exist."

An example is claiming that killing in self-defense is the same as committing murder.
Another example is claiming that believing in the NT God is no different than believing in Odin or Zeus.
A third example is viewing the invisible and universal church of Christ as being one's own denomination.

 

[GodsGrace]

He means well, he and I don't always agree but he does mean well

I understand Groovy.
No problem.

 

[Groovy]

The free-will debate is an endless eternal debate.
I'm with the 'limited free will' camp which also fits with the understanding of Theosis in the Orthodox Church which is a co-operative relationship with God.

So am I, with "limited" being limited to the "moral" choice of whether to seek salvation/cooperate with God's initiation--or not. (You will notice that I do not engage in playing endless verbal ping-pong with tulipists.)

 

[Groovy]

The fact that you think you can teach is where i get a little smile on your face due to your lack of self-awareness again.

The smile is due to the irony that you claim I claim to teach while citing me saying I cannot teach.
(And the frown is due to you ignoring my previous admission that I am merely a learner and sharer.
Perhaps my main gift is that of editing or connecting biblical dots in order to harmonize Scripture,
which I have been doing in the margins of my four main Bibles for 55 years.)

 

[Groovy]

Groovy is a bit scholarly....
Here's the understanding of an unscholarly person.....me (in green):

M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral condition called faith, which is manifested as seeking God’s righteousness or salvation, which in turn presumes sufficient human volition even for sinners to make them morally accountable.
The NT teaches that faith is necessary for salvation.
In order for this to be true...we must have the freedom to choose faith or not....
thus making us morally accountable to God for our decision.

F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are accountable and justly condemned when they do not repent and accept Christ’s atonement for their sins
Man can resist God, or not.....thus making him accountable, morally, to God.
This freedom will cause everyone to be JUSTLY saved or condemned.

W – Faith is almost synonymous with Will, but volition focuses on faith as cooperation with God (or not), and cooperating with God by accepting His grace is NOT meritorious or working to earn heaven or salvation by obeying moral laws.
Accepting God's grace is an action of our will....
Not a work, as some Reformists/Calvinists state.
We COOPERATE with God for our salvation.
This is not a work (meritorious).

Unconditionally electing only some is by definition showing favoritism, but of course tulipists do not admit it.
If God causes some to be saved and not other,,,by HIS CHOICE from before time,,,,
this would make God show favoritism, which the NT teaches is totally contrary to God.
(will supply verses IF needed).
I will add, of my own, that it would also make God an UNJUST God....
Calvinists hate to define the word JUSTICE.
Easy to understand why.

I speak in tongues; you interpret.
We make a great team!

 

[GodsGrace]

GG, take what Eli says with a cup of salt, because I am not sure what is in his coffee.
You and I think alike, so what he just said of me please feel free to reply as if he were critiquing you--
because I cannot teach him anything.

LOL
He didn't really say anything except that you "go to cafe's".
Here in Italy we call them bars and/or Pasticcierie.
Coffee can be had at either one and at a great price.
Cappuccio anyone?

 

[Groovy]

LOL
He didn't really say anything except that you "go to cafe's".
Here in Italy we call them bars and/or Pasticcierie.
Coffee can be had at either one and at a great price.
Cappuccio anyone?

You are in Italy? I love Italy!
My wife and I honeymooned by taking a whirlwind drive through Italy to Rome
after getting married while I was stationed near Augsburg Germany in 1973.
So much history and art, both religious and secular!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Ok but that also doesn't show that he does this for all does it? and it certainly doesn't show that he chooses to save some and others not

The bible would be 10 miles thick if it listed everyone God determined to save.

Look at it from another vantage point.
The bible says we are "adopted". Have you ever heard of a child that determines whether he will be adopted by a particular parent. That is absurd. The parent determines who he will adopt.

Consider: If it is the person that self-determines to believe salvificly then God's freedom to choose is subservient to man's supposed freedom to choose. God serves man in this circumstance which is an inferior position.

Consider: If you think one self-determines his salvation that by definition this is the belief in WORKS SALVATION for a WORK is defined as something you do to accomplish a purpose. Thus, you think God is indebted to you.
Job 35:7-8

I've said enough... I could go on and on and on ... you believe as you think best ... good discussion, thx

 

[JLB]

Look at it from another vantage point.
The bible says we are "adopted". Have you ever heard of a child that determines whether he will be adopted by a particular parent. That is absurd. The parent determines who he will adopt.

Yes the parent determines who they will adopt.

The Father has determined all are welcome and loved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Once the child is adopted, they can always refuse to obey and even run away.

There are conditions…

• For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
• The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Romans 8:12-17

 

[Eli1+]

Yes, Christianity is considered heretical or not the true church by OB's priest,
but if you agree with the kerygma/creed, then you must disagree with him.

I don't understand what any of this means. Try to speak without acronyms.

Also, beware of committing false equivalence, which is (per google) "a logical fallacy where two things are incorrectly presented as being equivalent when they are not. This happens when people highlight similarities between two things while ignoring or downplaying their significant differences, creating a misleading impression of comparability. Essentially, it's an invalid comparison that suggests equal merit or validity where it doesn't exist."

