Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

Like I said, I'm not a man pleaser.

If your brother has something against you, legitimate in the eyes of God, you’re not a God pleaser either. He wants you to go and make it right before you try to give God anything. God cares how we treat his children.

 

[crossnote]

So WHICH Pharisees were persecuting Paul?

Those that were opposing his teachings...
I don't have antisemite tendencies, so when I read 'Jews', I usually take that to mean Jewish leaders...


But the Jews incited the prominent God-fearing women and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas and expelled them from their district. (Act 13:50)

And when an attempt was made by both the Gentiles and the Jews with their rulers, to treat them abusively and to stone them, (Act 14:5)

But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, thinking that he was dead.
(Act 14:19)

But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews rose up together against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat,
(Act 18:12)

I'm still curious why you would identify Paul as a Pharisee theologically, when their approach to salvation has little in common.

 

[crossnote]

I have the sense that your idea of the New Birth and Paul's teachings and mine are quite different.

Any current traditional Jew who has studied the 2nd temple period teachings of the Pharisees see both Our Lord and Paul as mainstream Pharisees.

Modern (and perhaps ancient as well) christianity has an evil caricature of the Pharisees that IMO is undeserved.

I would suggest reading this book:
View attachment 14330

I had that book 13 years ago and found it not worthwhile.
Our views of the new birth may be different but justification as taught by Paul after his conversion was totally different than what most Pharisees were teaching then. A study at Acts 15 and the Book of Galatians will make that clear.

 

[crossnote]

If your brother has something against you, legitimate in the eyes of God, you’re not a God pleaser either. He wants you to go and make it right before you try to give God anything. God cares how we treat his children.

How would I know I offended my brother unless he tells me?

 

[crossnote]

Christ died to pay the price for sinning, which is death of the soul.

Death is separation. Jesus has reunited us with God through His blood.

The wages of sin is still death to the unrepentant sinners.

True, but for the redeemed, He has paid that debt.

No, the world is not now saved. Those refusing to repent for Jesus' sake are not born of God nor will be in the blessed resurrection of the righteous.

True, never said they are.

We must take up our own cross, even as Jesus did, who showed us the way to righteousness and true holiness in this life.

If we are His, we will take it up and not deny Him.We can't piggy back Jesus' cross, by thinking we are all

now saved, because the man Jesus died on earth.

If we are His, He lays His cross on us as He conforms us to His image.

Sinning for the devil against God is still the reason our souls die, and Jesus came to deliver, wash, and save us from sinning.

We are also seated in heavenly places, sealed unto that Day. God still chastises those sons of His who He loves. (Heb 12).

He did not die to save us from the judgment and penalty of sinning, while we go on merrily sinning unto heaven:

Through the new birth our desires have changed and no longer desire to sin 'merrily' unto heaven.

Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die and go to paradise.

Islam doesn't even teach that.

I'm not Muslim, so I wouldn't know, but don't they teach a number of steps to get to paradise?

OSAS is the reason the doctrine of grace and salvation by faith is mocked by unbelieving sinners on earth, who at at least have enough maturity to take responsibility for their sinning and know they are not righteous sons of God.

Of course, 'salvation by our works' comes 2nd nature by unbelievers (look at all the religions they create requiring one to 'do' in order to please God). Their sin is unbelief! Unbelief that God sent His only Son to redeem mankind from their sins. and freely bestows eternal life through His Son Jesus.

John 3:36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:26 (KJV) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 6:27 (KJV) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

1 John 5:11 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12 (KJV) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1 John 5:20 (KJV) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[D-D-W]

How does someone not know they have a 'bad attitude'?
Who says having a 'bad attitude' is a sin?

Sin = anything that misses the mark and falls short of God's glory. Rom 3.23
Can you honestly say that being grumpy, angry, or irritable is God's glory

What is a 'negative emotion'?

Things such as depression, constant anger at everyone, self-loathing, shame, etc.

