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WHY CALVINISM IS UNBIBLICAL - UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

PaulChristensen said:
I have taken the trouble of actually reading Calvin, and his questionable views on elections and predestination are just a very tiny bit of all the other faith-building things that he wrote.

Many of the opposing posts criticising Calvinists are making majors out of minors, and ignoring the bulk of the Christ-centred material that he wrote.
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Sir we are dealing with a doctrine that is being presented individuals here, who have their own unigue "take" on what they believe. I take each person, who calls themselves a "Calvinist", at face value by what they post in these threads.

I take them post by post, and let each persons work stand on its own, by what they write.

That seems much different than the “Calvinism” we have being promoted here at the Forum, which says we are elected for salvation by God n which He Sovereignly causes us to be born again, and later on when we hear the Gospel, we now have the ability to be saved.


So, with that said, Ill ask again...


Is this what you believe?
 
JLB said:
Sir we are dealing with a doctrine that is being presented individuals here, who have their own unigue "take" on what they believe. I take each person, who calls themselves a "Calvinist", at face value by what they post in these threads.

I take them post by post, and let each persons work stand on its own, by what they write.

That seems much different than the “Calvinism” we have being promoted here at the Forum, which says we are elected for salvation by God n which He Sovereignly causes us to be born again, and later on when we hear the Gospel, we now have the ability to be saved.


So, with that said, Ill ask again...


Is this what you believe?
Click to expand...
I believe that when I believed the Gospel and embraced Jesus as my Saviour, I received eternal life and the absolutely assurance of salvation at the second coming of Christ when we are all raised from our graves. So, what more do I need to add to that?
 
PaulChristensen said:
I believe that when I believed the Gospel and embraced Jesus as my Saviour, I received eternal life and the absolutely assurance of salvation at the second coming of Christ when we are all raised from our graves. So, what more do I need to add to that?
Click to expand...

Ok, let me know when you are ready to answer my question.


Thanks, JLB
 
PaulChristensen said:
The answer is 42. What was the question again???
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That seems much different than the “Calvinism” we have seen being promoted here at the Forum, which says —

… we are elected for salvation by God in which He Sovereignly causes us to be born again (without any believing on our part) , and later on when we hear the Gospel, we now have the ability to be saved.

Question —

Is this what you believe?
 
Ì
PaulChristensen said:
Although I think that Calvin is a very sound theologian in most respects, he had his faults. After all, Calvin wasn't crucified for us was he? The only person without fault is the One who was crucified for us and rose again from the dead.
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Agreed.
The reformation was against a church that had lost its way.
But if we want to be honest about this....
Protestantism also refused calvinism since denominations really don't teach this anymore.

I'd also like to say that sometimes I'm accused of not understanding calvinism.
It always seems to me like the other member is not aware of its full meaning!

I'd also like to start a thread on something I became aware of over the week.
Hope you join in....we protestants might be needing a Pope soon!
I think it'll be in THEOLOGY.
 
JLB said:
That seems much different than the “Calvinism” we have seen being promoted here at the Forum, which says —

… we are elected for salvation by God in which He Sovereignly causes us to be born again (without any believing on our part) , and later on when we hear the Gospel, we now have the ability to be saved.

Question —

Is this what you believe?
Click to expand...
Hi JLB....
Paul C is fully able to answer for himself...
However, may I say the following on his behalf?

He attended a reformed college and has a masters degree in divinity.
He is not a "high" calvinist, nor is he even a 5 point calvinist, in my humble opinion.

We (he and I) spoke about soteriology at some point and he agrees a lot with how we understand soteriology...
God makes the first move...we agree...etc.

Not every calvinist believes the same doctrines - which is why it is not easy to speak to them.

In my opinion, the Westminster Faith Confession states what Calvin believed, but is put so softly that perhaps some
new calvinists may not really understand it.....I'm not sure about this. And thus, they don't even understand the points I make at times.

Anyway, just want to say this. Hope PaulChristensen doesn't mind too much.

P.S. IOW,,,he is not promoting what others here are teaching which is not mainline theology.
 
wondering said:
He attended a reformed college and has a masters degree in divinity.
He is not a "high" calvinist, nor is he even a 5 point calvinist, in my humble opinion.
Click to expand...

I honestly don’t know what he believes, but am asking him, so I can get to know him and what he believes.

I wanted to point out also to him, that there seems to be a vast difference in what John Calvin taught, and what is promoted as Calvinism today.

We seem to have several variations that have evolved into what some teach as “Hyper Grace”, or OSAS.



