For those "not a sheep" . . . what next?

[savedbygrace57]

And what does "justly punished eternally" mean to you? What will happen, specifically, to this person that "can do nothing about it"?

2 thess 1:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[smaller]

I "sowed to the spirit" for years and never found it. I knocked and the door wasn't opened. I sought and didn't find.

I may only observe, what was it you expected to find?

There was a time when I was closest to god [not that I had a real connection, but was trying my absolute hardest, at that time] and when god could have shown himself real and "in my camp" [because I was in the right], he failed me.

I may only observe again, that failure is part of the promises of God. It can not be avoided.

I read through the bible for "reason", but many times found the unreasonable. Don't get me wrong, there are some good principles found therein.

Have looked at the conclusions of a myriad of sects and found their determinations very UNreasonable and UNreasoned.

I did set aside all of my own understandings because NONE of them 'worked.' Which meant that NONE of them were entirely accurate.

As for what I commented on about "the plan of salvation", I'm not sure if you know what my position is, but again, I don't want to make the mods uncomfortable with my thoughts. It isn't necessarily all about the crucifixion, but goes back in time.

I am only speculating, but would suspect that you would speak of the dire arrays of evil [that is assuredly DIRECTED by God] that is presented in the Old Testament?

IF that is what you speak of, I would hope that a factual discussion could ensue.

But of course that is not my call.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Deavonreye]

2 thess 1:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Yes, but in your words, what does "everlasting destruction" mean? What happens TO the person?

 

[Deavonreye]

I may only observe, what was it you expected to find?

I expected something outside of myself, that which couldn't be confused with my own personal thoughts. Something that wasn't . . . ordinary, such as reading a book of possible "answers".

I am only speculating, but would suspect that you would speak of the dire arrays of evil [that is assuredly DIRECTED by God] that is presented in the Old Testament?

IF that is what you speak of, I would hope that a factual discussion could ensue.

enjoy!

smaller

No, that isn't what I was speaking of, . . . however, there are plenty of OT evils and inconsistencies.

 

[smaller]

I expected something outside of myself, that which couldn't be confused with my own personal thoughts. Something that wasn't . . . ordinary, such as reading a book of possible "answers".

You mean like a personal miracle/sign or something?

No, that isn't what I was speaking of, . . . however, there are plenty of OT evils and inconsistencies.

You mentioned something going back.

s

 

[Bubba]

2 thess 1:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

A better translation from Youngs Literal is "who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength," and think, what was that generation that Jesus warn that destruction would come upon? 70A.D. and the destruction of Jerusalem.
Bubba

 

[Deavonreye]

You mean like a personal miracle/sign or something?

You mentioned something going back.

Perhaps something like a "personal sign". I didn't require something miraculous, but something above the natural, . . . since it WAS the supernatural that I was looking for.

Yes, the issue goes back to the very beginning of the book. Starts with the very story of Adam and Eve.

 

[savedbygrace57]

A better translation from Youngs Literal is "who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength," and think, what was that generation that Jesus warn that destruction would come upon? 70A.D. and the destruction of Jerusalem.
Bubba

You way off.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes, but in your words, what does "everlasting destruction" mean? What happens TO the person?

Who shall be punished

 

[Bubba]

You way off.

How far off am I? There is no Greek word that adequately describes the English word "eternal"or "everlasting" (aionios). This quote is from a honest man who actually believed in eternal punishment:

On the Word “Eternal”
In His book “God’s Methods with Man” the Rev. G. Campbell Morgan says this about the word “eternal”: “Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally. Let us remember however that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible.”
Bubba

 

[smaller]

Perhaps something like a "personal sign". I didn't require something miraculous, but something above the natural, . . . since it WAS the supernatural that I was looking for.

I would only say that the 'text' does deal with supernatural or unseen matters and does provide many interesting insights into the 'unseen.'

Not wanting to get too 'woo-woo' with the matters, but among the topics would be 'eternal matters' and 'love' and quite an array of 'intangibles,' physically speaking but definitely PERCEIVABLE along the lines laid out therein.

The simplest example I would provide would be the classic axiom to love our neighors as ourselves and then observe the very OPPOSITE and even VIOLENT resistance to that same matter. A multitude of 'signs' therefore stands openly observable to any who want to look at same.

