[_ Old Earth _] Soft Tissue found in million year old fossils

[stovebolts]

A friend of mine gets a subscription from the Creation Museum in Ohio and I was reading a neat article on soft tissue that was found in T-Rex, which was said to have been extinct for 'millions' of years. Yet, this goes against all aspects of science since soft tissue should not exist in fossils that are 'millions' of year old.

Many Dino Fossils Could Have Soft Tissue Inside

Mary Schweitzer, the North Carolina State University paleontologist who announced the finding, said her team has now repeated that feat with more than a dozen other dinosaur specimens.
To make sense of the surprising discovery, scientists are beginning to rethink a long-standing model of how the fossilization process works.
Schweitzer gave an update of her team's progress unraveling this mystery last Friday at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, held this year in St. Louis, Missouri.
Traditional ideas of how fossils form do not allow for the preservation of soft, perishable organic tissues.
"We propose now that soft-tissue components of bone might persist in a lot more different animals, in a lot more ages and environments, than we once thought," Schweitzer said.

The dinosaur remains include blood cell-like structures containing nuclei, like those of birds today.
To demonstrate, Schweitzer showed two microscope-generated photographs side by side.
"One of these cells is 65 million years old, and one is about 9 months old. Can anyone tell me which is which?"

If Science currently says that soft tissue can't last 65 millions of years, but they can't explain how they are now finding so much soft tissue in fossils that are millions of years old, why are they going to go through such an extreme to try to figure this out based on this millions of years old model? Why not just stick with what they do know, which is soft tissue doesn't last millions of years old and as such, maybe these fossils aren't as old as they thought?

Oh, and not that I really understand this stuff, but it sounds pretty impressive lol!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/soft-tissue-fossilization

 

[theLords]

This was a great read Steve (:rolling) I mean Jeff, but your last link "answeringenesis" is not working

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I have heard of this before, but the article you are linking forgot a major detail. The tissue was completely fossilized and there were no blood cells. What was found was the fossilized skin and muscles.

When the specimen was given an MRI, they were able to completely rebuild the chest cavity of the animal. There was nothing actually left of the soft tissue, but there was the fossilized imprints of the organs left.

Here is a link to a youtube video on the dinosaur they found.

YouTube - What is a Dino Mummy?

The main reason why soft tissue dosen't last so long is because of soft tissue decay and scavengers. What has happened with this sample though, is that it was submerged in settement before decay or scavengers could get at it. Mummifying the animal then fossilizing it. Usually we only find bones that where fossilized post decay.

It should also be noted that finding "any" soft tissue at all is extremely rare and there are only a handful of cases in total. Most fossils we find are partial skeletons.

 

[Ashua]

At Warm Mineral Springs were I was doing archaeological field school, there was found an alleged 10,000 year old remains with intact brain matter.

The Windover site in Brevard County, Florida contained alleged 7,000 year old remains --91 of the discovered bodies had intact brain tissue --many of those had complete brains. Just so you guys know, archaeologists NEVER excavate an entire site. They excavate here and there and leave the rest to later generations to uncover. That is an unwritten rule of archaeology. Concerning known burial sites, federal law (The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act) dictates archaeologists are not allowed to go around exhuming graves of natives unless their descendants okay it. They very seldom do.... Even if the archaeologists accidentally uncover graves when they are looking for something else, that site gets shut down until the native tribes can be consulted. I believe the findings of Windover being shown on the News and the ensuing native outrage is actually what triggered this legislation.

Anyways, the point is there are many, many more potential bodies at that site with in tact tissue which we cannot touch.

Now, before someone jumps the gun I know the difference between millions of years and a few thousand, but.....
I don't know about you.... 7,000-10,000 years is still quite a while for untreated bodies to still contain brain matter.

 

[jasoncran]

At Warm Mineral Springs were I was doing archaeological field school, there was found an alleged 10,000 year old remains with intact brain matter.

The Windover site in Brevard County, Florida contained alleged 7,000 year old remains --91 of the discovered bodies had intact brain tissue --many of those had complete brains. Just so you guys know, archaeologists NEVER excavate an entire site. They excavate here and there and leave the rest to later generations to uncover. That is an unwritten rule of archaeology. Concerning known burial sites, federal law dictates archaeologists are not allowed to go around exhuming graves of natives unless their descendants okay it. They very seldom do....

I don't know about you, but 7,000-10,000 years is quite a while for untreated bodies to still contain brain matter.

you cant be that old that was near titusville. fl and i remember that made the news in the mid 80s and that was in off all thing mud which usually causes decay to speed up.

and those were belive the ais tribe as they lived in brevard,indian river and st.lucie and did roam the eastern coast.

 

[jasoncran]

not the ais but pre egyptian time period native americans

The Windover Bog People - an archaeological dig in Titusville Florida

 

[Ashua]

you cant be that old that was near titusville. fl and i remember that made the news in the mid 80s and that was in off all thing mud which usually causes decay to speed up.

and those were belive the ais tribe as they lived in brevard,indian river and st.lucie and did roam the eastern coast.

I'm 25 going on 35.

I don't "remember" it, but I learned about it in my archaeology course.

Your link broke btw.

Here is one:

http://www.nbbd.com/godo/history/windover/

 

[lordkalvan]

At Warm Mineral Springs were I was doing archaeological field school, there was found an alleged 10,000 year old remains with intact brain matter.

