Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, wondering you've lost me. Sharing the gospel?

LOL
Sure.
That's just one of many commands.
Do you think there are more?

 

[rogerg]

LOL
Sure.
That's just one of many commands.
Do you think there are more?

Yes, there are commands, but none can affect one's salvation -- they are temporal.

 

[Walpole]

Yes, there are commands, but none can affect one's salvation -- they are temporal.

Antinomianism is a false gospel. It is the gospel of cheap grace.

"For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." (1 Cor 7:19)

 

[crossnote]

Yes.
And I'm one of those that pound obedience.

Nothing wrong with obedience if we give God the glory for it rather than boasting "'I' did it His way".

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When asking right out:
MUST we obey?

The answer is never a Yes or No.

I rest my case. Obeying God for some is never a yes or no. It’s in the grey zone if optional.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Where do these two commands state that we must be 100% obedient?
Please don't start that again...

Only Jesus was perfect while on earth.

So that let’s you off the hook of any obedience? What if a woman says, “well, I’m not perfect and since it’s impossible to behave lovingly towards my husband 100%, I don’t have to do so unless I feel like it. Or maybe I can just tell myself that telling him and others that I love him is enough. Actually DOING something bothersome for him isn’t necessary. I should but the answer to if I must isn’t a yes or no.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Nothing wrong with obedience if we give God the glory for it rather than boasting "'I' did it His way".

Everything is wrong with disobedience no matter who one claims is the reason.

“If you love me, you will keep my teaching.” The converse is also true, if we don’t keep his teaching, we don’t love him. His teaching isn’t to just tell others his teaching.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Greetings Wondering, many do not understand while there is only one word in English for love, there are TWO words in Hebrew for love. This is profound and changes the whole doctrines of elohiym that define God as love.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-845.htm

This study looks into the two Hebrew words for love, the ahab and the ahabuh.

Shalom

There’s a better way to understand the word love, do to others as you’d like them to do to you. Neither Hebrew nor English nor any other language communicates better than action.

 

[crossnote]

Everything is wrong with disobedience no matter who one claims is the reason.

Taking glory from God and ascribing it to self is a great disobedience even if one thinks they are 'obedient'.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No believer of any doctrine lives entirely without sin. PERIOD. That cannot be accomplished in this life.

You know, I once thought about something in this regard and then dropped the above position. I didn’t change my view, I just dropped it.

If you were to hear from God, that there are or have been people who lived and died never having sinned, would it bother you? Would you think God hates them? Do you think the world might be a better place if a bunch of people could be so described?

You know, Heaven is populated by people who never sin. Seems pretty good.

I am confident if Jesus were asked, “Master, are there people living who ceased to sin?” He would answer, “What is that to you? You follow me.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Taking glory from God and ascribing it to self is a great disobedience even if one thinks they are 'obedient'.

Obedience to God, especially when unpleasant, results in a heart very different than you are thinking it is. How shall I put it? You very much know that you did it and that God is pleased very similar to a child obeying their father in an unpleasant task and basking in his being pleased. One could, I suppose, boast to the father about the obedience but he knows. One doesn’t boast to other siblings because it spoils the pleasure of pleasing him. One treasures it in the heart, is a better description of the matter.

 

[crossnote]

Obedience to God, especially when unpleasant, results in a heart very different than you are thinking it is. How shall I put it? You very much know that you did it and that God is pleased very similar to a child obeying their father in an unpleasant task and basking in his being pleased. One could, I suppose, boast to the father about the obedience but he knows. One doesn’t boast to other siblings because it spoils the pleasure of pleasing him. One treasures it in the heart, is a better description of the matter.

Treasuring it in the heart is not as noble as ascribing glory to God, not only for our deeds but especially His.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Treasuring it in the heart is not as noble as ascribing glory to God, not only for our deeds but especially His.

Mary did it and seemed to be described as a response that was positively received by the Lord.

Loving the truth means to render responsibility or praise to whom it is due. False humility is not glorifying Him.

 

[crossnote]

False humility is not glorifying Him.

No, but true humility glorifies Him. Many with false humility take the praise of others without passing it on to God...

On an appointed day, dressed in royal robes and seated on the throne, Herod delivered a speech to them. The assembled people began to shout, “It’s the voice of a god and not of a man!” At once an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give the glory to God, and he was eaten by worms and died.
(Act 12:21-23)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No but true humility does. Many with false humility take the praise of others without passing it on to God...