Love LIKE ME or else is quite an entrenched hallmark within most christian associations. IMHO many of them have landed on the EXACT OPPOSITE intentions. This to me is a 'sign.' And quite a shame, really.

Yes, the issue goes back to the very beginning of the book. Starts with the very story of Adam and Eve.

I understand some of the difficulties when compared to 'archeological history.'

There are various options that seek to observe those matters, if that is what you mean?

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

bubba:

How far off am I?

Way off, this smells like the false teaching of universalism, that everybody will be saved. Am I right ?

I already know the depts of argument you want to go with a bunch of language rhetoric and i am not the one.

 

[Bubba]

bubba:



Way off, this smells like the false teaching of universalism, that everybody will be saved. Am I right ?

I already know the depts of argument you want to go with a bunch of language rhetoric and i am not the one.

In respect to 2 Thess. 1:9, no Universalism needs to be mention or language rhetoric, what does the literal Greek say and what was the imiminent destruction that was to occur?
Bubba

 

[Deavonreye]

Who shall be punished

I want to know HOW they are punished, specifically.

 

[Deavonreye]

The simplest example I would provide would be the classic axiom to love our neighors as ourselves and then observe the very OPPOSITE and even VIOLENT resistance to that same matter. A multitude of 'signs' therefore stands openly observable to any who want to look at same.

Love LIKE ME or else is quite an entrenched hallmark within most christian associations. IMHO many of them have landed on the EXACT OPPOSITE intentions. This to me is a 'sign.' And quite a shame, really.

I understand some of the difficulties when compared to 'archeological history.'

There are various options that seek to observe those matters, if that is what you mean?

s

This perceived "love", that says, "do it like me, or else [something bad happening to you] isn't what I would call a true love but more of a manipulation.

On the topic of "the beginning", it has to do with how the bible claims that "sins" must be paid for.

 

[smaller]

This perceived "love", that says, "do it like me, or else [something bad happening to you] isn't what I would call a true love but more of a manipulation.

I totally agree! Unfortunately most of 'christianity' in it's segmented forms has turned into a great array of DIVISIONS and BULLY AUTHORITARIANSIM's of ever sort imaginable, nearly ALL to the detriment of our 'neighbors' who do not believe 'like us.'

On the topic of "the beginning", it has to do with how the bible claims that "sins" must be paid for.

On that matter I would suspect that your imposition of what that means is off, maybe considerably so.

There is a very wide spectrum of understandings for this area, and MOST of it is utter imaginary nonsense.

s

 

[Deavonreye]

I totally agree! Unfortunately most of 'christianity' in it's segmented forms has turned into a great array of DIVISIONS and BULLY AUTHORITARIANSIM's of ever sort imaginable, nearly ALL to the detriment of our 'neighbors' who do not believe 'like us.'

There is a lot of authoritarianism on this board, I've noticed. Some of it seems VERY hostile and angry. There is a great divide of doctrine that one can see when they arrive at sites such as this, . . . each believing that THEY received the "true gospel message" via inspiration of the holy spirit, but their doctrine differs greatly from another . . . who also has the same holy spirit inspiration. It's enough evidence that it should throw up a red flag for someone who just steps back and looks at it outside of "doctrinal glasses", . . . as I did a long time ago.

On that matter I would suspect that your imposition of what that means is off, maybe considerably so.

There is a very wide spectrum of understandings for this area, and MOST of it is utter imaginary nonsense.

s

What I am talking about is how "sins are removed", the initial starting point, the system that was set up, . . . that ultimately wasn't good enough. . . hence a human sacrifice of a finite vessel. . . . flesh and bone. The spirit is only contained therein. And ultimately, it wasn't really anything that was truly sacrificed.

 

[savedbygrace57]

In respect to 2 Thess. 1:9, no Universalism needs to be mention or language rhetoric, what does the literal Greek say and what was the imiminent destruction that was to occur?
Bubba

Way off, this smells like the false teaching of universalism, that everybody will be saved. Am I right ?

I already know the depts of argument you want to go with a bunch of language rhetoric and i am not the one.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I want to know HOW they are punished, specifically.

with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Deavonreye]

with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Seriously??? Can you not answer a simple question? IN WHAT WAY are they PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION? Explain what you believe that to mean!!