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Is Dispensationalism Darwinism?

Ryan

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Quote from Bradford Scott:

"Once there was an amoeba that was struck with lightning floating in a primordial soup pond. It soon began to evolve and grew fins, and eventually a tail and gill sluts. It continued to change, and after a while the appendages fell off and began to develop through many different ages, a primate man eventually evolving into current man. Smart, intellectual and developed."

Compare with:

"In the beginning was the primitive Jew with all his Sabbath's and Festivals and dietary laws. But soon the Sabbath's fell off and was replaced with Sundays, then the Festivals evolved into Easter and Christmas, and the dietary laws fell off and were replaced with ham and crab sandwiches, man began to evolve into Catholicism and Protestantism and we now have Christian man."

Why don't we accept the evolutionary process for creation, yet we accept the theory of evolution in our theology? Is it any coincidence the teachings of Darby and such came on the scene the same time as the theory of evolution?
 
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theLords

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Oh, these threads, it's like Christians are engaged in a 2,000 year long debate...but I'll take a stab at it Ryan ;)

Let's start with Acts: Peter and Paul and the "why lay on the Gentiles burdens which we and our forefathers couldn't bear."

But, Easter, although badly named is the single most greatest event of all time and space--the death and resurrection of the Lord for the payment of our sins.
 

Ryan

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1 Corinthians 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

God uses the natural things to teach us the spiritual meanings as he first revealed them in Genesis.

Genesis 1:12 The earth brought forth grass, plants each yielding its own kind of seed, and trees each producing its own kind of seed-bearing fruit; and God saw that it was good.

We have apples producing apples, oranges producing oranges, horses making other horses. No where do we see the evolutionary process at work in nature, so why have we accepted the evolutionary process in our doctrine?
 

Eugene

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Why don't we accept the evolutionary process for creation, yet we accept the theory of evolution in our theology? Is it any coincidence the teachings of Darby and such came on the scene the same time as the theory of evolution?
Possibly because one is the word of God and the other didn't know God if I'm understanding you? :biggrinunno
 

Ryan

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Oh, these threads, it's like Christians are engaged in a 2,000 year long debate...but I'll take a stab at it Ryan ;)

Let's start with Acts: Peter and Paul and the "why lay on the Gentiles burdens which we and our forefathers couldn't bear."

But, Easter, although badly named is the single most greatest event of all time and space--the death and resurrection of the Lord for the payment of our sins.
If a bible mysteriously fell on an island, and the person who found the bible picked it up and read it from front to back. With absolutely no knowledge of anything else except the Word of God. What would he be celebrating? Passover or Easter? Christmas or Sukkot? Saturday Sabbath or the Sunday Sabbath?
 

theLords

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1 Corinthians 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

God uses the natural things to teach us the spiritual meanings as he first revealed them in Genesis.

I agree completely. We see the Mosiac Law (strictly natural) move to a spiritual law, Christ. He kept the law perfectly in our places knowing we couldn't. He stood in our places both naturally and spiritually.

Genesis 1:12 The earth brought forth grass, plants each yielding its own kind of seed, and trees each producing its own kind of seed-bearing fruit; and God saw that it was good.

We have apples producing apples, oranges producing oranges, horses making other horses. No where do we see the evolutionary process at work in nature, so why have we accepted the evolutionary process in our doctrine?

I don't think we've accepted it. What we have is a breaking of the veil over mankind since the dawn of time. The Jews (as a whole) didn't get to witness the other side of the veil, only a few truly did, like Abraham. Like Graham Cooke likes to say, "We went from a visitation presence of God to a habitation presence of God." After Christ, we have full complete access to God in Christ alone, not in purification of our bodies, our diets, our clothes, or feasts and celebrations. Christians still keep the "day of rest" only they don't observe from Friday to Saturday night. Why? Because there is spiritual blessings in keeping it. It's all a matter of perspective.

I am curious, though, how do you keep the law? Do you subscribe to all 613 commandments as Biblically valid? Which ones do you observe and which ones do you refrain from observing and how do you decide?
 

Ryan

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Why don't we accept the evolutionary process for creation, yet we accept the theory of evolution in our theology? Is it any coincidence the teachings of Darby and such came on the scene the same time as the theory of evolution?
Possibly because one is the word of God and the other didn't know God if I'm understanding you? :biggrinunno
I am saying the scriptures do not teach at all one long line of linear thinking or evolution. God operates his nature in cycles, as he operates the spiritual in cycles. Darwinism is one long line of evolution and progression. That thinking is not scriptural, and that is not what we see in nature.

