Is Dispensationalism Darwinism?

[jasoncran]

uhm @JLB .

"if thine enemies ass go astray, though shall not fail to return it to him"

isn't that of the nature of the mercy of Christ? yes!

That would be loving your neighbor as the Law requires -

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,Matthew 5:43-44


Now if you can show from the law where it was said to Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you, then Jesus was teaching the Law of Moses.

If you can not show from the law of Moses, where it says Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you, then this is the Law of Christ and exceeds the Righteousness of the law of Moses.

I think what you will find in the law of Moses is - Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deuteronomy 19:21


JLB

uhm fine, I can do that but do remember that isreal was a theocracy and the eye for the eye thing was a measure of judgement. a judge was not show pity and not mete a sentence. unless you really think that we should let murderers go on that logic you have no grounds to say that was hate.

david made friends with former enemy nations that turned to that again. isreal fought against moab a lot and yet they did at time have peace with him and Solomon. how is that not reconciling? it takes two to be friends?

from the tanach. and well it may not be the law but it was there before JESUS came to the earth. if you don't like that then close and don't read the book of proverbs ever! and Solomon didn't just make these up. he merely penned them. god gave that to him! and some were around before was born.
proverbs 25:21.

If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink

now then unto moses, no note that quote above it the torah says to hate thine enemy then why does the BIBLE contradict itself? therefore the quote jesus said was some rabbi. likely either shemei or hillel. don't know but not moses.
exodus 23

4If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. 5If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

the torah contains chapter. therefore moses did teach men to love their enemies but this verse. that is a command of moses not ignore the enemy in plight but to do the opposite.

 

[evenifigoalone]

@questdriven If I have time in the next week, I will try and start a thread about the 613 commandments and the seemingly archaic and brutal laws that are hard to understand. This will force me to dig deeper into the commandments which I have been longing to do now for awhile anyways. So I'll reserve comments about those questions till then. I have already deviated a bit with this thread a bit, and there are maybe a couple more points I want to make about Darwinism and Dispensationalism before I call er quits.

Alright.

But do you plan on answering my question regarding animal sacrifices? I understand their purpose, but surely you cannot believe there is any need for them now that Jesus fulfilled that need by serving as our eternal sacrifice? And if we don't need to do them anymore, is this not the law changing according to new circumstances?

 

[JLB]

I have already provided you links in the past about the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus providing the proper interpretation of it, not the abolishment of it.

Brother as you well know, providing "links" to some commentary that you like, is not at all what is being asked of you.

You yourself know that you must show from the law the things that you say we are to "keep", and that every argument must be reduced to the law, if it is to be considered valid.

I ask you again, please show us from the Law of Moses the things that Jesus taught in Matthew 5.

Otherwise the following phrase is something other than the Law.
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If we are to believe that Jesus taught us to keep the Law of Moses by saying "THESE COMMANDMENTS" then THESE COMMANDMENTS need to be found in the Law of Moses, or else THESE COMMANDMENTS refers to a righteousness that exceeds the law of Moses, and is therefore the Law of Christ.


43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,Matthew 5:43-44


Now if you can show from the law where it was said to Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you, then Jesus was teaching the Law of Moses.

If you can not show from the law of Moses, where it says Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you, then this is the Law of Christ and exceeds the Righteousness of the law of Moses.

I think what you will find in the law of Moses is - Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deuteronomy 19:21


JLB

 

[JLB]

It does not make sense to obey God only when one is within the boundaries of Israel.

What doesn't make sense is for someone to teach Gentiles to change the Law of Moses and add to it a special set of rules that God never intended for gentiles to do.

Paul called this the commandments and doctrines of men.

The whole point of the Gospel is for all to be saved and walk with God and Love God and obey God and love their neighbor, WITHOUT THE OBSOLETE RULES AND REGULATIONS THE CAME FROM THE LAW OF MOSES.


JLB

 

[VirginShallConceive]

It does not make sense to obey God only when one is within the boundaries of Israel.

What doesn't make sense is for someone to teach Gentiles to change the Law of Moses and add to it a special set of rules that God never intended for gentiles to do.

Paul called this the commandments and doctrines of men.

The whole point of the Gospel is for all to be saved and walk with God and Love God and obey God and love their neighbor, WITHOUT THE OBSOLETE RULES AND REGULATIONS THE CAME FROM THE LAW OF MOSES.


JLB

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."-Matthew 5:17-19


Doesn't sound so obsolete to me. I guess it all just depends on which Bible verses one decides to pick and choose from.

 

[JLB]

It does not make sense to obey God only when one is within the boundaries of Israel.

What doesn't make sense is for someone to teach Gentiles to change the Law of Moses and add to it a special set of rules that God never intended for gentiles to do.

Paul called this the commandments and doctrines of men.

The whole point of the Gospel is for all to be saved and walk with God and Love God and obey God and love their neighbor, WITHOUT THE OBSOLETE RULES AND REGULATIONS THE CAME FROM THE LAW OF MOSES.


