Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

[John Zain]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24 are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo” implies an authentic,
active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when
“pisteuo” is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11.
Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!
So, “believes in” above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers about
falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) ... and overcome sin.
But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

This is the reason for all of these MANY WARNINGS in the NT.

Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Matt 7:21-23 • Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 10:39 • He who loses his old sinful life for Jesus sake will find eternal life.
Matt 16:24-26 • Deny (lose) your old sinful life and follow Jesus to find eternal life.
Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive everyone, Father God will not forgive your sins.
John 3:36 • Believe what Jesus says, or incur God’s wrath and lose eternal life.
John 12:25 • He who hates his life in this world will keep his life for eternity.
Rom 2:7-9 • Wrath to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
Rom 8:13 • Follow the Spirit and put to death the works of the flesh to gain eternal life.
Rom 8:14 • As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Cor 6:9-10 • People committing these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 • Paul disciplined his body into subjection so he should not be disqualified.
1 Cor 13:5 • Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
1 Cor 15:2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to the word, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 7:10 • Godly sorrow leads Christians to repent, leading to salvation.
Gal 5:19-21 • Believers who practice such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 • Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 6:7-8 • Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption; sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Eph 5:3-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
Eph 5:25-27 • Jesus gave Himself for a Church which will be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12-13 • Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (for God is working in you).
Col 1:21-23 • Jesus reconciles those who continue in faith, and who hope in the gospel.
Col 3:5-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
1 Thes 5:8 • Put on the helmet of the hope of salvation.
1 Tim 5:11-12 • Some believers are condemned because they have cast off their first faith.
Heb 2:1-4 • How shall we escape, if we drift away and neglect so great a salvation?
Heb 3:8,15 • Do not harden your hearts as in the OT rebellion in the wilderness.
Heb 3:11 • God swore in His wrath that the disobedient Jews would not enter His rest.
Heb 3:12 • Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 • Partakers of Christ hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 3:17-19 • Those who sinned died in the wilderness, not entering in due to unbelief.
Heb 3:18-19 • It is unbelief that causes disobedience.
Heb 4:1 • Let us fear lest any of us seems to have come short of entering His rest.
Heb 4:3 • About the disobedient, God swore in His wrath, “They shall not enter My rest.”
Heb 4:6 • God’s chosen people did not enter in because of disobedience.
Heb 4:11 • Beware, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 • Those partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
Heb 10:26-27 • Believers who sin willfully can expect God’s fiery judgment.
Heb 10:29-31 • God will fearfully avenge believers who insult the Spirit of grace.
Heb 10:36-39 • Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Heb 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:8-9 • Believing, you will receive the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
2 Pet 1:10-11 • Be diligent to make your call and election sure, gaining the kingdom.
2 Pet 2:20-22 • A believer who returns to his sins is worse off than he was before.
1 Jn 2:3-5 • We are sure that we know God, if we keep His commandments.
Rev 2-3 • All 7 churches must repent and be overcomers to be: given the crown of life,
clothed in white garments, a pillar in the temple of God, not hurt by the second death, etc.
Rev 21:7-8 • People committing these sins will go into the lake of fire (the second death).
Rev 21:27 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.

 

[John Zain]

In other words i have to complet perfect that is impossible to get to heaven?.
That is one long list. Makes me just want to give up after reading that.

Ah, but it's the trying, the obedience, and the repenting (1 John 1:9)
... that is what it's all about ... You can do it!
You have the Holy Spirit to make you into an overcomer!

 

[ezra]

this is not worth making comment on

Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

my only comment is your way out in left field read the Bible

 

[gr8grace]

In other words i have to complet perfect that is impossible to get to heaven?. That is one long list. Makes me just want to give up after reading that.

What you read is religion and religions interpretation of these verses. If you believe, you need not worry.

IMO if you are a babe in Christ, I would not be on these forums. Go find your right pastor/teacher and a grace centered Church. Learn bible doctrine and come back when you have discernment to see that this OP is BS.

