Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

Hopeful said:

Have you ever said..."Don't thank me, thank God."

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When I was younger and ignorant.

Now I’m embarrassed at my cavalier treatment of a warm extension of gratitude. I refused it and that was reflecting false humility fearing pride. After having gone through a “messenger of Satan”experience that stripped me of real
pride and false humility, I can discern the real humility from the false and real pride when it’s there. Refusing a thank you is false humility unless some ignorant person is thanking you for a real miracle no man can do,

Dorothy Mae said:

The humble man says, “thank you.”

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I still say that fails to ascribe glory and praise to the Lord and subtly absorbs the praise due to God alone.

Hopeful said:

It is written..."For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake,..." (1 Cor 9:19-23)
Paul made an art out of blending in.
Paul used his pre-conversion label as a Pharisee to the gospel's, and his own, advantage.

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I was thinking that too, Paul was claiming as being a Pharisee to win over pharisees.

Dorothy Mae said:

When I was younger and ignorant.

Now I’m embarrassed at my cavalier treatment of a warm extension of gratitude. I refused it and that was reflecting false humility fearing pride. After having gone through a “messenger of Satan”experience that stripped me of real
pride and false humility, I can discern the real humility from the false and real pride when it’s there. Refusing a thank you is false humility unless some ignorant person is thanking you for a real miracle no man can do,

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I think you are just embarrassed to be known as a Christian.

Hopeful said:

I think you are just embarrassed to be known as a Christian.

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Quite the contrary. But I believe a Christian is like Jesus to growing degrees, thinks of others and their welfare more often than their own.

My impression of believers who claim to be sinless is that the bar is pretty low. That is, what is sin is so narrowly defined that it’s easy to avoid. I’ve met a few over the years. Not bad people.

crossnote said:

I still say that fails to ascribe glory and praise to the Lord and subtly absorbs the praise due to God alone.

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Those who experience your rejection of their gratitude do not praise God but either are supposed to think you’re a spiritual giant or a prig above receiving mere human thanks. It leads to a whole church unable to give thanks to whom it is due lest they too experience rejection of their warm hearted expression. A poorer body of believers is the end result rebuking one another for expressing gratefulness to one another.

Dorothy Mae said:

Those who experience your rejection of their gratitude do not praise God but either are supposed to think you’re a spiritual giant or a prig above receiving mere human thanks. It leads to a whole church unable to give thanks to whom it is due lest they too experience rejection of their warm hearted expression. A poorer body of believers is the end result rebuking one another for expressing gratefulness to one another.

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I don’t reject their gratitude, I merely pass it on to the Lord.
We’re not here to be men pleasers.

crossnote said:

I don’t reject their gratitude, I merely pass it on to the Lord.
We’re not here to be men pleasers.

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Actually you reject it. They feel you’ve rejected their thanks and feel bad for thanking you. They likely won’t make that mistake again.

crossnote said:

Ok, I get it. That's why the Pharisees persecuted Paul from town to town.

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Not all the pharisees were hostile to our Lord. In fact, the school Paul came from (Beit Hillel) seemed to be at least marginally accepting of our Lord, while the students from Beit Shammai were very opposed to Him.

So WHICH Pharisees were persecuting Paul?

rogerg said:

Just out of curiosity, obedience to what?

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I find this question (in what ever form it takes) to be wrong minded. It is the same thing as "how much can I get away with?"

That is not a heart set on obeying; it is a mind set on skating by and doing one's own thing as much as possible.

crossnote said:

That 'personal punch' would be like me telling you "Which tells me you know very little about the new birth and Paul's teachings".
Would you like to try again?

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I have the sense that your idea of the New Birth and Paul's teachings and mine are quite different.

Any current traditional Jew who has studied the 2nd temple period teachings of the Pharisees see both Our Lord and Paul as mainstream Pharisees.

Modern (and perhaps ancient as well) christianity has an evil caricature of the Pharisees that IMO is undeserved.

