Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

[Guest]

Everyone is forgetting ... Throughout the OT,
God insisted on man's co-operation with Him in accomplishing all of His goals on earth.
So, I see this continuing in the new covenant ... co-operation ... in our case, obedience.

But you're also forgetting that in the OT, the Holy Spirit wasn't a seal upon men yet. Only in the NT is when the Holy Spirit becomes a seal until redemption because of what Jesus accomplished at the cross. Obeying is good and all, but we must understand that of the seal in the NT.

 

[John Zain]

But you're also forgetting that in the OT, the Holy Spirit wasn't a seal upon men yet.
Only in the NT is when the Holy Spirit becomes a seal until redemption
because of what Jesus accomplished at the cross.
Obeying is good and all, but we must understand that of the seal in the NT.

Some of us here are in agreement that God's seal upon the born-again believer
is only the seal of ownership, i.e. while being in the sanctification process ...
... not of any guaranteed salvation.

Eph 4:30 ... sealed for the day of redemption

Great, but who was Paul writing to?
Eph 1:1 ... to the faithful saints ... are all born-agains faithful?

Can born-agains be unsealed?
I.E. who are not faithful,
I.E. who do not co-operate with the Holy Spirit in the sanctification process, etc.

Maybe it's like David said, "Lord, please do not take your Spirit from me!"

We are warned to not grieve the Holy Spirit ... so, what happens when we do?

 

[Guest]

Some of us here are in agreement that God's seal upon the born-again believer
is only the seal of ownership, i.e. while being in the sanctification process ...
... not of any guaranteed salvation.

Well then, you're wrong brother. Anybody who accepts Jesus into their hearts and receives salvation has guaranteed salvation until death. What you're preaching is called Hitler doctrine, if you believe we lose salvation for not obeying, because nobody is perfect. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a person..http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=51487

 

[dadof10]

Born-again Christians should realize John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24 are out of context with the NT.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.†(John 3:16)

The verb “pisteuo†is used 98 times in John, and his usage is complex.
In the vast majority of instances, John’s usage of “pisteuo†implies an authentic,
active, abiding belief in Jesus … However, there are other instances when
“pisteuo†is used in a superficial, transitory manner, as shown in these passages:
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11.
Many who “believe†(pisteuo), eventually reject Jesus and are not truly disciples!
So, “believes in†above must mean: depends on, trusts, obeys … all the way to salvation.

I much prefer to trust the dozens of other passages, which warn believers about
falling away from the salvation process, i.e. the sanctification process.

The main reason for the Holy Spirit being inside of born-again Christians
is to help them walk in the Spirit (and not in the flesh) ... and overcome sin.
But God will not violate their free will … they must choose to
co-operate with the Holy Spirit during the sanctification process!

This is the reason for all of these MANY WARNINGS in the NT.

