Could The USA Be Babylon?

[digging]

What I have spent much time thinking about is the reason the call to get out of her was given. Recall that Israel was taken away into Babylon for many years and they were told to plant and build houses because they would be there a long time, but once the call was to return they needed to leave. So with this call notice it is connected to the 'one day' that her plagues finally come. So it seems to me this could also be a very real practical warning for us to prepare for the coming collapse of complex societies which many of us in the 1st world nations are totally unprepared for.

Revelation 18:4 NAS

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues ;

Revelation 18:8 NAS

"For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire ; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Digging

 

[Edward]

Could Revelation 18: 4 be a hint about the rapture?

 

[digging]

For myself I don't see it that way, but rather more as a real response like Lot getting out of the city, as well as the warning Jesus gave for the people to get out of Jerusalem before it was destroyed. However what is coming this time is going to be huge. Do some reading on collapse of past civilizations, there is a good book written by Jared Diamond called "Collapse how societies choose to fail or succeed". I'm not saying I fully understand what each of us will need to do, however if we are realistic and practical we have to admit our lives are totally dependent for our most basic needs on a complex and unstable system of industry.

When the time came for the Jews to be freed of Egypt they personally had to pack and walk out themselves. Are we willing to do the same IF needed? I think we need to be open minded and be willing to consider all possibilities, and one of them might be coping for a time in a collapsing society as we look to the return of Christ. A society who's main goal was the gratification of the flesh.

Digging

 

[Obadiah]

Man, I read the scriptures in the OP with an open mind as well as trying to see them as referring to the USA. I've gotta say that I just don't see this referring to the USA any more than it could have referred to several other nations and cities that have existed in history since the writing of Revelation or to some future city or nation. So much of what I have read in the discussion, honestly, seems to contain an awful lot of conjecture and wishful thinking to support one or other favorite point. Maybe I'm just ignorant.

 

[Mitspa]

Man, I read the scriptures in the OP with an open mind as well as trying to see them as referring to the USA. I've gotta say that I just don't see this referring to the USA any more than it could have referred to several other nations and cities that have existed in history since the writing of Revelation or to some future city or nation. So much of what I have read in the discussion, honestly, seems to contain an awful lot of conjecture and wishful thinking to support one or other favorite point. Maybe I'm just ignorant.

Ob, by the way I like your name! but do you not see that a ONE WORLD government and united world religion, are being sought by certain groups who have great power and great wealth? That babylon itselfs was a UNITED world that attempted to overcome the position of God by their own wisdom. Where is the seat of that NEW ONE WORLD? babylon is coming, and its already here in this country in many ways.

 

[Edward]

I read the conjecture with open mind and open heart also. One thing I can't wrap my mind around is that it is an analogy to being works with the hands and mind. Why wouldn't He just say works? He uses the term all through the Bible.

This isn't that I want it to be a literally written description of coming events, or to be talking specifically talking about my home country of the United States. Certainly not! It just reads that way to me.

 

[reba]

When in History was there not some one or some group that did not want to rule the world? as in one world government?

 

[Obadiah]

Ob, by the way I like your name! but do you not see that a ONE WORLD government and united world religion, are being sought by certain groups who have great power and great wealth? That babylon itselfs was a UNITED world that attempted to overcome the position of God by their own wisdom. Where is the seat of that NEW ONE WORLD? babylon is coming, and its already here in this country in many ways.

Thanks Mitspa.

Oh yes, I can see those things. But the United States hasn't accomplished setting up a world government yet, and may never accomplish it for all we know. Those in power may dream about it, but dreams and reality can be two very different things. As Reba, I also see in history that other governments have wanted to do the same and, without being able to see into the future, I just don't see why this prophesy is necessarily referring to the United States as opposed to those other governments throughout the last 2000 years. It COULD be, but I'm not personally convinced that it IS, that's all.

Let's not forget that every generation since the crucifixion of Jesus has thought they were seeing all the signs of the last days, yet it hasn't happened yet. I think the important message is to put effort into evangelizing as if these truly are the last days, but to also remember that we were told that despite the signs, none of us will actually know when that will be.

 

[Mitspa]

Thanks Mitspa.

Oh yes, I can see those things. But the United States hasn't accomplished setting up a world government yet, and may never accomplish it for all we know. Those in power may dream about it, but dreams and reality can be two very different things. As Reba, I also see in history that other governments have wanted to do the same and, without being able to see into the future, I just don't see why this prophesy is necessarily referring to the United States as opposed to those other governments throughout the last 2000 years. It COULD be, but I'm not personally convinced that it IS, that's all.