The Windover site in Brevard County, Florida contained alleged 7,000 year old remains --91 of the discovered bodies had intact brain tissue --many of those had complete brains...

The site you refer to had atypical preservative qualities because it was peat. Your reference to 'complete brains' seems to be incorrect as the Wiki article notes that:

'In late 1984 the archaeologists discovered that brain tissue had survived in many of the skulls. Lumps of greasy, brownish material was found in several skulls when they were opened for examination. Suspecting that this was brain tissue, the researchers sent the intact skulls for X-ray, CAT scans and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), which showed recognizable brain structures. In addition, cell structures were seen under a microscope.

By one account, an archaeologist accidentally discovered the brain tissue while analyzing a skull. The tissue was identified only after it fell to the ground.'

Source: Windover Archaeological Site - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ashua]

The site you refer to had atypical preservative qualities because it was peat. Your reference to 'complete brains' seems to be incorrect as the Wiki article notes that:

'In late 1984 the archaeologists discovered that brain tissue had survived in many of the skulls. Lumps of greasy, brownish material was found in several skulls when they were opened for examination. Suspecting that this was brain tissue, the researchers sent the intact skulls for X-ray, CAT scans and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), which showed recognizable brain structures. In addition, cell structures were seen under a microscope.

By one account, an archaeologist accidentally discovered the brain tissue while analyzing a skull. The tissue was identified only after it fell to the ground.'

Source: Windover Archaeological Site - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah I know peat is great for preservation, but it is extraordinarily good preservation in this case. The archaeologists were astonished --even for peat. Maybe it has something to do with being 3:30 A.M., but I don't understand how your post contradicts anything. My class touched on this site. in fact, the link Jason and I both posted ---for who knows what reason will not work by linking it.

go to Google

Type in

windover archaeology

It is the second result.

I saw a video documentary on it too. I actually saw a brain specimen. You can actually see the brain and the form and shape only it was discolored darkened... And shruken a little. But so well preserved you could see the lines of the brain. Sure not every specimen was "whole" but many were.

Wikipedia is a good source for general information but is highly unreliable in other ways. My college refuses to even accept wiki as a citation in formal papers.

anyways, check that site that wont link or find another and see for yourself.

second listing under that search result entitled:

Windover Bog People Archaeological Dig - Titusville Florida

 

[lordkalvan]

Yeah I know peat is great for preservation, but it is extraordinarily good preservation in this case. The archaeologists were astonished --even for peat. Maybe it has something to do with being 3:30 A.M., but I don't understand how your post contradicts anything....

Thanks for the links. I was maybe misunderstanding what you meant by 'complete brains' as I took it as implying that the brain matter was almost as well-preserved as that in a 'fresh' corpse. My apologies for this misunderstanding.

Yes, I know Wiki is not a wholly reliable source, but as I found the point supported by reports on other sites, I let the Wiki one stand for those as well (e.g. Windover Bog Site - What is Windover Bog).

It's also worth noting that there have been numerous discoveries of well-preserved bodies from Europen peat bogs, many in a better state of preservation than the Windover specimens. Grabaulle Man, for example, was so well-preserved that initially it was thought he was a local who had disappeared on his way back from the hostelry. When Tollund Man was discovered, Danish police thought he was a recent murder victim.

 

[stovebolts]

bummer the links aren't working
Just copy and paste the code below into your browser :help

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/soft-tissue-fossilization

Here is a search result from answersingenesis

http://www.answersingenesis.org/search/?q=soft+tissue&search=Go#q=soft+tissue&site=default_collection

and from.

http://creation.com/still-soft-and-stretchy

A: The arrow points to a tissue fragment that is still elastic. It beggars belief that elastic tissue like this could have lasted for 65 million years.
B: Another instance of ‘fresh appearance’ which similarly makes it hard to believe in the ‘millions of years’.
C: Regions of bone showing where the fibrous structure is still present, compared to most fossil bones which lack this structure. But these bones are claimed to be 65 million years old, yet they manage to retain this structure.

 

[SDJonathan]

yeah, sorry, this is a common misconception. This video explains what actually happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgpSrUWQplE

 

[stovebolts]

yeah, sorry, this is a common misconception. This video explains what actually happened:

YouTube - Dinosaur blood and polystrate trees debunked

Can you wrap the link in the "code" button? It's the # sign 3rd from the right in your editor. For some reason links are not working

 

[SDJonathan]

Can you wrap the link in the "code" button? It's the # sign 3rd from the right in your editor. For some reason links are not working

EDIT: Okay, now it seems to be working again.

 

[lordkalvan]

bummer the links aren't working
Just copy and paste the code below into your browser....

The photos you have shown are of recovered mineral fragments from within the fractured femur of the specimen dinosaur after they have been soaked in a weak acid solution to demineralize the preserved tissue. The implied suggestion in both the photos you have shown and the articles you have linked to is that the photos represent the tissue as recovered; quite simply, this is not the case:

T. Rex Soft Tissue Found Preserved

Interestingly, DNA of collagen from the sample shows a similarity to that from chickens, lending support to the understanding that modern birds are descended from dinosaurs (similar techniques showed mastodons' similarity to elephants).