I would suggest reading this book:

D-D-W said:

There is a LOT more to sin than just willful disobedience. You can sin over and over and over, and not even be aware of it. You can sin by having a bad attitude or negative emotions.

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How does someone not know they have a 'bad attitude'?

Who says having a 'bad attitude' is a sin?

Anger is good when it helps you to beat off a rapist.

What is a 'negative emotion'?

One main problem with sinners not repenting of sinning according to Scripture, is that they don't know what God says sinning against Him is in Scripture.

Fornicating is sinning. It has nothing to do with 'bad attitude' and 'negative emotion'. If I want to believe I am still a sinner because of having a 'bad attitude', then I should go on and fornicate, since I'm a sinner anyway?

What was Jesus' attitude when He rebukes the hypocrites as devils?

Being a Christian is not being some sort of new age divine.

The favorite tool of unrepentant sinners is to talk about meaningless things as being sins, so as to justify committing the real sins of the devil.

They downgrade sinning for the devil against God to meaningless rubbish.

They upgrade not sinning to being perfect also. Scripture never says Jesus as the 'perfect man'. He just did righteousness, good, and all things well.

D-D-W said:

You can sin by believing the wrong doctrines. You can sin by not having faith. "Whatever is not from faith is sin." That can lead to an odd situation of "sinned if you do and sinned if you don't."

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True, but only if we do bad doctrine are we sinning.

I believed for decades that man is born with sin nature. It didn't mean I was sinning against God. It just menat I was decieved.

Paul said that those with him on the road to Damascus did not hear the Lord, because they lied to him about it. He told a 'lie' by he was not a liar, but only taking liars at their word.

Being perfect as He is perfect, while in mortal flesh, is simply being whole with one eye full of Light for Christ only, and not going about sinning with the sinners.

Christians stop the riotous living, not living with a bad attitude about rapists, murderers, thieves, despots...I don't let anything make be bitter in heart, but that doesn't mean I pray for devils.

I have a bad attitude about the devil all the time. I actually hate him, which is why I don't go about sinning with him. Afterall, he's a devil.

D-D-W said:

You can sin by not having faith. "Whatever is not from faith is sin." That can lead to an odd situation of "sinned if you do and sinned if you don't."

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How does a believer not have faith? Who says Christians have to believe stupid things?

I have no faith whatsoever that the beast making fire come down from heaven in my sight is a good beast.

Sinning no matter what is indeed an odd situation. It's also unreal, since Scripture never speaks of it.

People really should try speaking with Scripture, rather than their own convoluted minds about things of God and life in mortal flesh.

jaybo said:

No one is saved by Jesus' death? The world is not saved? So, according to you, Jesus died for nothing and the penalty for all sin hasn't been paid.

That's not what the Bible says. John 3:16-17, " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him."

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Jesus paid the price for sin, which is death of the soul, that men may be forgiven of past sins with repentance for His name's sake.

The wages of sin is still death to the unrepentant sinners.

No, the world is not now saved. Those refusing to repent for Jesus' sake are not born of God nor will be in the blessed resurrection of the righteous.

We must take up our own cross, even as Jesus did, who showed us the way to righteousness and true holiness in this life.

We can't piggy back Jesus' cross, by thinking we are all now saved, because the man Jesus died on earth.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel)

Sinning for the devil against God is still the reason our souls die, and Jesus came to deliver, wash, and save us from sinning.

He did not die to save us from the judgment and penalty of sinning, while we go on merrily sinning unto heaven:

Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die and go to paradise.

Islam doesn't even teach that.

OSAS is the reason the doctrine of grace and salvation by faith is mocked by unbelieving sinners on earth, who at at least have enough maturity to take responsibility for their sinning and know they are not righteous sons of God.

crossnote said:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 NKJV
[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, [2] by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-unless you believed in vain. [3] For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, [4] and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

I guess I don’t understand your agenda. It seems like you are on a crusade to refute those who hold to OSAS. There have been good saints in the past that have held both views and we are not either of them.