Let's not forget that every generation since the crucifixion of Jesus has thought they were seeing all the signs of the last days, yet it hasn't happened yet. I think the important message is to put effort into evangelizing as if these truly are the last days, but to also remember that we were told that despite the signs, none of us will actually know when that will be.

i for sure agree with you points!
But I think when we add the State of Israel into the mix of phophecy, also some others words given by the Lord such as the growing and increase of mans knowledge! I think one can see that this time, we live in is much different than some other times, where folks made errors in seeing the times and ages.

Now I am not and end-timer nor do I promote fear and such nonsense as some do! But I do say we should consider and watch as the Lord told us to do. Blessings upon all those who trust in Christ! - Mitspa

 

[Obadiah]

Interesting point about the increase in knowledge when we think about the internet and how a few seconds and a few keystrokes today can get us information that only a couple of decades ago would have required a trip to a library and hours of research (if we could find it at all). I heard a sermon a while back about the Tower of Babel saying (if I remember correctly) that the incident was actually about man's knowledge increasing dramatically to the point that the people were thinking they had become more knowledgeable than God. So God smacked them down a bit by confusing their languages.

That was how many centuries ago? Yet only just in this generation are we finally breaking through that worldwide language barrier in effective ways (ability to instantly communicate with anyone anywhere in the world for next to free, online translators to easily eliminate language barriers, etc.) All this is letting us share knowledge and increase our knowledge exponentially. The result? How many people have I heard say that God and religion is no longer needed "because we know better now"? Are we repeating the times leading up to the Tower of Babel? Can this lead to a one world government? Sure can! Is it? Maybe one day soon, but not yet today. (Just in my OPINION of course, and we all know what opinions are worth, don't we? )

 

[King James]

Look at it more like a corporate world takeover.

 

[Sinthesis]

Suppose a one world government faithfully represented and exercised the doctrines of Jesus Christ. Would you automatically brand it as from Satan? Run to the hills? Run for your lives?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted by reba,

When in History was there not some one or some group that did not want to rule the world? as in one world government?

This is true. Babylon has been around, even in the prophetic sense, for millennia. Dispensationalists see Babylon as something that is "just now" beginning to develop; or see Babylon as something that "will" develop in the future.


This is more of the same unscriptural nonsense which began with the Jesuit theologian Francisco Ribera, as part of the Catholic anti-reformation movement; and then further exaggerated by C.I. Scofield, John Darby, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, and other "deceitful workers disguised as ministers of righteousness":

2 Corinthians 11:13 "These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 11:15 So it is no wonder that his ministers also disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness."




But according to the Scriptures, "Babylon" is called 'Babylon' because it was the seed of Noah with whom God has a covenant:

Genesis 9:8 "And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
Genesis 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you."


It was with Noah and all of his sons, "and with your seed after you," that God had a covenant before He had a covenant with Abraham. Abraham was called "out of Babylon" (Ur of the Chaldeans), but it was Noah's children, God's own covenant people, who built the tower of Babel and later the city of Babylon.

What this tells us is that all religions are part of Babylon, and not just Christianity. 'Babylon' is religion without (not 'within') and is in rebellion against God. Babylon is RELIGIOUS. Remember, Satan operates within the sphere of "religion" - which is the location of 'his throne' (Greek - θρόνος = SEAT):

Revelation 2:13 "I know your [church in Pergamos] works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is."


Babylon is any and all who claim to know God (i.e. - are 'religious'), but who hate God's 'TRUTH' That includes orthodox Christians (ALL organized denominations and sects), the Muslims, the Hindus, and the Buddhists, even if the Buddhists claim that their ancestors are their Gods. It is all 'Babylon' because it is all in rebellion to the revealed word of God.


The "great harlot" rides on the beast and "ALL the world" wonders after the beast... and worships the dragon. Yes, this is first and primarily within, but it is also true of all of Noah's and Adam's seed. It is not just the Christian world. "All men" are in covenant with God through Adam and Noah, and "all men" will experience "ONE EVENT":

Revelation 13:3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

And,

Ecclesiastes 9:2 "All things come alike to all: there is ONE EVENT to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is ONE EVENT UNTO ALL: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead."


That "one event" is "an experience of evil" out of which we are all to be delivered in the end:

Ecclesiastes 1:13 "I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."


So all of organized religion, including mainstream Christianity, with doctrines blatantly contrary to the Words of God (i.e. - free will, end-time sensationalism, outward religious rituals, the satanic doctrine of 'eternal torment' - etc.) are in Babylon, and it is not limited just to Christianity.


