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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Losing Salvation after getting saved?
- Thread starter jonahmano
- Start date
I keep reading these "plain Scriptures", yet there are none that actually SAY that any believer can lose their salvation.
Those Scriptures don't SAY what you think they MEAN.
What verse mentions being "barred from having faith again". That's a new one to me.
How does it make no sense that because Christ died for ALL sin, that there is no more sacrifice for sin? The problem was that the Hebrew believers were turning back to the law and sacrifice, which is a waste of time, since Christ actually died for ALL sin.
I have thunked about it. My explanation stands. Since we know that the lake of fire is eternal, and therefore, no one can be "consumed" by it, all passages with this kind of language is referring to physical death, since we CAN be physically consumed, and our bodies completely consumed.
Think about it.
Of course eternal rewards will be given in eternity, or the kingdom. I've never said otherwise.
I've shown clear verses that indicate the possibility of loss of rewards (1 Cor 3:14-15 and 2 Jn 8). Why isn't it possible for all those warning passages that you think refer to loss of salvation to be loss of reward? Remember, there are no verses that actually and plainly say that salvation can be lost.
The New Jerusalem is the new city that comes down from heaven to the new earth (Rev 21). All the OT believers were saved and resided in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom until Christ came and took them to heaven. So I don't know what your point is about no salvation outside of the NJ. Of course there has been.
The Biblical point is that in eternity, all saved people will reside on the new earth where the NJ will exist.
You have been shown the verses that teach us, Christian's who practice the works of the flesh, and walk in the flesh will not inherit the kingdom.
You have been shown the scriptures that teach us those who don't inherit the kingdom will be cast into the everlasting fires of hell.
This phrase inherit the kingdom mean salvation, as Jesus used it.
Unless you can show us a scripture where Jesus used this phrase inherit the kingdom to mean something other than given access to eternal life in God's kingdom, and not inheriting the kingdom of God to mean "something other" than being sentenced to hell, then all you have done misapplied the clear meaning of this phrase.
It doesn't mean "rewards".
It means eternal life or eternal death.
JLB
Your posts have been anything but clear. otoh, you argue that loss of faith = loss of salvation, while otoh, you argue that a sinful lifestyle (1 cor 6, Eph 5, Gal 5) results in loss of salvation.
It's either one, or both, or neither. And you haven't yet provided any verse that says what you claim.
The Bible teaches clearly that rewards can be lost. All the warning passages are based on lifestyle. Bingo. They speak of loss of reward, not loss of salvation.
And I've thoroughly explained what that means. And no one from your side has refuted it or shown in any way that it's wrong. Loss of reward is in view.
When one mixes apples and oranges, they get all sticky and wet. I've also shown how to discern between the different inheritances, yet you've not responded to any of my posts, either to refute it or to show me how I'm wrong.
Yes, as Jesus used it. That's the key. Context. Paul used it to refer to loss of reward.
If one ignores what Paul wrote from divine inspiration, then I guess there aren't any.
Discernment realizes how Jesus used it and how Paul used it. And it's been explained. Can't do more than that.
JLB
Matthew 12:28 - But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 13:11 - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Matthew 12:28 - But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 13:11 - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
The Hegelian fallacy(Calvinists use it for double predestination.) If a person is predestined to Go to heaven,(thesis) then unbelievers must be predestined to the lake of Fire.(Antithesis)....Hegel said," For every thesis there HAS to be an antithesis and when you put them together you have synthesis."
Not true for the word of God. Every clear thesis that is stated, an antithesis HAS to be stated for the antithesis to be true. It can't be "assumed." It has to be clearly stated in the word for the Antithesis to be excepted as true.
So Calvinists say," If the believer is predestined for heaven , the unbeliever is predestined for the Lake of Fire." There is NO clear scripture that says," The unbeliever is Predestined for the Lake of Fire." It is ASSUMED.
We are watching this Fallacy being played out on this thread.
Lets use the most popular argument so far, stop believing and you lose your salvation.
John 6:47 NASB~~"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life......"truly,truly" means, pay close attention readers, this is a point of doctrine and it WILL be attacked.
Thesis~~he who believes has eternal life.
The "assumed" Antithesis~~Stop believing and you lose eternal Life.
The antithesis,"Stop believing and you lose eternal life." has to be stated just as clearly in the word As the thesis in order for the antithesis to be true.
Example~~John 3:18 NASB~~"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Thesis and antithesis clearly stated.
Now for our "assumed" antithesis we would have to have a verse that clearly said," Or if you STOP believing."
Not true for the word of God. Every clear thesis that is stated, an antithesis HAS to be stated for the antithesis to be true. It can't be "assumed." It has to be clearly stated in the word for the Antithesis to be excepted as true.