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Christ died to pay the price for sinning, which is death of the soul.

If he had not died on the cross, then sinners could never know the pure conscience of forgiveness of God for all past sins, not present sinning, and especially not planned future ones.

OSAS is false doctrine. Period. There may a be a few left, that believe it as a surety for enduring temptation and overcoming sinning as a righteous son of God on earth unto the end.

The old school OSAS believed closer to the truth, that once a person takes up their own cross for Christ with full repentance of sinning against God, then they have the surety and trust in Jesus as our Lord and our God to abide in Him and be righteous as He unto the end.

Their reading is, Once we are honestly Saved, we will stay Saved Always to the end.

The virulent, degenerate form of modern OSAS is the introduction of the free-sex hippy liberalism into Christian religion.

They teach: Christians are saved and justified by faith alone, without any need of doing of God's righteousness, Christians stay sinners just like all sinners on earth. It is impossible to live righteously, holily, and blamelessly any day of this life. Christians are forgiven of all past, present, and futures sins once for all, when they believe Jesus is the Christ. Unlike sins of unbelievers, Christians sins are not covered by grace from God's sight and righteous judgment.

And the worst form of it is to become railers against the righteous as all being just self-righteous boasters of the devil.

Do you believe any of these OSAS teachings? If so, which ones?

wondering said:

Are there other commandments or just this one?

What is the other Great Commandment?
Love your neighbor as yourself...

What does Love Yourself mean anyway?

What does Love Your Neighbor mean?

James 2:15-18
Matthew 25:40

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There are other commandments, but until we are obeying the first great one, we cannot possibly be obeying the second great one.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23)

Many Christians have only become good neighborly sinners, like any other good neighborly sinners on earth, whether religious or not.

Jesus does not come to make us better sinners, but to purify us from within of all unrighteous thought and vain imagination for sinning, which is loving God with all the heart, and not just part or half a heart.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Is 55)

Of Zebulun, such as went forth to battle, expert in war, with all instruments of war, fifty thousand, which could keep rank: they were not of double heart. (1 Chron 12)

They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. (Ps 12)

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. (James 4)

wondering said:

Are there other commandments or just this one?

What is the other Great Commandment?
Love your neighbor as yourself...

What does Love Yourself mean anyway?

What does Love Your Neighbor mean?

James 2:15-18
Matthew 25:40

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Scripture always commands loving God with a pure heart first, that we then love one another from a pure heart; otherwise, we are no more saved and justified by Jesus Christ than any other outwardly good sinner, while still inwardly corrupt with lust for sins of the world.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Matthew 5)

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently. (1 Peter 1)

Jesus did not come and die on the cross to pay the price for sinning, just to start a better religion than ever before on earth.

So long as Christians remain sinners within the heart, then they may make for themselves a fine christian religion in this life, but it is no better than any other finely made religion of man.

Christians receive Jesus Christ and His power within the heart, to become pure-hearted righteous sons of God, not just neighborly sinners in the Christian religion among the religions of man.

When our hearts are purified by obeying His Spirit within, then we know He is our Lord and our God: We know God and Jesus Christ within, and we keep His commandments from a pure heart of faith, beginning with the first great one first.

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Believing Jesus is the first step to keep the first great commandment, and obeying Him ends in doing so: we obey Him within first, with power to purify and keep our hearts pure for His name's sake.

And it is by grace through faith and not of our own will and power that we do so:

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

The only thing not possible with God, is to be sinning for the devil against Him, and be a born son of His on earth.

The Son was not sinning on earth as man, and neither should we His brethren of His flesh and of His bones, be found sinning against Him on earth:

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2)

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. (1 Thess 4)

jaybo said:

No one is saved by Jesus' death? The world is not saved? So, according to you, Jesus died for nothing and the penalty for all sin hasn't been paid.

That's not what the Bible says. John 3:16-17, " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him."