Psalms 23:3 "paths of righteousness" is not properly translated. The word is "agol agol" meaning circular or cycles. It should actually be "cycles of righteousness". God devised a plan and way of life from the very beginning, and it operated around his cycles both in nature and spiritually, but we have forgotten those cycles because everything was nailed to the cross and we now have Christian Man and NT believer. That is not what the bible teaches.
 

Ryan

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1 Corinthians 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

God uses the natural things to teach us the spiritual meanings as he first revealed them in Genesis.

I agree completely. We see the Mosiac Law (strictly natural) move to a spiritual law, Christ. He kept the law perfectly in our places knowing we couldn't. He stood in our places both naturally and spiritually.
The bible says though Israel was born of the same Spirit and the same seed of Jesus. Even back in Moses day.

1 Corinthians 10:2-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.


Genesis 1:12 The earth brought forth grass, plants each yielding its own kind of seed, and trees each producing its own kind of seed-bearing fruit; and God saw that it was good.

We have apples producing apples, oranges producing oranges, horses making other horses. No where do we see the evolutionary process at work in nature, so why have we accepted the evolutionary process in our doctrine?

I don't think we've accepted it. What we have is a breaking of the veil over mankind since the dawn of time. The Jews (as a whole) didn't get to witness the other side of the veil, only a few truly did, like Abraham. Like Graham Cooke likes to say, "We went from a visitation presence of God to a habitation presence of God." After Christ, we have full complete access to God in Christ alone, not in purification of our bodies, our diets, our clothes, or feasts and celebrations. Christians still keep the "day of rest" only they don't observe from Friday to Saturday night. Why? Because there is spiritual blessings in keeping it. It's all a matter of perspective.
That exact statement is Darwinism at its best. It is not biblical and it is not revealed in nature.

I am curious, though, how do you keep the law? Do you subscribe to all 613 commandments as Biblically valid? Which ones do you observe and which ones do you refrain from observing and how do you decide?
I keep the Feasts, Sabbaths, dietary stuff, commandments on our doorframes. Love my neighbour, witness to friends and co-workers, try not to bear a grudge, etc, etc. Anything else you wanna know?
 

theLords

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The bible says though Israel was born of the same Spirit and the same seed of Jesus. Even back in Moses day.

1 Corinthians 10:2-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Sure, they just didn't know it and many still don't and continue to reject the Rock (although Christians slaughtering Jews doesn't help bring about acceptance).

That exact statement is Darwinism at its best. It is not biblical and it is not revealed in nature.
I don't agree. Evolution is basically -- "something" "randomly" "adapting" "improvement". What I'm saying is that it was "there" all along, but because of sin a veil was placed over our eyes, in Christ that veil is broken and we can truly see. It's passing from "glory to glory." We're called to live "His kingdom on earth" and "live in the spirit." If Christ fulfilled the law for me obtaining righteousness, why then would he ask me to continue to fulfill my own righteousness? Like Paul saying to me, "Who has bewitched you? Why go from Christ crucified to Law?"

I keep the Feasts, Sabbaths, dietary stuff, commandments on our doorframes. Love my neighbour, witness to friends and co-workers, try not to bear a grudge, etc, etc. Anything else you wanna know?
Would you elaborate? I've often heard it asked of Christians, "How do you know which commands to keep?" And, I've been thinking long and hard about it for some time, which is why I'm interested in how you figure out what to keep? If you're willing to keep the commandments on your door frame, do you also not wear mixed fiber clothing? What about the rules on purity and impurity? What's your litmus test?

Because the more I think about it, those who do keep Mosaic Law and those who don't keep it, are equally not keeping the Law. On the one hand you just can't, it's too antiquated or there is no temple or offering animal sacrifices for a Christian would be blasphemy. So it seems that neither one of us is keeping Mosaic Law the way James says we need to (obeying all of it). Interesting... :chin
 
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theLords

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You know, I've been going through this more and more and I found these similar commandments:


  1. To destroy idolatry and its appurtenances (Deut. 12:2-3) (affirmative).
  2. To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city (Deut. 13:16-17) (affirmative).
Now, neither one of us (nor any Christian/Jew really) has done this and hopefully won't be doing so anytime soon. That means:


James 2:10 (KJV)

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Christians and Jews stand alike in that each and every day we are guilty of breaking the Torah. It's definitely given me food for thought... thanks for a stimulating conversation.
 