Muslims actually consider Christ to be one of their most revered prophets, and they even admit that Christ was born of a virgin. But they do not consider Him to be the Son of God, and they certainly do not consider Christ to be superior to Mohammed.


But in the eyes of God, both the Muslim and the mainstream Christian religions are worshiping "another Jesus" with "another spirit" and "another gospel" - and they love and adore these idols of the heart, and they "well bear with them":

2 Corinthians 11:4 "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

Some Muslims do convert to Christianity and are assimilated into western society. Our secular western culture is no respecter of religions, and tends to corrupt both Christians and Muslims alike.




The fact that both religions are willing to kill one another (even though we 'Christians' believe our wars are 'legitimate' - as do Muslims) is proof that neither has any regard for the doctrines of Jesus Christ. His Words are "foolishness" to both religions.

Luke 6:27 "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you."

Matthew 26:52 "Then said Jesus unto him, Put your sword away: for all they that live by the sword shall die by the sword."


1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[Mitspa]

Suppose a one world government faithfully represented and exercised the doctrines of Jesus Christ. Would you automatically brand it as from Satan? Run to the hills? Run for your lives?

That would require that all men submit to Christ? That all walk according to the Spirit of God!

Do you really think that this is what we see?
And again I make the point that the Pharisees put a outward show of serving God, yet there heart was far from God. Even that when appeared in the Person of Jesus Christ, they sought how they might destroy Him! So just because one declares they honor God, does not mean anything for satan ALWAYS uses the mask of religion and comes in the name of God.
This is why he is called anti-christ, because he will have the appearance of christ and seek to claim those things that are His.
I believe we already see that spirit in the world, through much of what is called "christian" religion.

 

[King James]

That would require that all men submit to Christ? That all walk according to the Spirit of God!

Do you really think that this is what we see?
And again I make the point that the Pharisees put a outward show of serving God, yet there heart was far from God. Even that when appeared in the Person of Jesus Christ, they sought how they might destroy Him! So just because one declares they honor God, does not mean anything for satan ALWAYS uses the mask of religion and comes in the name of God.
This is why he is called anti-christ, because he will have the appearance of christ and seek to claim those things that are His.
I believe we already see that spirit in the world, through much of what is called "christian" religion.

Great post. Exodus 20:7 Do not take the name of the Lord in Vain. This is what will be done. To claim to be with God and do otherwise.

 

[abide]

I'm reading Revelation and got a little scare this morning. It's talking about end times and Babylon. The OT Babylon was a great city of commerce, but is no more. Read these two chapters with a mind of the USA and how we are and note the similarities.

Revelation 17: 1-18

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth./

Revelation 18: 1-24

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth./

The USA's presence is felt all over the world. We have joined with or conquered many other nations. We are in a state of serious moral decay. We have military presence in a lot of different nations. (Sits on many waters and seven mountains), It says Babylon will fall in one hour. Someone is going to nuke us off the map. The only candle that shines in these two chapters for us is 18: 4. Which could hint at rapture for us. What do you all think?

I have read statements from other religious groups who believe this too.

 

[Edward]

If, as some say, these words of John in Revelation are some analogy or parable meaning other than what it seems to describe to me...then perhaps someone would be so kind as to tell me what this mornings portion has told me. ;)

Revelation 21: 6-27

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits[d] thick.[e] 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[f] 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass. 22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

This is no analogy my friends. This is no parable. This was a vision. The entire book of Revelation is Johns vision. How could anyone think anything else of this? The last two chapters of Revelation bring it all into perspective. Will someone now tell me that it is part analogy and part literal? (HA!). Will you tell me that it is all analogy, then tell me what these verses above mean if it is not describing our new dwelling place with God, what does it mean? Perhaps you are comfortable with this portion being literal because it describes goodness, yet not the earlier portions that we've been discussing. Father in heaven let us not be deceived into believing lies, let us bear this cross of suffering in this world that we may walk these streets of gold with you, we will be your children and you will be our God. Amen.

 

[King James]

Edward, I also believe America is Babylon. Once this belief is upon you, it will never part from you. Why? Because it's true. It can't be shaken off. Many though will not see it this way. When it says Babylon will deceive all of the countries of the world, that also includes its own people.

 

[Edward]

You're right. I'm not shaken off from believing it. I'm trying to encouraging those who may read this read to take the Bible more literally. ;)

 

[reba]

More literally? Literally Babylon was a city