Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[D-D-W]

So people can name Paul a pharisee all they want, but in his new nature he was anything but one.

Which tells me you know very little about the Pharisees.

 

[rthom7]

Actually the Hebrew has several words for Love, and those 2 are both forms of the same word: Ahavah.

There is also Dod (and its various forms), Rachaman (and its various forms), and Chesed (and its various forms).

Can you give the BIble verses for these other Hebrew words for love please?

SO I can follow you more properly...

Shalom

 

[D-D-W]

Right, but my point was ‘whether he called himself a Pharisee or others did, his teaching was 180deg different than the Pharisees calling their attempt at righteousness before God as ‘dung’ v.8’.

OK lets check that.

Did Paul believe in the existence of Angels? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe in the resurrection of the dead? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe believe the Prophets and Psalms were inspired word of God? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe that God could be worshiped outside the Temple? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe that God required obedience? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe in the literal reign of Messiah in a 1000 year Messianic kingdom? Yes. Pharisee.

 

[rthom7]

I did ask you for some Bible texts, but I looked up your Hebrew words.
Respectfully I have to disagree, though you probably speak and know modern Hebrew more than me. I am a student of Jeff Benner and support His understandings of Hebrew most of the time, sometimes I disagree.

Hebrew 2617 Nm) (\L ((\L Hh-SD) —
Kindness: In the sense of bowing the
neck to another as a sign of kindness.
[freq. 248] |kjv: mercy, kindness,
lovingkindness, goodness, kindly,
merciful, favour, good, goodliness,
pity, reproach, wicked| {str: 2617}
Jeff Benner Lexicon

Hebrew 1730 Nm) (JH ((JH DWD) — I.
Pot: Pot A pot used for boiling
liquids. [ms: dd] II. Beloved:
One who is loved. Also the uncle
as one who is loved by the
nephew. [ms: dd] [freq. 68]
|kjv: beloved, uncle, love,
wellbeloved,. basket, pot, kettle,
caldron| {str: 1730, 1731}

Hebrew 7355: ) 1LV (1LV R-HhM) —
Compassion: [freq. 47] (vf: Paal,
Pual, Piel) |kjv: mercy, compassion,
pity, love, merciful| {str: 7355}

The Hebrew words ahab and ahabuh stand alone in Hebrew, as functions of love.
However as you point out other variations of loving do exist.

Shalom

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No. As someone said this may need to be its own thread.

Take a story of 2 families: the Smiths and the Joneses. The 2 families are neighbors and have 3 children each. The Smiths are very proper and strict. Homework done before dinner; Proper table manners, etc. The Jones kids are running terrors. But the kids are best friends.

One day the Jones parents are killed in a car crash. The Smiths take them in temporarily. So the Jones kids want to be permanantly in with the Smiths, so they totally reform their behavior. They do everything the Smith kids do in order to not be placed into the foster system. They come home straight from school. Perfect manners. Love each other and their neighbors. DO more than their share of chores.

Does any of that make them Smiths, or are they still named Jones? Does it let them move in with their neighbors, or does it not change their going to the foster system?

The only way for the Jones kids to be kept out of the system is for Mr and Mrs Smith to adopt them. There is nothing the kids themselves can do to make that happen one way or the other.

In the same way there is nothing we can do to make ourselves "saved." We have to be adopted by the Father.

Dear DDW,

That is a really sweet example that warms the heart in and of itself. There’s some matching and some not.

First, it’s likely the parents who took in the orphans have some affection for them. It’s hard not to love those who love your children. And then we have the orphans trying their best to fit in. That is sweet.

Now you mention that while the kids try, the parents decide. But we can conclude that the parents want to keep the orphans. They fit in well and are motivated to do whatever it takes. There’s reason to believe those two adults would adopt those children. They are warm hearted. They’d want the best for all the children, like God.

He wants all men to repent, turn to Him and be saved. So this examples works well to demonstrate God’s wanting to adopt those who want to be adopted. So while you said there’s nothing the orphans can do to become adopted, that isn’t true with God.

Earning adoption is not possible but it doesn’t mean we have no part to play. We must believe. We must repent. We must turn to and trust God. We are not at all passive while salvation happens to us.

Do you want the scriptures where Jesus told people what they must do or acknowledged that the people he spoke to did something?