JLB
 
JLB said:
I honestly don’t know what he believes, but am asking him, so I can get to know him and what he believes.

I wanted to point out also to him, that there seems to be a vast difference in what John Calvin taught, and what is promoted as Calvinism today.

We seem to have several variations that have evolved into what some teach as “Hyper Grace”, or OSAS.



JLB
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The OSAS is the P in tulip.
Perseverance of the Saints.
After all, if God picked someone, He'll keep them till the end.
So....although calvinists will not admit this, they really won't know till the end if God really picked them or not.
Some calvinists are not secure in their salvation, and they cannot be,,,,as confirmed in a reply to someone by John Piper,,,poor girl was distraught.
 
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JLB said:
That seems much different than the “Calvinism” we have seen being promoted here at the Forum, which says —

… we are elected for salvation by God in which He Sovereignly causes us to be born again (without any believing on our part) , and later on when we hear the Gospel, we now have the ability to be saved.

Question —

Is this what you believe?
Click to expand...
Not at all. We have to believe the Gospel first. The Scripture says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, and how can people hear the Word of God unless it is preached, and how can it be preached unless the preacher is called of God? (my paraphrase of Romans 10:17-21).

It is when a person hears the Gospel preached, or shared by an outreach worker, or a Christian friend, and he believes it, then faith from the Spirit is generated in his heart to embrace Jesus as his Saviour. It is only when a person receives that saving faith through the preaching of the Gospel and his believing it, that he realises that he is one of the elect. The reprobate is the person who hardens his heart against the preaching of the Gospel, and therefore develops a heart of unbelief that leads to him perishing.

Paul did not believe in unconditional election. He said, "Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" (2 Corinthians 5:11). If he believed in unconditional election, then he wouldn't be going to the effort of trying to persuade the unconverted by preaching the Gospel to them in order to get them off the road to destruction and through the narrow path to salvation.
 
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wondering said:
Ì

Agreed.
The reformation was against a church that had lost its way.
But if we want to be honest about this....
Protestantism also refused calvinism since denominations really don't teach this anymore.

I'd also like to say that sometimes I'm accused of not understanding calvinism.
It always seems to me like the other member is not aware of its full meaning!

I'd also like to start a thread on something I became aware of over the week.
Hope you join in....we protestants might be needing a Pope soon!
I think it'll be in THEOLOGY.
Click to expand...
The new Pope will most likely be the Antichrist.
 
wondering said:
Hi JLB....
Paul C is fully able to answer for himself...
However, may I say the following on his behalf?

He attended a reformed college and has a masters degree in divinity.
He is not a "high" calvinist, nor is he even a 5 point calvinist, in my humble opinion.

We (he and I) spoke about soteriology at some point and he agrees a lot with how we understand soteriology...
God makes the first move...we agree...etc.

Not every calvinist believes the same doctrines - which is why it is not easy to speak to them.

In my opinion, the Westminster Faith Confession states what Calvin believed, but is put so softly that perhaps some
new calvinists may not really understand it.....I'm not sure about this. And thus, they don't even understand the points I make at times.

Anyway, just want to say this. Hope PaulChristensen doesn't mind too much.

P.S. IOW,,,he is not promoting what others here are teaching which is not mainline theology.
Click to expand...
I don't mind at all. While I enjoy reading Calvin, because he does teach a lot of faith-building stuff, I don't go along with his unconditional election and predestination views. We have the treasure in earthen vessels, and so there are faults in every theological view. After all, theology is the "science" of seeking to understand the nature and character of God, His plans and purposes for the world and for the church. It is an inexact science. Therefore with every theology, we have to pick the meat from the bones. "Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good". There is a lot of good in Calvin's theology and commentaries, but there are a few bones as well and we have to be careful not to choke on any of them.
 
wondering said:
The OSAS is the P in tulip.
Perseverance of the Saints.
After all, if God picked someone, He'll keep them till the end.
So....although calvinists will not admit this, they really won't know till the end if God really picked them or not.
Some calvinists are not secure in their salvation, and they cannot be,,,,as confirmed in a reply to someone by John Piper,,,poor girl was distraught.
Click to expand...

I just don’t see how anyone can conclude that perseverance means guaranteed salvation.


Perseverance mean the person who has the hope of salvation, continues in patient endurance ; continues to have faith



For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25



A person would have to totally misunderstand, and willfully disregard what perseverance actually means, to conclude that it meant they could never become lost not matter what the circumstances.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13





JLB
 
PaulChristensen said:
Not at all. We have to believe the Gospel first. The Scripture says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, and how can people hear the Word of God unless it is preached, and how can it be preached unless the preacher is called of God? (my paraphrase of Romans 10:17-21).