Fornicating is sinning. It has nothing to do with 'bad attitude' and 'negative emotion'. If I want to believe I am still a sinner because of having a 'bad attitude', then I should go on and fornicate, since I'm a sinner anyway?

Paul says no to continuing in sin.

What was Jesus' attitude when He rebukes the hypocrites as devils?

Righteous indignation. Not the same as anger.

True, but only if we do bad doctrine are we sinning.
I believed for decades that man is born with sin nature. It didn't mean I was sinning against God. It just meant I was deceived.

To the Calvinist, Arminianist doctrine is sinful, and vice versa. One or both are wrong.
Being wrong is NOT God's glory - which means it is sinful.

How is being deceived in God's glory?

How does a believer not have faith? Who says Christians have to believe stupid things?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word [rhema SPOKEN word] of God. Rom 10.17 IOW if you are NOT hearing God speak to you, you do not have true biblical faith.

The writer of Hebrews 3 times quotes Psalm 95: "Today if you hear HIS voice do not harden your heart."

 

[D-D-W]

So WHICH Pharisees were persecuting Paul?

Those that were opposing his teachings...

No, I meant the Shammai Pharisees or the Hillel Pharisees?

 

[crossnote]

No, I meant the Shammai Pharisees or the Hillel Pharisees?

You're the expert on Pharisees, so if you know Paul's doctrine and you know the differences between those two groups, you should know your answer.
Since Paul does not contradict Jesus, perhaps the clue is 'which group of Pharisees continued to harass Jesus?

When He left that place, the scribes and the Pharisees began to be very hostile and to interrogate Him about many subjects, plotting against Him to catch Him in something He might say. (Luk 11:53-54)

For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on a Sabbath. (Joh 5:16) (Paul never did any such thing)

Even Jesus told us to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, (without making a distinction between Shammai or Hillel) ...

Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
(Luk 12:1)

 

[rogerg]

f your brother has something against you, legitimate in the eyes of God, you’re not a God pleaser either. He wants you to go and make it right before you try to give God anything. God cares how we treat his children.

In that verse, the brother is Christ and thereby His salvation; the adversary is law

 

[rthom7]

There’s a better way to understand the word love, do to others as you’d like them to do to you. Neither Hebrew nor English nor any other language communicates better than action.

Well said

 

[rthom7]

I had a little trouble finding it.
It spoke of maleness love and femaleness love and how both are necessary in a home.

What about ahab and ahabuh.
I had read about this on a different link you had posted some time ago.
I like that one better...if you know which one, please post the link again.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-796.htm here for maleness love ahab
http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-838.htm here for ahabuh love

 

[rthom7]

I definitely agree that those who have been saved perform good works, the chief of which I believe is in the sharing of the message of the gospel- that Christ alone is Saviour -- and I hope I didn't imply otherwise. However, in addition to that, and what I hope wasn't lost, (and was mentioned in your reply), is that those works come as an outgrowth of having been saved -- they do not/cannot lead to or cause salvation. So, since truly good spiritual works only come by those already saved, and since there is no greater spiritual blessing one can receive than of having been saved, the good work done must solely be out their concern and love of the brethren and not for benefit

I am not aware we can do any good works in our own strength however good our intentions are, you should perhaps read my study of faith and after reading this see if you agree with this study...I would appreciate some input, as I am trying myself to understand what faith is and how the works of Jesus flow into us, as we choose them.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm a study of amanuah (faith)

 

[rogerg]

I am not aware we can do any good works in our own strength however good our intentions are, you should perhaps read my study of faith and after reading this see if you agree with this study...I would appreciate some input, as I am trying myself to understand what faith is and how the works of Jesus flow into us, as we choose them.

Thank you for providing the link and I will gladly read it.

 

[rthom7]

These are on biblical Hebrew - not the modern version.

Hebrew Words for LOVE

Praise and Worship Bible Study LOVE אַהֲבָה Hebrew English translation is ahabah This is not an exhausted completed listing, but these words are here for your learning. Aheb: To Love Original Word:…

ilovepraiseandworship.net

The meaning of 'chesed' in the Hebrew Bible

Thank you for the list of Hebrew words and their verses, nice

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, there are commands, but none can affect one's salvation -- they are temporal.