 

[D-D-W]

Can you give the BIble verses for these other Hebrew words for love please?
SO I can follow you more properly...

Dod:
Leviticus 10:4, Leviticus 20:20, Leviticus 25:49, Numbers 36:11, 1 Samuel 10:14-16, 1 Samuel 14:50, 2 Kings 24:17. Entire book of Song of Solomon.

Rachaman:
Exodus 33:19, Deuteronomy 13:17, Deuteronomy 30:3, 1 Kings 8:50, 2 Kings 13:23, Psalm 18:1, Psalm 102:13.

Chesed:
Gen 19:19; 20:13; 21:23; 24:12,14,27,49; 32:10; 39:21; 40:14; 47:29; Exod 15:13; 20:6; 34:6,7; Lev 20:17; Num 14:18,19; Deut 5:10; 7:9,12; Josh 2:12,14; Judges 1:24; 8:35; Ruth 1:8; 2:20; 3:10; 1 Sam 15:6; 20:8,14,15; 2 Sam 2:5,6; 3:8; 7:15; 9:1,3,7; 10:2; 15:20; 16:17; 22:51; 1 Kings 2:7; 3:6; 8:23; 20:31; 1 Chron 16:34,41; 17:13; 19:2; 2 Chron 1:8; 5:13; 6:14,42; 7:3,6; 20:21; 24:22; 32:32; 35:26; Ezra 3:11; 7:28; 9:9; Neh 1:5; 9:17,32; 13:14,22; Esther 2:9,17; Job 6:14; 10:12; 37:13; Psalms 5:7; 6:4; 13:5; 17:7; 18:50; 21:7; 23:6; 25:6,7,10; 26:3; 31:7,16,21; 32:10; 33:5,18,22; 36:5,7,10; 40:10,11; 42:8; 44:26; 48:9; 51:1; 52:1,8; 57:3,10; 59:10,16,17; 61:7; 62:12; 63:3; 66:20; 69:13,16; 77:8; 85:7,10; 86:5,13,15; 88:11; 89:1,2,14,24,28,33,49; 90:14; 92:2; 94:18; 98:3; 100:5; 101:1; 103:4,8,11,17; 106:1,7,45; 107:1,8,15,21,31,43; 108:4; 109:12,16,21,26; 115:1; 117:2; 118:1,2,3,4,29; 119:41,64,76,88,124,149,159; 130:7; 136:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26; 138:2,8; 141:5; 143:8,12; 144:2; 145:8; 147:11;

And remember, these lists are incomplete and the actual words may be variants of the root word.

 

[D-D-W]

I did ask you for some Bible texts, but I looked up your Hebrew words.
Respectfully I have to disagree, though you probably speak and know modern Hebrew more than me. I am a student of Jeff Benner and support His understandings of Hebrew most of the time, sometimes I disagree.

Hebrew 2617 Nm) (\L ((\L Hh-SD) —
Kindness: In the sense of bowing the
neck to another as a sign of kindness.
[freq. 248] |kjv: mercy, kindness,
lovingkindness, goodness, kindly,
merciful, favour, good, goodliness,
pity, reproach, wicked| {str: 2617}
Jeff Benner Lexicon

Hebrew 1730 Nm) (JH ((JH DWD) — I.
Pot: Pot A pot used for boiling
liquids. [ms: dd] II. Beloved:
One who is loved. Also the uncle
as one who is loved by the
nephew. [ms: dd] [freq. 68]
|kjv: beloved, uncle, love,
wellbeloved,. basket, pot, kettle,
caldron| {str: 1730, 1731}

Hebrew 7355: ) 1LV (1LV R-HhM) —
Compassion: [freq. 47] (vf: Paal,
Pual, Piel) |kjv: mercy, compassion,
pity, love, merciful| {str: 7355}

The Hebrew words ahab and ahabuh stand alone in Hebrew, as functions of love.
However as you point out other variations of loving do exist.

Shalom

These are on biblical Hebrew - not the modern version.

Hebrew Words for LOVE

Praise and Worship Bible Study LOVE אַהֲבָה Hebrew English translation is ahabah This is not an exhausted completed listing, but these words are here for your learning. Aheb: To Love Original Word:…

ilovepraiseandworship.net

The meaning of 'chesed' in the Hebrew Bible

www.bible-researcher.com

 

[Dorothy Mae]

"It is still only an optional extra."