JLB

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."-Matthew 5:17-19


Doesn't sound so obsolete to me. I guess it all just depends on which Bible verses one decides to pick and choose from.

Originally Posted by Ryan
Uhm, where did Jesus teach every Sabbath?
Mountain tops, wheat fields, peoples homes.

He went to the synagogues to proclaim He was Messiah from the scriptures and cast the devil out of the people.

I don't see Him going there to disciple His followers.

Originally Posted by Ryan
One can still observe and celebrate the Feast days without a sacrifice. Yes it was a commandment to gather where the Lord was, but would God be angry with someone who had health problems, financial strain, etc, that would prevent them from doing so.
No where in the Law of Moses is there any rule or commandment that states Gentiles are to keep the law of Moses while in their own country.

To try and teach Christians living in Seattle Washington, to keep the feast of unleavened bread because that is what is commanded in the Law of Moses is NOT TRUE.

To try and teach Christians living in Manila Philippines to keep the feast of Tabernacles because that is what is commanded in God's word, is NOT TRUE.


Originally Posted by Ryan
but we are still called to gather together and celebrate the Feasts and Sabbath's together.
Where does it say that?



Originally Posted by Ryan
As I explained above, I like and desire blessings. Those commandments you highlighted above is if you love God, you will keep his commandments
There are no such commandments for Gentiles, living outside of Israel.

I have asked you to show from the law where we as Gentiles are to "keep the feast's" in own own country.

If you can then it is a commandment from God.

If you can not it is a commandment from men.



Originally Posted by Ryan
The law is there so we can receive blessings Deuteronomy 11:26-27. I like blessings, how about you?
Not keeping all the Law of Moses brings a curse. I don't like curses, how about you.


Here is some commandments Jesus taught -

21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22


Please show from the Law where it is taught that if you say you fool, you will be in danger of hell fire.

Not one jot or tittle can be added or taken away.

or this -

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,


Show from the law of Moses where it states this, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you.

as compared to -

Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.Deuteronomy 19:21


JLB

 

[JLB]

You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, = Law of Moses = Righteousness of the Pharisee's [Righteousness of the Law].

But I say to you [Law of Christ] that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. = Righteousness that exceeds the Law.

[Flows from the Divine nature of Christ].


"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]


"Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]



"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]


38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. Law of Christ [Exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisee's]


43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' Law of Moses [Righteousness of the Pharisee's]

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Law of Christ [Exceeds the Righteousness of the Pharisee's]


Attention all Law Keepers!

All of the places in Matthew 5 where Jesus said - But I say to...

Are the following Commandments found in the law of Moses?


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

I guess when the Hebrews heard the words. forgive they went what does that mean? they also didn't know love. Abraham and all the Hebrews before the lord came didn't really know nor posses any ability to love children, their wives, and also how to reconcile.

im thinking about Jacob and esau. esau hated Jacob and yet its recorded that both buried their dad and also they esau didn't kill Jacob when we passed through edom.

 

[Ryan]

Panspermia is probably at the top of the whacked out theories going around. Still wanting have nothing to do with a God that spoke the universe into creation, they have gone from the absurd, to the most absurd to explain creation because it would absolutely kill them that there had to of been a Creator who did these things. So to completely ignore the evidence as seen in science of a master designer, they concocted a theory based on absolutely no evidence of seeds of life floating around the universe, then one of the seeds fell upon the earth and life sprouted forth. They have even gone as far to say alien life form came and planted these seeds http://www.panspermia-theory.com/

So because there is little to no evidence of evolution, Punctuated Equilibrium, or other theories, scientists have thrown this garbage out to seduce the unsuspecting masses of this. What also needs to point out is God has explained creation to us and how he did it because he was there, yet scientists who all admit they weren't there billions of years ago, want us to believe a theory that have no proof of it occuring. They will do and say anything to completely deny the obvious. Seems backwards to me. Anyways, look at it from a theological point of view now

How often do we look at our bible's and deny the obvious? It can be shown in the Septuagint, the bible the Rabbi's translated into Greek 200 years before Christ the use of the word "ekklesia" or "church" was used many times prior to the common conception that the "church" was born in Acts 2. And it was always in reference to the assemply of Israel. Find a Covenant God takes a people as his own calling it other then Israel, please help me find it cause I can't seem to find the right passages. That would be denying the evidence. One can show you Jesus was a completely Torah observant Jew, and exhorted all believers to walk in his footsteps, and Paul saying that he did the same thing and continued to exhort believers to walk as he did cause he followed Christ, yet we don't do the same or are taught to do the same? That is completely denying the obvious evidence. Or, some Dispy's say there is a law for Jew and a law for Gentile.