An example is claiming that killing in self-defense is the same as committing murder.
Another example is claiming that believing in the NT God is no different than believing in Odin or Zeus.
A third example is viewing the invisible and universal church of Christ as being one's own denomination.

Again, too unaware that many cultures, including mine, don't make a distincion between killing and murder.
It's you in the American legalistic culture who make this distinction.

When you kill another human being, even in self-defense it means that you crossed a line that you shouldn't cross.

Because of this mentality that you folks have in the West, we in Albania have a joke that goes like this:

You kill a man they call you a murderer.
You kill a few they call you a psychopath.
You kill a million or more, they worship you and built statues in your name.

So again, try to remove some of the blinder and realize that YOUR culture in not the WORLD culture.
You're just another guy with poor communication skills.

Learn from GodsGrace who has superb communication and teaching skills who explains Moral Free Will in a manner which is compatible with many cultures when they read it even with Google Translate.
She's not explaining it like we're soldiers in the barracks.

 

[Eli1+]

So am I, with "limited" being limited to the "moral" choice of whether to seek salvation/cooperate with God's initiation--or not. (You will notice that I do not engage in playing endless verbal ping-pong with tulipists.)

I'm glad that we agree on limited free-will but i'm not sure you realize that YOU also do a lot of ping-pong yourself which again brings a smile in my face when you don't realize this.

 

[Eli1+]

The smile is due to the irony that you claim I claim to teach while citing me saying I cannot teach.
(And the frown is due to you ignoring my previous admission that I am merely a learner and sharer.
Perhaps my main gift is that of editing or connecting biblical dots in order to harmonize Scripture,
which I have been doing in the margins of my four main Bibles for 55 years.)

I think that when you use the word "edyfying" you forget what i told you about having an excellent wine and adding vinegar to it.
That's how "edyfying" you are.

 

[Eli1+]

Also yes, going to a pasticherie for a ristretto is one of the small pleasures of life.

 

[Groovy]

I don't understand what any of this means. Try to speak without acronyms.

Again, too unaware that many cultures, including mine, don't make a distincion between killing and murder.
It's you in the American legalistic culture who make this distinction.

When you kill another human being, even in self-defense it means that you crossed a line that you shouldn't cross.

Because of this mentality that you folks have in the West, we in Albania have a joke that goes like this:

You kill a man they call you a murderer.
You kill a few they call you a psychopath.
You kill a million or more, they worship you and built statues in your name.

So again, try to remove some of the blinder and realize that YOUR culture in not the WORLD culture.
You're just another guy with poor communication skills.

Learn from GodsGrace who has superb communication and teaching skills who explains Moral Free Will in a manner which is compatible with many cultures when they read it even with Google Translate.
She's not explaining it like we're soldiers in the barracks.

OB is OrthodoxBeliever.
Not distinguishing between murder and killing murderers is false equivalence,
even per the OT Law, which I thought OBs believed in.
BTW, Charlie Kirk interviewed an OB priest named Fr. John Strickland today,
who confirmed your belief that "the liturgy" has nothing to do with "politics".
My "communication skills" are better than yours and agree with GG,
who is a good soldier of Christ, as you will come to understand.

 

[UVSaturated]

So a friend of mine believes one cannot lose their salvation because it is a gift from God not earned by our merit. I believe one can forfeit their salvation but not lose it after all how does one lose a gift when it was never theirs to lose to begin with? However another friend teaches one can lose their salvation.

So my question is this where in scripture does it state one can lose it and are there any examples of it in scripture?

Have you ever heard the phrase, do not take my name in vain? It has nothing to do with saying Godly Dam which is a fortress that holds back water. Taking God's name in vain is an attempt by one who tries to find salvation but does not put their entire heart into it. Jesus teaches on this subject through parables of sowing seeds.

Here's a breakdown of the parable:

• The sower: Represents someone sharing the word of God (e.g., a teacher, preacher, or even an individual sharing their faith).
  
  
• • The seeds: Symbolize the word of God or the teachings of the kingdom of heaven.
    
  • The different soils:
    • 
      
    • 
      
    • • Path (or wayside): Seeds that fall on the path are quickly snatched away by birds, representing those who hear the word but do not understand it, and it is taken away by the evil one.
        
      • Rocky ground: Seeds that sprout quickly but lack deep roots wither under the sun, symbolizing those who receive the word with joy but fall away when faced with trials or persecution.
        
      • Thorny ground: Seeds that sprout but are choked by thorns (representing worldly cares, riches, and desires), symbolizing those who hear the word but are distracted and their faith is unfruitful.
        
      • Good soil: Seeds that fall on good soil produce a bountiful harvest (30, 60, or 100 times what was sown), symbolizing those who hear the word, understand it, and bear fruit.
      Make your soil worthy by rejecting the worlds advice, seek guidance and understanding by prayer, also seek the Lord's wisdom and it shall be shown unto you, for it is written seek first the Kingdom Of Heaven and all things shall be given to you. You have to desire what the Kingdom of Heaven is first in all things to understand its nature for Jesus says it lives within you and also it surrounds you.