Matt 7:13-14 • Difficult is the narrow way leading to eternal life, and few find it.
Matt 7:21-23 • Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 10:39 • He who loses his old sinful life for Jesus sake will find eternal life.
Matt 16:24-26 • Deny (lose) your old sinful life and follow Jesus to find eternal life.
Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive everyone, Father God will not forgive your sins.
John 3:36 • Believe what Jesus says, or incur God’s wrath and lose eternal life.
John 12:25 • He who hates his life in this world will keep his life for eternity.
Rom 2:7-9 • Wrath to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
Rom 8:13 • Follow the Spirit and put to death the works of the flesh to gain eternal life.
Rom 8:14 • As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 Cor 6:9-10 • People committing these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 • Paul disciplined his body into subjection so he should not be disqualified.
1 Cor 13:5 • Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
1 Cor 15:2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to the word, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 7:10 • Godly sorrow leads Christians to repent, leading to salvation.
Gal 5:19-21 • Believers who practice such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 • Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 6:7-8 • Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption; sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Eph 5:3-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
Eph 5:25-27 • Jesus gave Himself for a Church which will be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12-13 • Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (for God is working in you).
Col 1:21-23 • Jesus reconciles those who continue in faith, and who hope in the gospel.
Col 3:5-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
1 Thes 5:8 • Put on the helmet of the hope of salvation.
1 Tim 5:11-12 • Some believers are condemned because they have cast off their first faith.
Heb 2:1-4 • How shall we escape, if we drift away and neglect so great a salvation?
Heb 3:8,15 • Do not harden your hearts as in the OT rebellion in the wilderness.
Heb 3:11 • God swore in His wrath that the disobedient Jews would not enter His rest.
Heb 3:12 • Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 • Partakers of Christ hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 3:17-19 • Those who sinned died in the wilderness, not entering in due to unbelief.
Heb 3:18-19 • It is unbelief that causes disobedience.
Heb 4:1 • Let us fear lest any of us seems to have come short of entering His rest.
Heb 4:3 • About the disobedient, God swore in His wrath, “They shall not enter My rest.â€
Heb 4:6 • God’s chosen people did not enter in because of disobedience.
Heb 4:11 • Beware, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 • Those partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
Heb 10:26-27 • Believers who sin willfully can expect God’s fiery judgment.
Heb 10:29-31 • God will fearfully avenge believers who insult the Spirit of grace.
Heb 10:36-39 • Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Heb 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:8-9 • Believing, you will receive the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
2 Pet 1:10-11 • Be diligent to make your call and election sure, gaining the kingdom.
2 Pet 2:20-22 • A believer who returns to his sins is worse off than he was before.
1 Jn 2:3-5 • We are sure that we know God, if we keep His commandments.
Rev 2-3 • All 7 churches must repent and be overcomers to be: given the crown of life,
clothed in white garments, a pillar in the temple of God, not hurt by the second death, etc.
Rev 21:7-8 • People committing these sins will go into the lake of fire (the second death).
Rev 21:27 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.

This quote is attributed to St. Augustine, St. Ignatius and others and is applicable to this topic.

"Work as if everything depends on you, and pray as if everything depends on God."

Why does it have to be either/or instead of both/and? Don't we all agree that "good deeds" are necessary for salvation, either they must accompany "saving faith" or the actual works themselves effect salvation?

When we debate atheists, we usually bring up Paschal's Wager, which states it makes more sense to live our lives in obedience to God than not. If there is a Heaven, we will ostensibly "make it", if there's not, we have lost NOTHING by our "obedience". Wouldn't the same principle apply here? If a person works as if his entire salvation depends upon it and it turns out God justifies by "faith alone", what has he lost? If, on the other hand, a person relies ONLY on his faith for salvation and it turns out God expects good deeds, his salvation may be in jeopardy. I am, of course, assuming faith in both cases.

So why not simply apply Paschal's Wager to the faith/works debate and just agree, for a change?

*Disclaimer* As I do really believe what I just wrote, it in no way will effect my future arguments. I will continue to rail against the "faith alone" position until my last dying breath because....well...I like to argue.

 

[Deborah13]

*Disclaimer* As I do really believe what I just wrote, it in no way will effect my future arguments. I will continue to rail against the "faith alone" position until my last dying breath because....well...I like to argue.

Luke 10:40-42

King James Version (KJV)

40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

I think both busy servers and the hang out with Jesus people will all be fine.
As long as the busy people don't think they are justifying themselves and condemn the non-busy people.
And the hang out with Jesus people's hearts are in the right place too, and don't condemn the busy people who's hearts in the right place.

 

[By Grace]

This quote is attributed to St. Augustine, St. Ignatius and others and is applicable to this topic. "Work as if everything depends on you, and pray as if everything depends on God."
You forgot to include Cardinal Spelman

Why does it have to be either/or instead of both/and?

Because that is the way God established it. Salvation is NOT a smorgasbord, or a Chinese menu where you pick some from column A, and others from column B

Don't we all agree that "good deeds" are necessary for salvation, either they must accompany "saving faith" or the actual works themselves effect salvation?

There a re ZERO "good works" that are sufficiently meritorious for salvation. For anyone to say that is to deny the extent and the efficacy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. To believe that any works are sufficiently meritorious is to open a new category of the benefits of this work or that work, and to make some works more popular than other works.

More to the point it makes salvation a "pay check" instead of a gift of unmerited grace from a benevolent and merciful God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life
​

When we debate atheists, we usually bring up Paschal's Wager, which states it makes more sense to live our lives in obedience to God than not.

Nothing wrong with that IF the apologist has a good handle on logic and apologetics.

If there is a Heaven, we will ostensibly "make it", if there's not, we have lost NOTHING by our "obedience". Wouldn't the same principle apply here?