It is when a person hears the Gospel preached, or shared by an outreach worker, or a Christian friend, and he believes it, then faith from the Spirit is generated in his heart to embrace Jesus as his Saviour. It is only when a person receives that saving faith through the preaching of the Gospel and his believing it, that he realises that he is one of the elect. The reprobate is the person who hardens his heart against the preaching of the Gospel, and therefore develops a heart of unbelief that leads to him perishing.

Paul did not believe in unconditional election. He said, "Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" (2 Corinthians 5:11). If he believed in unconditional election, then he wouldn't be going to the effort of trying to persuade the unconverted by preaching the Gospel to them in order to get them off the road to destruction and through the narrow path to salvation.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
PaulChristensen said:
I believe that when I believed the Gospel and embraced Jesus as my Saviour, I received eternal life and the absolutely assurance of salvation at the second coming of Christ when we are all raised from our graves. So, what more do I need to add to that?
Click to expand...

It’s the in between, when we first believe and the day we die, that could be where some might disagree.


Hebrews says it this way —


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
 
JLB said:
It’s the in between, when we first believe and the day we die, that could be where some might disagree.


Hebrews says it this way —


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
Click to expand...
Contrary to what some believe about Calvin, I read what Calvin himself said about those who continued in a willful sinful lifestyle after professing Christianity. He called them "fanatics". He said that one of the evidences of a genuine conversion to Christ was that the person had a hatred of sin and did all he could to banish it from his life. But he was also clear that we would always have a battle between the flesh and the Spirit and that we need to be sober and vigilant to make sure that we are not caught up in the deceitfulness of sin

Billy Sunday, the famous evangelist of the early 20th century said that he hated sin so much that he would kick it, and if he lost his legs he would punch it, and if he lost his arms he would bite it, and if he lost his teeth, he would gum it until the day he died. I believe that this is a true Calvinist attitude to sin.

Although the Arminianist would say that if a person who lapsed into a sinful lifestyle after professing Christianity, could lose his salvation as a result. Calvin would say that the person wasn't genuinely converted to Christ in the first place. Calvin clearly taught that a professing Christ who lived a sinful lifestyle, claiming OSAS, was nothing more than a hypocrite.

The teaching that once a person is saved, he can live exactly how he wants to live without any moral restraints, is the heresy called, "Antinomianism". The Scriptural truth is that "we must all give an account to God". This means that there may be some rude surprises for those who hang their hats on the nail of OSAS as an excuse to continue their immoral lifestyle, when they find themselves standing before the judgment seat of Christ.
 
PaulChristensen said:
Contrary to what some believe about Calvin, I read what Calvin himself said about those who continued in a willful sinful lifestyle after professing Christianity. He called them "fanatics". He said that one of the evidences of a genuine conversion to Christ was that the person had a hatred of sin and did all he could to banish it from his life. But he was also clear that we would always have a battle between the flesh and the Spirit and that we need to be sober and vigilant to make sure that we are not caught up in the deceitfulness of sin

Billy Sunday, the famous evangelist of the early 20th century said that he hated sin so much that he would kick it, and if he lost his legs he would punch it, and if he lost his arms he would bite it, and if he lost his teeth, he would gum it until the day he died. I believe that this is a true Calvinist attitude to sin.

Although the Arminianist would say that if a person who lapsed into a sinful lifestyle after professing Christianity, could lose his salvation as a result. Calvin would say that the person wasn't genuinely converted to Christ in the first place. Calvin clearly taught that a professing Christ who lived a sinful lifestyle, claiming OSAS, was nothing more than a hypocrite.

The teaching that once a person is saved, he can live exactly how he wants to live without any moral restraints, is the heresy called, "Antinomianism". The Scriptural truth is that "we must all give an account to God". This means that there may be some rude surprises for those who hang their hats on the nail of OSAS as an excuse to continue their immoral lifestyle, when they find themselves standing before the judgment seat of Christ.
Click to expand...

I really prefer not label people as Calvinist or Armenian.

If a person claims to be a Calvinist, then I will refer to them as such.

I just take what each person post's and compare to the scripture, line upon line...
 
JLB said:
I really prefer not label people as Calvinist or Armenian.

If a person claims to be a Calvinist, then I will refer to them as such.

I just take what each person post's and compare to the scripture, line upon line...
Click to expand...
Accepted. By the way, an Arminian is a person who follows the teaching of Arminius, a 16th Century theologian. An Armenian is a person who lives in the country of Armenia. I thought I was just give you that bit of useful information. :cool2
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