That's a good one. I'll be putting that in the files for intelligence insulting hypocrisy 102.

How so? All believers of said theology say one “ought” to do good works out of faith or love or gratitude but none say it is even a “must.” It’s always presented as something good to do, which makes it an optional extra. When asked what happens if you don’t, well, nothing concrete is offered.

But there’s absolutely no hypocrisy. None at all.

 

[rogerg]

So my question than along this theme, is our response to Jesus is a faith response

I definitely agree that those who have been saved perform good works, the chief of which I believe is in the sharing of the message of the gospel- that Christ alone is Saviour -- and I hope I didn't imply otherwise. However, in addition to that, and what I hope wasn't lost, (and was mentioned in your reply), is that those works come as an outgrowth of having been saved -- they do not/cannot lead to or cause salvation. So, since truly good spiritual works only come by those already saved, and since there is no greater spiritual blessing one can receive than of having been saved, the good work done must solely be out their concern and love of the brethren and not for benefit

 

[crossnote]

Which tells me you know very little about the Pharisees.

That 'personal punch' would be like me telling you "Which tells me you know very little about the new birth and Paul's teachings".
Would you like to try again?

 

[crossnote]

OK lets check that.

Did Paul believe in the existence of Angels? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe in the resurrection of the dead? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe believe the Prophets and Psalms were inspired word of God? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe that God could be worshiped outside the Temple? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe that God required obedience? Yes. Pharisee.
Did Paul believe in the literal reign of Messiah in a 1000 year Messianic kingdom? Yes. Pharisee.

Ok, I get it. That's why the Pharisees persecuted Paul from town to town.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nowhere?
You just supplied three verses declaring it !
Which Jews got to enter the promised land?
The obedient TWO, Caleb and Joshua.

Where do these two commands state that we must be 100% obedient?
Please don't start that again...

Only Jesus was perfect while on earth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where did I state that?

Post 520.

Did I misunderstand??

You said that SOME LIKE TO EQUATE FAITH AND OBEDIENCE....
(as if they weren't)

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings Wondering, many do not understand while there is only one word in English for love, there are TWO words in Hebrew for love. This is profound and changes the whole doctrines of elohiym that define God as love.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-845.htm

This study looks into the two Hebrew words for love, the ahab and the ahabuh.

Shalom

I had a little trouble finding it.
It spoke of maleness love and femaleness love and how both are necessary in a home.

What about ahab and ahabuh.
I had read about this on a different link you had posted some time ago.
I like that one better...if you know which one, please post the link again.

 

[rogerg]

You said that SOME LIKE TO EQUATE FAITH AND OBEDIENCE....

Just out of curiosity, obedience to what?

 

[GodsGrace]

How so? All believers of said theology say one “ought” to do good works out of faith or love or gratitude but none say it is even a “must.” It’s always presented as something good to do, which makes it an optional extra. When asked what happens if you don’t, well, nothing concrete is offered.

But there’s absolutely no hypocrisy. None at all.

When asking right out:
MUST we obey?

The answer is never a Yes or No.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just out of curiosity, obedience to what?

YOU said it Roger!
What do YOU think we should be obedient to??

 

[rogerg]

YOU said it Roger!
What do YOU think we should be obedient to??

Sorry, wondering you've lost me. Sharing the gospel?

 

[crossnote]

Post 520.

Did I misunderstand??

You said that SOME LIKE TO EQUATE FAITH AND OBEDIENCE....
(as if they weren't)

Here is my full quote...

Yes, so many like to equate faith with obedience..except, when it comes to Jesus' perfect obedience (thus perfect faith).

Like I said 'so many (not necessarily myself) like to equate faith with obedience' .

I was only drawing a comparison of those who pound obedience and yet hardly mention the perfect obedience of Christ (without which no one could be saved).

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is my full quote...

Like I said 'so many (not necessarily myself) like to equate faith with obedience' .

I was only drawing a comparison of those who pound obedience and yet hardly mention the perfect obedience of Christ (without which no one could be saved).

Yes.
And I'm one of those that pound obedience.