Not really

If a person works as if his entire salvation depends upon it and it turns out God justifies by "faith alone", what has he lost? If, on the other hand, a person relies ONLY on his faith for salvation and it turns out God expects good deeds, his salvation may be in jeopardy. I am, of course, assuming faith in both cases.

No you are working off a logical fallacy called the equality of unequals. That invalidates your premise.

So why not simply apply Paschal's Wager to the faith/works debate and just agree, for a change? *Disclaimer* As I do really believe what I just wrote, it in no way will effect my future arguments. I will continue to rail against the "faith alone" position until my last dying breath because....well...I like to argue.

That is ALL you are doing, arguing, but your arguments are fallacious, and therefore bogus.

Rail away as long as you wish. You will never convince other Christians, nor will you convince God to change His mind about what He set in motion before the foundation of the Earth.

What you are doing is utterly ignoring anything said in Scripture, and that causes me to wonder about your commitment to Jesus Christ as well as a commitment to truth.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
​

 

[Danus]

When we debate atheists, we usually bring up Paschal's Wager, which states it makes more sense to live our lives in obedience to God than not. If there is a Heaven, we will ostensibly "make it", if there's not, we have lost NOTHING by our "obedience". Wouldn't the same principle apply here?

Look carefully at what you're saying in this statement here. 1. There may or may not be a heaven 2. I will act as hard as I can to blend in with the faithful so that if there is a heaven I'll make it. You're telling Atheist this?

FAITH, produces the Christian life. It produces obedience. It produces growth. It produces "good works", that is why salvation is by faith alone, and that is why faith in God takes place in the new-birth.

The OP States: Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process! But Jesus never said this. No where in the bible does it say this. This is just something the OP made up. Pulled it right out of thin air. In contrast, Christ says; "Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." Jesus is saying this to Nicodemus, who is a "poser", a Pharisee. He does not fully know that he is nothing but a put on. Christ is setting him straight. Christ is telling Nicodemus that he must put away his works and be changed from within. So emphatic was Jesus when He said this that he preferences the statement with TRULY, TRULY, or VERILY, VERILY in some translations. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! CHANGED!, CONVERTED. This is what you should be telling atheist.

John 3:1-20
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.â€
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.â€
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?†Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!â€
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.â€
9 “How can this be?†Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,†said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.â€
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

What the OP is pointing out, in a somewhat serendipitous way, is that not all people who say they believe, actually do believe. The OP defines them as some born again, which is a mistake because they are not born again.

 

[ezra]

Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

then mark GRACE out of the Bible along with mercy and love

 

[Deborah13]

“Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God

Many peoples even today, Jews, Muslims, Hindu, etc. see Jesus just the same way Nicodemus did. They do not recognize Him as the Savior and the only begotten Son of God and the Messiah, the Christ.
Nicodemus didn't even have this truth as head knowledge. We see that at one point only Peter had received that revelation, among the apostles.

Jesus didn't stop with the idea of heart knowledge nor do I see Him comparing Nicodemus religious works, although He does say that Nicodemus is Israel's teacher so he should be able to understand.
But Jesus goes on explaining that He would be lifted up as the bronze snake in the desert, for the healing of the people. Jesus prepares him so that when he sees Jesus lifted up he will understand who He is, the Healer, and will know who He is and that he must believe in Him, the Savior, the Messiah.
He also gives to him instruction that the invitation is open to all those who believe not just the Jew.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This is how one is born of the Spirit He is teaching Him.

This post was not directed at you Danus it is just my further thoughts on what you presented well. I see this forum more as a classroom than a debate with referees, although it is.

 

[John Zain]

If a person works as if his entire salvation depends upon it and it turns out God justifies by "faith alone", what has he lost? If, on the other hand, a person relies ONLY on his faith for salvation and it turns out God expects good deeds, his salvation may be in jeopardy.
I am, of course, assuming faith in both cases.

I like your argument, of course, but just wished to point out that
God expects OBEDIENCE to all of His commands!

Those who are not really striving for this,
i.e. not loving God with all of their everything, will not make it.

BTW, I'm finding more and more verses to be inserted into the OP.

 

[reba]

what are His commands?

 

[John Zain]

what are His commands?

My goodness! ... er, no ... Sorry, I don't have any!