Well, actually refusing a simple “well done” by another person with “it’s all the Lord” is false humility to the tee with a super spirituality to impress them (pride) thrown in. The humble man says, “thank you.” The proud man says, “oh no, it’s not a simple man making a good choice at one point in time but a super spiritual man through whom the most important and power Being in the universe is showing Himself.”

On an appointed day, dressed in royal robes and seated on the throne, Herod delivered a speech to them. The assembled people began to shout, “It’s the voice of a god and not of a man!” At once an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give the glory to God, and he was eaten by worms and died.
(Act 12:21-23)

He allowed himself to be called “God.” If they had shouted “great leader” or “good job” nothing would have happened.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, all unrighteousness is sin. But what constitutes "all unrighteousness?"

Don't you have a conscience?

The definition of sin never changed. There is nothing to say it did and the original language words in both Hebrew and Greek refer to the same thing: An archery term meaning to aim at a target but miss the mark, the bulls eye.

Is it a sin to not circumcise your son?
Is it a sin to have a beer?

That is NOT what that scripture says. Read it:
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
There is nothing to say that "without temptation and lust, there is no sin." You are reading that into the text as if that is the ONLY form of sin that exists. It is NOT. Not even close. Is what James describes "sin?" Absolutely. But it is not the only way sin comes about.

Verses 14 and 15 say exactly what produces sin.

No believer of any doctrine lives entirely without sin. PERIOD. That cannot be accomplished in this life.

Perhaps that is the reason Jesus said no man will see the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again?
Having killed the old "us" at our crucifixion with Christ, we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
That new life "in Christ" does not include sin.
There is no sin in Christ, wherein we spend the rest of our new lives.

 

[Hopeful]

No. As someone said this may need to be its own thread.

Take a story of 2 families: the Smiths and the Joneses. The 2 families are neighbors and have 3 children each. The Smiths are very proper and strict. Homework done before dinner; Proper table manners, etc. The Jones kids are running terrors. But the kids are best friends.

One day the Jones parents are killed in a car crash. The Smiths take them in temporarily. So the Jones kids want to be permanantly in with the Smiths, so they totally reform their behavior. They do everything the Smith kids do in order to not be placed into the foster system. They come home straight from school. Perfect manners. Love each other and their neighbors. DO more than their share of chores.

Does any of that make them Smiths, or are they still named Jones? Does it let them move in with their neighbors, or does it not change their going to the foster system?

The only way for the Jones kids to be kept out of the system is for Mr and Mrs Smith to adopt them. There is nothing the kids themselves can do to make that happen one way or the other.

In the same way there is nothing we can do to make ourselves "saved." We have to be adopted by the Father.

You just listed all the things the kids CAN do.

 

[Hopeful]

No one is saved by Jesus' death? The world is not saved? So, according to you, Jesus died for nothing and the penalty for all sin hasn't been paid.

That's not what the Bible says. John 3:16-17, " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him."

His comments were rhetorical answers to another poster.

 

[Hopeful]

Right, but my point was ‘whether he called himself a Pharisee or others did, his teaching was 180deg different than the Pharisees calling their attempt at righteousness before God as ‘dung’ v.8’.

Philippians 3:5-10 KJV
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. [7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Also through the new birth he sees…

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 2:15 KJV
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

and unlike Pharisees, Paul saw himself dead to the law…

Romans 7:4 KJV
[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Galatians 2:19-20 KJV
[19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. [20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So people can name Paul a pharisee all they want, but in his new nature he was anything but one.

It is written..."For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake,..." (1 Cor 9:19-23)
Paul made an art out of blending in.
Paul used his pre-conversion label as a Pharisee to the gospel's, and his own, advantage.

 

[Hopeful]

Well, actually refusing a simple “well done” by another person with “it’s all the Lord” is false humility to the tee with a super spirituality to impress them (pride) thrown in. The humble man says, “thank you.” The proud man says, “oh no, it’s not a simple man making a good choice at one point in time but a super spiritual man through whom the most important and power Being in the universe is showing Himself.”

He allowed himself to be called “God.” If they had shouted “great leader” or “good job” nothing would have happened.

Have you ever said..."Don't thank me, thank God."