Ryan

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Sure, they just didn't know it and many still don't and continue to reject the Rock (although Christians slaughtering Jews doesn't help bring about acceptance).
Right, very, very few people were born again before Christ came? :crazy


I don't agree. Evolution is basically -- "something" "randomly" "adapting" "improvement". What I'm saying is that it was "there" all along, but because of sin a veil was placed over our eyes, in Christ that veil is broken and we can truly see. It's passing from "glory to glory." We're called to live "His kingdom on earth" and "live in the spirit." If Christ fulfilled the law for me obtaining righteousness, why then would he ask me to continue to fulfill my own righteousness? Like Paul saying to me, "Who has bewitched you? Why go from Christ crucified to Law?"
You haven't read post #3? What you are saying is evolutionary in thinking, or darwinism in dispensationalism. Let me use Genesis again, because that forms the foundation for everything after.

Genesis 1:11 talks about genetic information and disproves any type of evolutionary process in creation and nature.
One cannot get life, from non-life.
Genetic structure of apes, there is no man information.
Fish cannot produce birds because there is no bird information in fish.
In the Passover gene, there is no Easter information. Passover can only produce more Passover. That is why Jesus was practicing Passover because it was in his information.
There is no clean in unclean foods. Unclean gene only produces unclean information. Because unclean will only beget unclean. So if God created in the beginning unclean animals because they were unclean to begin with, they will always be unclean.
You cannot produce Shabbat with Sunday. The seventh day information is only in the seventh day information

Getting the drift yet?

Would you elaborate? I've often heard it asked of Christians, "How do you know which commands to keep?" And, I've been thinking long and hard about it for some time, which is why I'm interested in how you figure out what to keep? If you're willing to keep the commandments on your door frame, do you also not wear mixed fiber clothing? What about the rules on purity and impurity? What's your litmus test?
Jesus was the litmus test. Remember when he told the Pharisees they are neglecting the weighier matters ot Torah? Matthew 23:23
Mixed fiber clothing I am working on admittedly. But I cannot afford to spend for a new wardrobe. That's the truth, but I look at my clothes when I dress and say a quick sorry before putting it on. Everything I buy on is not of mixed fibre though. There are weightier things though.

Anything related to the temple is shelved.


Because the more I think about it, those who do keep Mosaic Law and those who don't keep it, are equally not keeping the Law. On the one hand you just can't, it's too antiquated or there is no temple or offering animal sacrifices for a Christian would be blasphemy. So it seems that neither one of us is keeping Mosaic Law the way James says we need to (obeying all of it). Interesting... :chin
Of course none of us keep the Mosaic Law. One is because we all sin, and two is because of no temple which is a huge portion of them. But the ones we can keep, and should keep, is not being taught or practiced by our preachers. But lets not digress to much. Dispensationalism has at its core Darwinistic thinking, so as laughable as it is to think a man came from an ape, its just as laughable Passover became Easter.
 
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Eventide

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Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ...

Dispensationalism has at its core Darwinistic thinking, so as laughable as it is to think a man came from an ape, its just as laughable Passover became Easter.

I'm not sure how you came up with this analogy, because I certainly do not believe in evolution and yet can clearly see distinct dispensations throughout His story within the holy scriptures.

And if you're Jewish, then imo there's no problem with having a desire to be an Israelite... to keep feasts etc.. as long as you see your justification before God being by faith, rather than in your ability to be obedient to the seemingly endless ordinances within His Law. It's also vital as a believer in Christ to not hold other brothers accountable to the things which you deem necessary in your walk with the LORD.

Finally, I in no way at all think that the Jewish Passover became Easter... or that the Sabbath Day became Sunday. In fact, Dispensational teaching is perhaps the ONLY teaching where you're going to see a CLEAR distinction made between the Israel of God and the church of God.

Christians come together on the first day of the week because the Lord Jesus Christ has preeminence in everything.. and Saturday remains the Sabbath... clearly for Israel and not for the church of God.

The church of God rests surely in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If one cannot see the staggering revelation between the Law which was given by Moses, as compared to the Grace which came by Jesus Christ... then imo you're just not 'rightly dividing' His word.

.02
 

jasoncran

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Oh, these threads, it's like Christians are engaged in a 2,000 year long debate...but I'll take a stab at it Ryan ;)

Let's start with Acts: Peter and Paul and the "why lay on the Gentiles burdens which we and our forefathers couldn't bear."

But, Easter, although badly named is the single most greatest event of all time and space--the death and resurrection of the Lord for the payment of our sins.
If a bible mysteriously fell on an island, and the person who found the bible picked it up and read it from front to back. With absolutely no knowledge of anything else except the Word of God. What would he be celebrating? Passover or Easter? Christmas or Sukkot? Saturday Sabbath or the Sunday Sabbath?
as a gentile, he would be obeying the commands of Christ which was simply, be baptized, be born again and also how a believer would act as such, and communion.

no gentile was ever placed under the torah. unless you really want to call isreal a gentile nation. they had to become Hebrews to be under the torah. no jew today says a gentile can be acceptable to god by being a Hebrew only. the seven noahide laws are taught. these are used to guide them into either jewry or to be a noahide. it is reasonable to say the man noah did these laws.
 