I thought the NT was full of them.

Perhaps the toughest of all to swallow are those of Jesus which say,
Be holy (several verses) ... and ... Be perfect (several verses).

Kinda reminds one of the OT Law, which was IMPOSSIBLE to follow,
but ... we have the Holy Spirit to lead, guide, help, convict, teach, etc.
For us, it is NOT impossible to be obedient to His commands.

BTW, I'm finding more and more verses to be inserted into the OP.

 

[reba]

Well john I wanted to be sure I understood what you're saying... so here from the Lord Himself is a command...?

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

We can easily see the importance of :

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[dadof10]

Because that is the way God established it. Salvation is NOT a smorgasbord, or a Chinese menu where you pick some from column A, and others from column B


There a re ZERO "good works" that are sufficiently meritorious for salvation. For anyone to say that is to deny the extent and the efficacy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. To believe that any works are sufficiently meritorious is to open a new category of the benefits of this work or that work, and to make some works more popular than other works.

More to the point it makes salvation a "pay check" instead of a gift of unmerited grace from a benevolent and merciful God.

Where did I mention "merit" or earning salvation or anything else concerning working to earn a "pay check"? You are misunderstanding me.

Here are two threads where the OP is "Works".

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=44354&page=46

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48641&page=67

If you want to discuss "merit" or "works for wages", I would be more than happy to, over there. The point of my last post was simple. If you hold faith alone, why not ACT AS IF good deeds really get you to Heaven? What have you got to lose?

When we debate atheists, we usually bring up Paschal's Wager, which states it makes more sense to live our lives in obedience to God than not.

Nothing wrong with that IF the apologist has a good handle on logic and apologetics.

If there is a Heaven, we will ostensibly "make it", if there's not, we have lost NOTHING by our "obedience". Wouldn't the same principle apply here?

Not really

If a person works as if his entire salvation depends upon it and it turns out God justifies by "faith alone", what has he lost? If, on the other hand, a person relies ONLY on his faith for salvation and it turns out God expects good deeds, his salvation may be in jeopardy. I am, of course, assuming faith in both cases.

No you are working off a logical fallacy called the equality of unequals. That invalidates your premise.

I don't think you are understanding the parallel. Here is Pascals Wager in a nutshell:

1. "God is, or He is not"
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
4. You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

Here is the parallel I'm drawing:


1) Good deeds either effect salvation, or they do not.
2) A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3) According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
4) You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5) Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that good deeds effect salvation. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6) Wager, then, without hesitation that good deeds effect salvation. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

I can't see how anyone would disagree that "working as if it all depends on you" is the wisest course. Again, what have you got to lose?

So why not simply apply Paschal's Wager to the faith/works debate and just agree, for a change? *Disclaimer* As I do really believe what I just wrote, it in no way will effect my future arguments.I will continue to rail against the "faith alone" position until my last dying breath because....well...I like to argue.

That is ALL you are doing, arguing, but your arguments are fallacious, and therefore bogus.

Rail away as long as you wish. You will never convince other Christians, nor will you convince God to change His mind about what He set in motion before the foundation of the Earth.

What you are doing is utterly ignoring anything said in Scripture, and that causes me to wonder about your commitment to Jesus Christ as well as a commitment to truth.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.​

Take it easy, BG. It was a joke. That's why the smiley waving guy.

 

[By Grace]

Where did I mention "merit" or earning salvation or anything else concerning working to earn a "pay check"? You are misunderstanding me.

Here are two threads where the OP is "Works".

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=44354&page=46

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48641&page=67

If you want to discuss "merit" or "works for wages", I would be more than happy to, over there. The point of my last post was simple. If you hold faith alone, why not ACT AS IF good deeds really get you to Heaven? What have you got to lose?

Do you not recall making this statement?
Don't we all agree that "good deeds" are necessary for salvation, either they must accompany "saving faith" or the actual works themselves effect salvation?
Why do you suddenly say differently?<SNIP>

 

[dadof10]

When we debate atheists, we usually bring up Paschal's Wager, which states it makes more sense to live our lives in obedience to God than not. If there is a Heaven, we will ostensibly "make it", if there's not, we have lost NOTHING by our "obedience". Wouldn't the same principle apply here?