Click to expand...

Jesus paid the price for sin, which is death of the soul, that men may be forgiven of past sins with repentance for His name's sake.

The wages of sin is still death to the unrepentant sinners.

No, the world is not now saved. Those refusing to repent for Jesus' sake are not born of God nor will be in the blessed resurrection of the righteous.

We must take up our own cross, even as Jesus did, who showed us the way to righteousness and true holiness in this life.

We can't piggy back Jesus' cross, by thinking we are all now saved, because the man Jesus died on earth.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel)

Sinning for the devil against God is still the reason our souls die, and Jesus came to deliver, wash, and save us from sinning.

He did not die to save us from the judgment and penalty of sinning, while we go on merrily sinning unto heaven:

Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die and go to paradise.

Islam doesn't even teach that.

OSAS is the reason the doctrine of grace and salvation by faith is mocked by unbelieving sinners on earth, who at at least have enough maturity to take responsibility for their sinning and know they are not righteous sons of God.

RBDERRICK said:

The mystery of being saved by faith and justified by works is resolved by knowing the difference between being born to do good works, and becoming natural at doing good works, to become born again.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The answer is how and where does God's righteousness come to man, that he may be justified by Christ.

In Scripture, God's righteousness comes by the faith of Jesus, and it comes into the heart first by birth of the Spirit: we are born again unto good works, not born again by doing good works, until it becomes natural to do so.

We do not 'discover' we are born again, when we learn we are doing good things naturally: we know we are born again by faith, and understand we have His power to do good at all times:

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

We don't seek to change our wicked ways by force of will, until we begin to do so naturally, so as to become as newborn creatures.

We become born again and sons of God by believing Jesus, knowing that the whole world lies in wickedness, and we are no more of that world, having no more fellowship with it.

With natural man, faith does not change the works, but only works can change the faith.

The reformation of Jesus Christ on earth is to undo the natural man's carnal understanding that to change ourselves, we must first change our works.

To the natural mind, all change is made by power of will, not by faith. The natural man's faith is in himself, and that faith of himself only transforms, as he sees himself changing by his works: We become better, because we do better, and we become as newborn, only when we become natural at doing better.

Any man, by power of will, can change his works in life, so that it becomes natural to do so: he is not born to do them, but willfully changes them, until it becomes so natural to him as it were by birth.

This is the error of them that were Jews by nature, who sought the righteousness of God to come to themselves, by doing righteousness as it were by law, and not by faith.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Neither the law nor the works of the law are the enemies of salvation by new birth, even as the letter of the law is not dead, except it be without the Spirit: being done not by faith but by will.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The doctrine of Christ against being saved by works, is not against works of the law, but is only against becoming new born by will of man to keep the law, until it becomes natural to do so, as by nature, not by birth.

Even as the first and second great commandments, God is a God of first things first: first be born again by the faith of Jesus to love Him with all the heart, second to love our neighbors as ourselves from the heart.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

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I am sure you are in right thinking.,.. I am glad to say,, we have different stages of faith
1st stage is... knowing and getting salvation,, this stage is not need any works, just faith is need.. Eph 2:8.
Salvation is free gift... there is no choice for discuss in this
2nd stage is ... we are saved to do good works to live as mentors as epistles for Christ and as model people to all other people in world,.. Eph 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
this is an important different in our call and life with Christ..
May God bless you brother

Walpole said:

Antinomianism is a false gospel. It is the gospel of cheap grace.

"For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." (1 Cor 7:19)

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Grace is never cheap. It is far beyond our reach and its cost greater than a man can bear: it could only have been purchased and brought to fruition by Christ -- it is as a gift or not at all.

The commandments of God are these: that the elect believe in Jesus Christ and love the brethren.

1Jo 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Dorothy Mae said:

Actually you reject it. They feel you’ve rejected their thanks and feel bad for thanking you. They likely won’t make that mistake again.

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Like I said, I'm not a man pleaser.