 

[Guest]

Rev 21:27 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.

But all my sins are already covered in the blood of Christ forever.

 

[Guest]

@John Zain what does it say to your heart that the Holy Spirit is the..

Author of Scripture
Comforter / Counselor / Advocate
Convicter of Sin
Seal
Guide
Indweller of Believers
Intercessor
Revealer / Spirit of Truth
Witness and Teacher

 

[By Grace]

John,

You seem to forget that sanctification is both progressive and positional.

The Christian is fully sanctified when he is born again because the righteousness of Christ is imputed (charged to his account) immediately. That is positional sanctification

Progressive sanctification is when we agree with what Paul laments in Romans 7, "Oh wretched man that I am, who shall rescue me from this body of sin and of death!"

 

[Danus]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24 are out of context with the NT. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) The verb “pisteuo” is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex. In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo” implies an authentic, active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when “pisteuo” is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages: John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11. Many who “believe” (pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples! So, “believes in” above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation. I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers about falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process. The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) ... and overcome sin. But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process! This is the reason for all of these MANY WARNINGS in the NT.

Yes, I think you have some good insight here. However, your playing loosely with the same strength of definition when you say "Born Again". Your title should be; "Not all people who claim to be born again Christian actually are." That would be more accurate to the situation to understanding of truly being saved, or truly believing. The critical difference is in the strength of definition used when we say faith or believe as you have rightly pointed out.

A stronger definition of faith, leans to the object of the definition, ie God. A weaker definition of faith relies on the subject of faith, ie the individual. See the difference?

If I say I have faith in Christ, or I believe in Christ, I could be pouring in any manner of strength of definition into those words, but the real test of my definition using those words is found in how I treat them further. If I say my trust is in Christ, then to the it's strongest definition it is in Christ and not in myself. In that case, the emphasis is on Christ and what He has done, is doing, or will do. BUT, if I have a weaker definition of "Trust" in Christ then the emphasis is on me, and what I have done, are doing, or will do. In that case, I should be concerned more with these things of myself and not Christ as much. I should then be very concerned with my actions and thoughts and such because I could very well fall away.

 

[Danus]

I'd like to add some more detail to this discussion starting with the lexicon "Pisteuo" that John pointed out. It's widely defined as such:
to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in of the thing believed, to credit, have confidence , in a moral or religious reference used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul, to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith, to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity, to be intrusted with a thing. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/pisteuo.html

However, as pointed out, it's also used in various strengths of definition. But we don't have to know the "Pisteuo" to understand the translation of 'believe". It should not be difficult to know, or have a sense, that the English word "believe" could have a variety of strength behind it depending on how it's treated. For example;
I believe in Santa Claus
I believe in Bigfoot
I believe I can fly
I believe in God
None of these statements lend any value of definition to the word "believe", because they have no context to lend strength of definition in terms of Subject-Object relationship of what being conveyed with the word "believe". However, everyone treats these statements with their own individual presumption of definition based on their own Subject-Object relationship. That's a mistake.

In philosophical terms "the subject" is the individual. This is pretty straight forward, but the Object is much more difficult to define, because it varies in strength of definition. So, when we use the word "believe", as in "I" (the subject) "believe" in (an object) we have failed to often define the object, or the object could be left undefined to others. Therefore to even say believe does not mean squat in general terms because it means different things to different people deepening on their strength of definition regarding the object.

When the object is "GOD", the strength of that object in relation to the subject of one believing, is found in the greater context of the subject, and what they mean when they say believe?

To the fullness of the subjects belief in God, to believe then later not believe, is to not believe. The emphasis there is on the "subjects" ability to believe in the first place. It rest fully on the subject.

This is why we have the age old debate in Christianity when it comes to faith in God and salvation. When the subjects definition of faith is in their own belief, then the strength of their faith rest in what can be known by them, and therefor faith is defined as the subject. On the other hand, When the subjects definition of faith is on the object then the strength of their faith rest on the object alone.