 

[Groovy]

Have you ever heard the phrase, do not take my name in vain? It has nothing to do with saying Godly Dam which is a fortress that holds back water. Taking God's name in vain is an attempt by one who tries to find salvation but does not put their entire heart into it. Jesus teaches on this subject through parables of sowing seeds.

Here's a breakdown of the parable:

• The sower: Represents someone sharing the word of God (e.g., a teacher, preacher, or even an individual sharing their faith).
  
  
• • The seeds: Symbolize the word of God or the teachings of the kingdom of heaven.
  • The different soils:
    • 
      
    • 
      
    • • Path (or wayside): Seeds that fall on the path are quickly snatched away by birds, representing those who hear the word but do not understand it, and it is taken away by the evil one.
      • Rocky ground: Seeds that sprout quickly but lack deep roots wither under the sun, symbolizing those who receive the word with joy but fall away when faced with trials or persecution.
      • Thorny ground: Seeds that sprout but are choked by thorns (representing worldly cares, riches, and desires), symbolizing those who hear the word but are distracted and their faith is unfruitful.
      • Good soil: Seeds that fall on good soil produce a bountiful harvest (30, 60, or 100 times what was sown), symbolizing those who hear the word, understand it, and bear fruit.
      Make your soil worthy by rejecting the worlds advice, seek guidance and understanding by prayer, also seek the Lord's wisdom and it shall be shown unto you, for it is written seek first the Kingdom Of Heaven and all things shall be given to you. You have to desire what the Kingdom of Heaven is first in all things to understand its nature for Jesus says it lives within you and also it surrounds you.

I doubly commend you UVS, first for realizing that the purpose of the parable about the soils is to prompt people to to be good soil, and second for understanding that the way to become good is via seeking/willing (Matthew 7:7, Hebrews 11:6).
The path represents atheists, such as the Pharisees in John 8:42-44.
The rocky soil could refer to those who claim to be Christians but leave the church and wind up being anti-Christ per 1 John 2:18-19.
The thorny soil is comparable to those who are chastised by Paul for not pursuing moral righteousness, such as in Ephesians 4:17-5:20, whose salvation is uncertain.
And the good soil represents those who persevere in learning God's Word and become mature or loving like Christ (Ephesians 2:10, 3:16-19 & 4:12-16).

 

[GodsGrace]

Have you ever heard the phrase, do not take my name in vain? It has nothing to do with saying Godly Dam which is a fortress that holds back water. Taking God's name in vain is an attempt by one who tries to find salvation but does not put their entire heart into it. Jesus teaches on this subject through parables of sowing seeds.

Here's a breakdown of the parable:

• The sower: Represents someone sharing the word of God (e.g., a teacher, preacher, or even an individual sharing their faith).
  
  
• • The seeds: Symbolize the word of God or the teachings of the kingdom of heaven.
  • The different soils:
    • 
      
    • 
      
    • • Path (or wayside): Seeds that fall on the path are quickly snatched away by birds, representing those who hear the word but do not understand it, and it is taken away by the evil one.
      • Rocky ground: Seeds that sprout quickly but lack deep roots wither under the sun, symbolizing those who receive the word with joy but fall away when faced with trials or persecution.

Hi UVSaturated
The seed that falls on rocky ground causes much discussion on these Forums.
Some will say that the person falls away because they were never saved to begin with.

But this is not what Jesus stated...
Jesus said that THEY BELIEVED FOR A WHILE....
To Believe...it to be saved....
So it is possible for one to be saved for a while and then fall away...
there are different reasons.

One of them can certainly be trials.
I've seen persons that were faced with a terrible trial which caused them to have doubts, either of God's existence or of His good nature.

I like to say that we should be prepared BEFORE anything happens that may cause such a reaction.
For instance,,,it's good to know that bad things happen even to "good" people...we are all subject to bad events, whatever they may be, and this has nothing to do with God, who is all-good (we could omnibenevolent although the omni's are really only 3).

In this way there would be no shock response when something happens, and the likelihood of abandoning God will be held to a minimum.

• • • • Thorny ground: Seeds that sprout but are choked by thorns (representing worldly cares, riches, and desires), symbolizing those who hear the word but are distracted and their faith is unfruitful.
      • Good soil: Seeds that fall on good soil produce a bountiful harvest (30, 60, or 100 times what was sown), symbolizing those who hear the word, understand it, and bear fruit.
      Make your soil worthy by rejecting the worlds advice, seek guidance and understanding by prayer, also seek the Lord's wisdom and it shall be shown unto you, for it is written seek first the Kingdom Of Heaven and all things shall be given to you. You have to desire what the Kingdom of Heaven is first in all things to understand its nature for Jesus says it lives within you and also it surrounds you.

Yes sir.
The Kingdom is within us.

Welcome to the Forum!