So Calvinists say," If the believer is predestined for heaven , the unbeliever is predestined for the Lake of Fire." There is NO clear scripture that says," The unbeliever is Predestined for the Lake of Fire." It is ASSUMED.
We are watching this Fallacy being played out on this thread.
Lets use the most popular argument so far, stop believing and you lose your salvation.
John 6:47 NASB~~"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life......"truly,truly" means, pay close attention readers, this is a point of doctrine and it WILL be attacked.
Thesis~~he who believes has eternal life.
The "assumed" Antithesis~~Stop believing and you lose eternal Life.
The antithesis,"Stop believing and you lose eternal life." has to be stated just as clearly in the word As the thesis in order for the antithesis to be true.
Example~~John 3:18 NASB~~"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Thesis and antithesis clearly stated.
Now for our "assumed" antithesis we would have to have a verse that clearly said," Or if you STOP believing."
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That pretty much sums it up... because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Many people believe Jesus is the Son of God, but not God in the flesh.
Tony Hyman
Member
Whooie this is a long thread so if I duplicate what has been stated already I apologise.
I think if one looks at the question posed literally then there is an explanation for the meaning of "got saved in the first place".
Calvin adresses this issue under his famous 5 Point .
Point No 5 Perseverence of the Saints come into play I think. By chance I stumbled across I John 2:19 which reminded me of this thread while I was searching for some other project Im busy with.Anyway this is what John says "They went out from us , but they did not really belong to us.For if they belonged to us,they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.'NIV
Wikipedia On Calvin comment further on this matter "Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with(1 John 2:19), or if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit , they will be divinely chastened (Heb 12:5-11) and will repent (1 John 3:6-9).
Now the matter is not only about the people who have left God but people who remain and do nothing. Simply sitting grace-stung believers.
1 John 2:19 NASB~~They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
This is simply negative believers leaving a positive believing group. If true Knowledge and Doctrine is taught, there will ALWAYS be some believers who will walk away from it.
John Said the people who stayed had Knowledge. 1 John 2:20 NASB~~But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
Those grace stung believers who are just sitting on their ass are better off then an unbeliever trying to imitate Christ to be saved, never having put their faith in what they are trying to imitate.
The believer who does nothing will be miserable,disciplined,reaping what they sow,Possible sin unto death,lost blessings, lost rewards. But still going to heaven.
The unbeliever who is trying to imitate Christ and does not have faith in Him alone for salvation will have less discipline in this life(they don't know any better) but does not make it to heaven and ends up in the lake of Fire.
Except that 1 Tim 4:1 uses a Greek word from which we get the word "apostate". That word means "to no longer believe what one used to believe". If words do have meaning, then it is true that true believers can cease to believe. But it is more clear than just this. Jesus Himself noted some who "believed for a while, and in time of testing, fell away".
So, Calvin was incorrect about his view that true believers can't quit believing. As well as a number of other things. But that would require a different thread.
And you can preach to an atheist until you're blue in the face, but only God can change the heart.
Yup, Non-OSAS always take the word 'believing' out of context.
A born again christian can stop believing in what God is trying to do for them,
but they will never ever ever stop believing that Jesus is God in the flesh.
The Holy Spirit has already revealed himself to them, it is finished!
Not one single person has yet to address the words of Jesus, on Judgment Day when he says the words.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34
The folks in verse 34, standing on His right hand, inherit the kingdom.
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
The folks in verse 41, on the left hand, will not inherit the kingdom.
...will not inherit the kingdom = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire.
When we see the phrase... will not inherit the kingdom, in the Scriptures written by Paul, it means they will hear these words on Judgement Day: 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire...
Jesus Christ set the precedent for the meaning of this phrase. It will never mean any other thing in scripture.
Not inheriting the kingdom = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire.
All the shameful attempts to discredit and distort what this phrase means is disgraceful.
This is most likely why Paul wrote these powerful words...1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2
People departing from the faith, because they have been taught that no matter how they live or if they believe or not, they will always be saved.
No need to test yourself to see if you are in the faith! Because OSAS.
JLB
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34
The folks in verse 34, standing on His right hand, inherit the kingdom.
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
The folks in verse 41, on the left hand, will not inherit the kingdom.
...will not inherit the kingdom = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire.
When we see the phrase... will not inherit the kingdom, in the Scriptures written by Paul, it means they will hear these words on Judgement Day: 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire...
Jesus Christ set the precedent for the meaning of this phrase. It will never mean any other thing in scripture.
Not inheriting the kingdom = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire.
All the shameful attempts to discredit and distort what this phrase means is disgraceful.
This is most likely why Paul wrote these powerful words...1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2
People departing from the faith, because they have been taught that no matter how they live or if they believe or not, they will always be saved.
No need to test yourself to see if you are in the faith! Because OSAS.
JLB