The easiest way to come to terms with this is to ask the question; Is God the Object of ones faith, or is God the Subject of ones faith?

It's not both! It's one or the other. If God is the subject of ones faith He can not be the object, because the subject is one believing or not. In that context there is no real faith, but rather a belief in ones ability to believe. But, if God is the object of ones faith then a belief in the object is in the object alone and so faith, or belief exist because the object exist.

 

[Deborah13]

work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Psalm 2:11
Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Strongs H3374 - fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety

My paraphrase would be " Serve the Lord with reverence and tremble with joy.

Mark 5:33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

This was the woman with the issue of blood. Why was she fearing and trembling, because she knew "what was done in her".


work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (knowing what was done in you)

So what was done in you by God and what continues to be done in you?

work out your on salvation with reverence and joy, knowing what was done in you.

God saved you, "by grace, through faith, not of works"

Persevere in that first faith that saved you. Believe that Jesus died on the cross for all your sin, He was buried, He arose so that you too will rise.

We did not shed our own blood for our salvation, nor our we the finisher of our faith....Jesus did it all.

If satan can get you looking at yourself (your works) your eyes will not be on Jesus. satan knows you are saved so the next best thing he can do is to getting your eyes off Jesus and get you depending on what you do. The only way to keep walking on the water (in the Spirit) is to keep our eyes on Jesus, DON'T LOOK DOWN, LOOK UP. He saved you He will complete you. If you don't believe me ask, Peter.

 

[John Zain]

@John Zain what does it say to your heart that the Holy Spirit is the..
Author of Scripture
Comforter / Counselor / Advocate
Convicter of Sin
Seal
Guide
Indweller of Believers
Intercessor
Revealer / Spirit of Truth
Witness and Teacher

None of these things is any guarantee of future salvation.
All of these things are to help us make it through all of sanctification.
The seal is simply a sign of ownership.

 

[John Zain]

I think it's entirely possible that some who think they are saved are not ...

... otherwise what are all of the NT warnings for?

I used to think they were to spur us on to further rewards.
But, some of these warnings are attached to salvation.
I.E. some of these warnings talk of a conditional salvation.
And I do not believe the Lord is a liar.

IMO, it really is all about ... "work out your salvation with fear and trembling".

But, there are plenty of promises that if you "do your best" to be obedient,
the Holy Spirit will see to it that you make it through to the end.

 

[John Zain]

John,
You seem to forget that sanctification is both progressive and positional.
The Christian is fully sanctified when he is born again because the righteousness of Christ is imputed (charged to his account) immediately. That is positional sanctification
Progressive sanctification is when we agree with what Paul laments in Romans 7,
"Oh wretched man that I am, who shall rescue me from this body of sin and of death!"

IMO, positional sanctification just means God has set you apart to be worked on.
Progressive sanctification is God working on you to move you towards holiness
and perfection, which is what Scripture says we're called to attain.

But, just how holy and how perfect do we need to progress to be?
IMO, it's in the TRYING to be obedient that counts!
Which is talking "heart attitude".

 

[Danus]

None of these things is any guarantee of future salvation.

Then where is anyone's "guarantee"? It's certainly not in themselves. If it is then they are doomed anyway. They might as well give up or 'walk away" because they are wasting their time trying to be the object of their own salvation and having their faith centered there rather then the true object which is Christ Jesus.

Anyone's guarantee of salvation is in Christ. (period) if Christ is the object of salvation that's it. Note that the Jews object was in the law, but even that points to Christ. That's the point of the term "falling away" in Hebrews. Object - subject and how that relates to salvation. ie, Christ or the law? It's both in Christ and the Law, not in just the law without Christ since Christ fulfills the law (Guaranteed).