Ryan

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Re: Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ...

Dispensationalism has at its core Darwinistic thinking, so as laughable as it is to think a man came from an ape, its just as laughable Passover became Easter.

I'm not sure how you came up with this analogy, because I certainly do not believe in evolution and yet can clearly see distinct dispensations throughout His story within the holy scriptures.

And if you're Jewish, then imo there's no problem with having a desire to be an Israelite... to keep feasts etc.. as long as you see your justification before God being by faith, rather than in your ability to be obedient to the seemingly endless ordinances within His Law. It's also vital as a believer in Christ to not hold other brothers accountable to the things which you deem necessary in your walk with the LORD.

Finally, I in no way at all think that the Jewish Passover became Easter... or that the Sabbath Day became Sunday. In fact, Dispensational teaching is perhaps the ONLY teaching where you're going to see a CLEAR distinction made between the Israel of God and the church of God.

Christians come together on the first day of the week because the Lord Jesus Christ has preeminence in everything.. and Saturday remains the Sabbath... clearly for Israel and not for the church of God.

The church of God rests surely in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I am not rightly dividing the word? You say they are Jewish Feasts or Sabbaths, yet who declares ownership of them:
Leviticus 23:1-2 The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:

Yes, but that was for the cro magnon era of Israel, but we have now entered into the fully evolved church and shed off all those appendages in favor of our days, times and seasons. Newsflash, if you are a believer in Jesus, you are part of the commonwealth of Israel. God's words, not mine. (Ephesians 2:12-13; Ephesians 2:19; Romans 12). There is no distinction between Church and Israel, and I mean believing Israel, not those who are solely of the lineage of Abraham.



If one cannot see the staggering revelation between the Law which was given by Moses, as compared to the Grace which came by Jesus Christ... then imo you're just not 'rightly dividing' His word.
There is a fascinating theory by evolutionists, who cannot prove a gradual evolution because the science doesn't support it called Punctuated Equilibrium. Basically, one day a chicken laid an egg, and out popped an giraffe. It is exactly the same with the thinking you just expressed. Jesus, who was and lived according to his teachings, commandments and so on, laid birth to something that was not of his like kind and a new era of Christianity was to go forth from that time onwards. It doesn't happen in nature, so why do we insist it happens in the scriptures? Remember back to 1 Corinthians 15:46. There was only one seed, that being Jesus, who could only produce everything after like kind of himself.
 

Eventide

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Re: Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ...

Newsflash, if you are a believer in Jesus, you are part of the commonwealth of Israel. God's words, not mine. (Ephesians 2:12-13; Ephesians 2:19; Romans 12). There is no distinction between Church and Israel, and I mean believing Israel, not those who are solely of the lineage of Abraham.

Here's my newsflash... Eph 2 says nothing even remotely close to what you just said, that the church of God is part of the commonwealth of Israel... The common WEALTH which the church of God is blessed with is Christ Himself.

The church of God is in Christ, not in Israel (Jacob)...

In fact, Israel is cut off from the root and blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. This is the mystery that you do not want to be ignorant of, lest you become wise in your own conceits.

Try as you might, you will not find a single scripture which teaches that the church of God is in Israel.

The church of God is in Christ while Israel is blinded in part.



If one cannot see the staggering revelation between the Law which was given by Moses, as compared to the Grace which came by Jesus Christ... then imo you're just not 'rightly dividing' His word.
Ryan said:
There is a fascinating theory by evolutionists, who cannot prove a gradual evolution because the science doesn't support it called Punctuated Equilibrium. Basically, one day a chicken laid an egg, and out popped an giraffe. It is exactly the same with the thinking you just expressed. Jesus, who was and lived according to his teachings, commandments and so on, laid birth to something that was not of his like kind and a new era of Christianity was to go forth from that time onwards. It doesn't happen in nature, so why do we insist it happens in the scriptures? Remember back to 1 Corinthians 15:46. There was only one seed, that being Jesus, who could only produce everything after like kind of himself.

Once you can see that Israel is cut off and that the church of God is in Christ, then you'll see that your analogy falls apart rather quickly.
 

theLords

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Right, very, very few people were born again before Christ came? :crazy

Sorry, you're humor escaped me... :biggrinunno What do you mean?