Dispensationalism teaches God dealt with people differently throughout history, but that is contrary to the principle of weights and measures. The Lord told Israel in Deuteronomy 25:13, “You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a large and a small” Leviticus 19:36. He prohibited Israel from having differing weights and measures, or different standards. In fact, He said that “There shall be one law for the citizen and for the stranger who dwells among you” Exodus 12:49. All of the people who lived within the borders of Israel were to be judged by the same set of instruction: the Torah. Proverbs 20:10 states quite, “Differing weights and differing measures, both of them are abominable to the LORD.” Have these basic premises changed? Does God change His mind about holding all those who are within His boundaries to the same standard (Malachi 3:6)?

 

[evenifigoalone]

I'll ask once more that you answer my question, as it is directly related to the topic of this thread.
What do you make of animal sacrifices? Do you agree that Jesus was our eternal sacrifice? And if this is so, would it not entail that Jesus eternally fulfilled that part of the law, at least?

 

[JLB]

“There shall be one law for the citizen and for the stranger who dwells among youâ€

dwells among you being the key phrase.

All of the people who lived within the borders of Israel were to be judged by the same set of instruction: the Torah.

JLB

 

[Ryan]

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION] No I haven't forgot your question. If the blood of bulls and goats took away the sins, then Jesus's death was completely unncessary wasn't it?

Hebrews 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

This is usually intepreted as know with the death and resurrection of Jesus, there is no more need for animal sacrifices, but again bulls and goats could not take away sin because if it did, Jesus died needlessly. This passage is saying that right from Adam and Eve, to the present, from the beginning to the end, we were always covered by the blood of Jesus. When God said in Genesis 3:15 the enmity, he said it would be done and his word is as good as gold. He said he would do it, he did it because he said it would happen, So Adam and Eve had the same blood of Jesus covering them as we do. Forgiveness was always present before the tabernacle, Moses proclaimed it in Exodus 34:7 before the tabernacle was operational.

The majority of animal sacrifices were called "qorbanot" and in it's literal sense means to draw near. That was the method of worship God ordained, so it is kind of difficult to think of it in 20th century thought, but that was God's norm and standard of practice for those who worshipped the true God. We have to remember that God has not changed, he is the 3 times Holy One, and trying to come into his presence is dangerous business. I believe the sacrifices were a means to allow the worshipper to come into the presence of God safely, and feeling the presence of the Father.

 

[Ryan]

“There shall be one law for the citizen and for the stranger who dwells among you”

dwells among you being the key phrase.

All of the people who lived within the borders of Israel were to be judged by the same set of instruction: the Torah.

JLB

So the ones in the Diaspora didn't have any obligations or responsibilities until they came into the physical land?

1 Kings 8:41-44 41 “Also concerning the foreigner who is not of Your people Israel, when he comes from a far country for Your name’s sake 42 (for they will hear of Your great name and Your mighty hand, and of Your outstretched arm); when he comes and prays toward this house, 43 hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to You, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Your name, to fear You, as do Your people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I have built is called by Your name.

Hey??? Maybe this was the idea of the Sunday worshipper, pew kicker that only is holy on Sunday's and the rest of the week is a no good for nothing sloth. That must be it. Come to church and be good, but when you back to where you came from, it is PARTY!!! But the next trip you make, get your holy face on. Doesn't that sound familiar? Makes sense for those foreigners who believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at the time. Makes sense.

 

[evenifigoalone]

That explanation makes no sense, to be perfectly honest. Kill an animal to be close to God? Huh???? That can't be all there is to it.
Is this a standard belief among Messianic Jews?

What does everyone else here have to say in regard to this?

 

[evenifigoalone]

And that also doesn't answer my question about why you don't seem to think that we should practice sacrifices today.

Also, if sacrifices were not made in order to cover sin, then why were there trespass offerings for small offenses and the like?

 

[Ryan]

קרבּן קרבּן
qorbân qûrbân
kor-bawn', koor-bawn'
From H7126; something brought near the altar, that is, a sacrificial present

 

[Ryan]

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=54022

 

[evenifigoalone]

That doesn't really explain WHY sacrifices were used, though. Just because its an act of worship, honestly, doesn't quite fit.
Now if you're talking about being brought close to God by the temporary forgiveness of sins, that fits.

 

[evenifigoalone]

And what about the holy of holies and all that? Why does the gospel make special mention of the veil being torn?

 

[jasoncran]

That explanation makes no sense, to be perfectly honest. Kill an animal to be close to God? Huh???? That can't be all there is to it.
Is this a standard belief among Messianic Jews?

What does everyone else here have to say in regard to this?

Ryan errs in that the modern jews believe that one could atone with God with either, the animals blood , prayer if the temple and priests weren't faitful(diaspora). the way to do torah in the later was the tzaddik.but he is right that the word sacrifice means to draw near. its like us in church when we approach God we cleanse ourselves by repenting then worshipping. the temple altar had to be purged of sins of the priests and the alter purified as well.