 

[John Zain]

Yes, I think you have some good insight here. However, your playing loosely with the same strength of definition when you say "Born Again". Your title should be; "Not all people who claim to be born again Christian actually are." That would be more accurate to the situation to understanding of truly being saved, or truly believing. The critical difference is in the strength of definition used when we say faith or believe as you have rightly pointed out.

Okay, the revelation just becomes clearer and clearer!

You were born-again so the Holy Spirit would be inside of you until you die (John 14:16),
giving you every chance to follow Him, i.e. co-operate with Him,
so you actually could be (reasonably?) fully sanctified.

 

[John Zain]

None of these things is any guarantee of future salvation.

Then where is anyone's "guarantee"? It's certainly not in themselves. If it is then they are doomed anyway. They might as well give up or 'walk away" because they are wasting their time trying to be the object of their own salvation and having their faith centered there rather then the true object which is Christ Jesus.
Anyone's guarantee of salvation is in Christ. (period) if Christ is the object of salvation that's it. Note that the Jews object was in the law, but even that points to Christ. That's the point of the term "falling away" in Hebrews. Object - subject and how that relates to salvation. ie, Christ or the law? It's both in Christ and the Law, not in just the law without Christ since Christ fulfills the law (Guaranteed).

C'mon, if you wish to dig out guaranteed salvation verses, don't include these:
Author of Scripture
Comforter / Counselor / Advocate
Convicter of Sin
Seal
Guide
Indweller of Believers
Intercessor
Revealer / Spirit of Truth
Witness and Teacher

Everyone is forgetting ... Throughout the OT,
God insisted on man's co-operation with Him in accomplishing all of His goals on earth.
So, I see this continuing in the new covenant ... co-operation ... in our case, obedience.

 

[Danus]

One last thing, then I'll shut up. I just want to illustrate a point as thoroughly as possible and I have a movie clip to use.

In the movie "Adaptation" there are these twins, Charlie and Donald. Both are writers, and Charlie is tasked with adapting a book to a screenplay, but he's having a problem because the book is missing something. It's missing a proper narrative from the author; there is something she's holding back. So Donald wants to help Charlie dig a little deeper into the authors "meaning" trying to seek the deeper truth.

When the author find out the brothers have found the deeper truth, she and her lover attempt to kill them so that the deeper truth does not com out in the screen play. It would ruin the author. They end up chasing them into the swamp where they had brought them, originally planning to kill them.
As the brothers are in hiding in the swamp from their killers, they have a moment of clarity into the depth object subject love. Charlie says something to Donald, and Donald replies in the simplest way that changes Charlie forever.

[video=youtube;vfGtwkq5sC0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGtwkq5sC0[/video]

NOTICE: What Donald says about the girl back in high school. It's not about her loving him back. That's not love.

 

[Danus]

C'mon, if you wish to dig out guaranteed salvation verses, don't include these: Author of Scripture Comforter / Counselor / Advocate Convicter of Sin Seal Guide Indweller of Believers Intercessor Revealer / Spirit of Truth Witness and Teacher

I don't have to. My object of salvation is God and God is the guarantee. While it may be reflected in scripture and I can point it out, it's of no value to anyone if their object is not also in Christ.

 

[Guest]

C'mon, if you wish to dig out guaranteed salvation verses, don't include these:
Author of Scripture
Comforter / Counselor / Advocate
Convicter of Sin
Seal
Guide
Indweller of Believers
Intercessor
Revealer / Spirit of Truth
Witness and Teacher

Oh I have verses, but i can tell by your attitude that it wouldn't matter to you either way. Blessings.

 

[By Grace]

IMO, positional sanctification just means God has set you apart to be worked on.
Progressive sanctification is God working on you to move you towards holiness
and perfection, which is what Scripture says we're called to attain.

But, just how holy and how perfect do we need to progress to be?
IMO, it's in the TRYING to be obedient that counts!
Which is talking "heart attitude".[/B]

As long as we believe that perfection is unattainable this side of glory, we are in agreement