Look carefully at what you're saying in this statement here. 1. There may or may not be a heaven 2. I will act as hard as I can to blend in with the faithful so that if there is a heaven I'll make it. You're telling Atheist this?

No. I was in a hurry when I wrote it. I was giving a Cliff's Notes version of Pascal's Wager. I gave a more lucid explanation to By Grace above. The main point is that we are always debating whether "good deeds" effect salvation. IF WE HOLD SOLA-FIDE, what harm does it do to "work" as if all our salvation depends upon our good deeds? If God judges us based upon faith only, what possible harm could it do to live our FINITE lives in total obedience to Him? None, that I can think of. So, wouldn't that be the most logical course of action? What's the alternative, resting solely on our "faith"? Laziness and self-centeredness are not virtues.

FAITH, produces the Christian life. It produces obedience. It produces growth. It produces "good works", that is why salvation is by faith alone, and that is why faith in God takes place in the new-birth.

Do you do the right thing, the obedient thing, all the time in every aspect of your life? Do you ever sin? Do you think that the "Christian life", "obedience" and "growth" take any kind of effort?

The OP States: Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process! But Jesus never said this. No where in the bible does it say this.

Sure it does. Right next to the verse that says we are justified by faith alone...Wait a minute..."...NOT by faith alone...", that's right...

For the record, I don't think JLB's wording is very fluid. It seems to me that what he's trying to get at is that justification is a process, which I agree with.

This is just something the OP made up. Pulled it right out of thin air.

Like your take on Nicodemus, perhaps?

In contrast, Christ says; "Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." Jesus is saying this to Nicodemus, who is a "poser", a Pharisee. He does not fully know that he is nothing but a put on.

Scripture doesn't say this either. The simple fact that he was a Pharisee, doesn't mean he, personally, was a "put on". Nicodemus even said: "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him." Sounds like Nicodemus was a FOLLOWER of Jesus to me.

Christ is setting him straight. Christ is telling Nicodemus that he must put away his works and be changed from within.

Where does Jesus tell Nicodemus he must "put away his works"?

So emphatic was Jesus when He said this that he preferences the statement with TRULY, TRULY, or VERILY, VERILY in some translations. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! CHANGED!, CONVERTED. This is what you should be telling atheist.

Really? Have you ever debated with an atheist? If one says...I don't know...that the Bible is a fantasy, will the story of Nicodemus bring him around? Shouldn't we, as LOGICAL Christians, answer their points instead of preach to them?

John 3:1-20
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

What the OP is pointing out, in a somewhat serendipitous way, is that not all people who say they believe, actually do believe. The OP defines them as some born again, which is a mistake because they are not born again.

OK.

 

[dadof10]

Where did I mention "merit" or earning salvation or anything else concerning working to earn a "pay check"? You are misunderstanding me.

Here are two threads where the OP is "Works".

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=44354&page=46

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48641&page=67

If you want to discuss "merit" or "works for wages", I would be more than happy to, over there. The point of my last post was simple. If you hold faith alone, why not ACT AS IF good deeds really get you to Heaven? What have you got to lose?

Do you not recall making this statement?
Don't we all agree that "good deeds" are necessary for salvation, either they must accompany "saving faith" or the actual works themselves effect salvation?
Why do you suddenly say differently?<SNIP>

Yes, I do. Do you disagree that our good deeds "show" or "display" our "saving faith"? If you do (disagree, I mean), please explain James 2 to me.

 

[dadof10]

If a person works as if his entire salvation depends upon it and it turns out God justifies by "faith alone", what has he lost? If, on the other hand, a person relies ONLY on his faith for salvation and it turns out God expects good deeds, his salvation may be in jeopardy.
I am, of course, assuming faith in both cases.

I like your argument, of course, but just wished to point out that
God expects OBEDIENCE to all of His commands!

Those who are not really striving for this,
i.e. not loving God with all of their everything, will not make it.

BTW, I'm finding more and more verses to be inserted into the OP.

 

[berk60]

If we have received the gift of grace brought forth from Christ on the cross, then there in nothing that must be added to that for our salvation. We can not contribute to the price paid by Christ in order to enter Heaven. We were bought by His blood. Christ plus anything equals nothing.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We are under divine care.
Once saved, always saved.
And you should not judge whether one is saved or not.
Romans 14:4:
"To his own master he stands or falls.
And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."