They are temporal?
Where does the NT state that?

So when Jesus said to DO something,
He didn't really mean it literally??

Matthew 24:45-51 Jesus said:
45“Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
47“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48“But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’
49and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
50the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25:34 Jesus said:
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’


Matthew 25:41-45 Jesus said:
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


As James said it:
Faith without works is a dead faith of no use to anyone.
James 2:17,20

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing wrong with obedience if we give God the glory for it rather than boasting "'I' did it His way".

Atheists take the glory.
Those that love God naturally give ALL glory to God...for what THEY do, for what they GET from God, for what they GIVE to God.

I think it's wonderful if a person knows I'm a Christian and I go out of my way to be helpful to them.
Jesus said not to boast..so we're not to boast.

But doing God's work here on earth is NOT boasting...
It's simply doing what He would have us to do.

Ephesians 2:9-10
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Colossians 3:17
17Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

I rest my case. Obeying God for some is never a yes or no. It’s in the grey zone if optional.

Right.
But there are no grey zones in our spirit lives.
We either are living for God and doing our best to obey Him,
or we're living for the evil one and obeying him.

 

[GodsGrace]

So that let’s you off the hook of any obedience? What if a woman says, “well, I’m not perfect and since it’s impossible to behave lovingly towards my husband 100%, I don’t have to do so unless I feel like it. Or maybe I can just tell myself that telling him and others that I love him is enough. Actually DOING something bothersome for him isn’t necessary. I should but the answer to if I must isn’t a yes or no.”

Do you believe every Christian is sinless?

 

[GodsGrace]

There are other commandments, but until we are obeying the first great one, we cannot possibly be obeying the second great one.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23)

Many Christians have only become good neighborly sinners, like any other good neighborly sinners on earth, whether religious or not.

Jesus does not come to make us better sinners, but to purify us from within of all unrighteous thought and vain imagination for sinning, which is loving God with all the heart, and not just part or half a heart.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Is 55)

Of Zebulun, such as went forth to battle, expert in war, with all instruments of war, fifty thousand, which could keep rank: they were not of double heart. (1 Chron 12)

They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. (Ps 12)

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. (James 4)

Of course I agree.
God gives us a new heart.
We are cleansed from the inside out.

But could you give me a straight Yes or No....

Are we, as Christians, required to do good deeds/works?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not aware we can do any good works in our own strength however good our intentions are, you should perhaps read my study of faith and after reading this see if you agree with this study...I would appreciate some input, as I am trying myself to understand what faith is and how the works of Jesus flow into us, as we choose them.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm a study of amanuah (faith)

I'd like to say this to you and rogerg :

I've heard many times in these years I've been on this forum, and also on others, that works DO NOT SAVE US.
Well, I don't know any Christian person that believes that, so why it's repeated ad nauseam, I don't know.

Of course we do works because of our salvation and because of the love we have for God and for all humanity.

So what does this prove exactly?
Jesus said WE MUST act and do...behavior and good deeds/works.
It's not enough just to be neutral and not do evil.
That will not promote the Kingdom of God here on earth.
We must DO GOOD so that the Kingdom of God can be lived and so that the world can be a better place because we are in it. Be WE, I mean we Christians. If we're just like everyone else, what good are we?

So maybe we could become brave and actually state that good works KEEP US SAVED.
Yes. I think this is necessary and should be stated.
John tells us that if we do not abide, obey, live with, keep Jesus closes, the vinedresser (God Father) will throw that unfruitful branch away and it will dry up and burn.

That may sound scary and maybe some can't take it, but it's what John, an Apostle who loved Jesus and lived with Him during His entire ministry, stated in his gospel.

As long as we want to be with God there is no reason to fear anything John states because we're in the arms of God,
however, we also cannot DENY it.