In the Passover gene, there is no Easter information. Passover can only produce more Passover. That is why Jesus was practicing Passover because it was in his information.

Sure, but Jesus was the Passover Lamb. Easter hasn't replaced Passover, the two tend to coincide. Passover is simply the promise of what God would do, while Easter is the celebration of what God has done. The Lamb of God was crucified and His blood covers the doorposts of our hearts, which is why Christians don't cover their doorposts with lamb's blood as the enslaved Hebrews once did.

There is no clean in unclean foods. Unclean gene only produces unclean information. Because unclean will only beget. So if God created in the beginning unclean animals because they were unclean to begin with, they will always be unclean.

Well, here I disagree. The beginning shows that all of God's creation was good. There were no unclean foods in the beginning. Handy does a really great job explaining it. And, Genesis 9:3 gives us: "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything (ESV)." There's no getting around it. This is the beginning.

You cannot produce Shabbat with Sunday. The seventh day information is only in the seventh day information

Again, if we go back to the beginning all we see is that "God rested." "The Sabbath was made for man," and it came much later.

You see, Ryan, the Mosaic Law is not "the beginning" and if it's not the starting point, then there is no real "Darwinistic theology."

Jesus was the litmus test. Remember when he told the Pharisees they are neglecting the weighier matters ot Torah? Matthew 23:23
Mixed fiber clothing I am working on admittedly. But I cannot afford to spend for a new wardrobe. That's the truth, but I look at my clothes when I dress and say a quick sorry before putting it on. Everything I buy on is not of mixed fibre though. There are weightier things though.

Knowing the heart of God, I know that this isn't his desire for any of us. On the one hand, if keeping the Mosaic Law is God's heart for us, then there's condemnation. Because, I can lie every day and say "sorry" to God and well...It's crazy isn't it. But, it's real and something we as Christians do every day and the grace of God wants patiently for repentance. On the other, from everything I know about God, I can honestly say that I imagine it breaks His heart hearing you apologize because you feel guilty for mixing the fibers of your clothing.

Yes, the Law has weightier matters, but the Bible still tells us--break one commandment, break them all. In reality, we both, on opposite sides of the fence, both stand condemned on the reality that we have not kept the Law. That's why we can both rejoice knowing we're redeemed and covered in the Blood of Christ. Holy and righteous.

Of course none of us keep the Mosaic Law. One is because we all sin, and two is because of no temple which is a huge portion of them. But the ones we can keep, and should keep, is not being taught or practiced by our preachers. But lets not digress to much. Dispensationalism has at its core Darwinistic thinking, so as laughable as it is to think a man came from an ape, its just as laughable Passover became Easter.

And, that's where I struggle to accept your theological position, Ryan. Because from both sides of the debate, both camps are picking and choosing which commands to keep. I can't come to terms with that.
 

Ryan

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[MENTION=29288]Eventide[/MENTION]
The people are of Yahweh are identified by several names or terms. They are called Israel (Exodus 4:22; Acts 2:36), the congregation, assembly or church (Deuteronomy 23:1; Acts 2:47), the holy ones or saints (Psalms 50:5; Romans 1:7), His children (Exodus 7:4), His firstborn (Exodus 4:22; Hebrews 12:23), and My people (Exodus 6:7; 1 Peter 2:12). All are terms that refer to His people. The people who are not of his people are also not His assembly, not His church, not Israel or His Saints. They're referred to as the nations, the heathen, or the Gentiles. Those who call themselves Israel, but are not called of Abraham, are really not Israel. Paul says this is Romans 9:6 "...they are not all Israel, who are of Israel..." Is one is not of the faith of Abraham, whether they say they are Israel or not, they they are not His people.

That is another area that is Darwinistic in its logic that one was replaced with another. That is not what the scriptures say.
 

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ah @ the lords. ryan like most jews believes that the TORAH made first in heaven then the rest of creation. well that cant be because unless ryan accepts the sages and the Talmudic position on that its not in solid scripture.
 

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[MENTION=91415]Ryan[/MENTION] remember what I warned you about the torah and my heritage? I have headed down this road before and briefly pondered abandoning Christ for my jewish heritage. thank god I didn't.
 

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ah @ the lords. ryan like most jews believes that the TORAH made first in heaven then the rest of creation. well that cant be because unless ryan accepts the sages and the Talmudic position on that its not in solid scripture.

I didn't know the Jews believed that. Now I know where the Muslims got that idea! And, yet, we as Christians believe that the Word was with God and the Word was God and He existed before creation and is not created. So, much, philosophy Jason. So much Philosophy! :crazy
 
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