Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rogerg]

They are temporal?
Where does the NT state that?

So when Jesus said to DO something,
He didn't really mean it literally??

Well, yes, they do them, but the doing is not what saves. Those who do, do, only because of having been saved,
not to be saved. Do you think the satisfying those verses brings salvation? If that were true, then
we are all still under law and in a lot of trouble indeed. Those who truly do them have been saved and as such do from
the heart, joy, and desire and fidelity to follow God's directives, but as the saved, and as having already
inherited the greatest blessing possible through eternity future, their motives are selfless. Doing something with the intent of leveraging it into something better, is accounted as works and spiritual debt.
They are also warnings to the unsaved.
Do you believe in works for salvation?

As James said it:
Faith without works is a dead faith of no use to anyone.
James 2:17,20

Christ is the object of that verse, we are not. Christ was the only person to have works as the center of His faith. We do not and cannot.

 

[rogerg]

t's not enough just to be neutral and not do evil.

Think about what you just said. If it isn't enough, then you are in fact saying that we are saved by our works.
You can't have it both ways.

 

[GodsGrace]

Think about what you just said. If it isn't enough, then you are in fact saying that we are saved by our works.
You can't have it both ways.

Roger,
Read my post no. 720 and tell me what you think.
Because we just go around in circles with this topic...
(and I don't mean just you and me).

 

[GodsGrace]

Think about what you just said. If it isn't enough, then you are in fact saying that we are saved by our works.
You can't have it both ways.

OK
We're saved by our works.

Where does faith come in?

 

[rogerg]

We must DO GOOD so that the Kingdom of God can be lived and so that the world can be a better place because we are in it. Be WE, I mean we Christians. If we're just like everyone else, what good are we?

I read post 720. The kingdom of God will not be on/of this earth. There is to be a new heaven and new earth. This cosmos will be destroyed. Christ has already won the victory on the behalf of the elect for all of the prophecy of the Bible to come to fruition. Our primary task is to share the gospel.

So maybe we could become brave and actually state that good works KEEP US SAVED.

Disagree. Good works do not keep us saved. We have been informed in the Bible that those saved have been
granted eternal life through Christ and not themselves. If you can explain to me how the eternal can become
un-eternal I'd be better able to follow you

Jhn 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg

BTW

What ARE works??

 

[GodsGrace]

I read post 720. The kingdom of God will not be on/of this earth. There is to be a new heaven and new earth. This cosmos will be destroyed. Christ has already won the victory on the behalf of the elect for all of the prophecy of the Bible to come to fruition. Our primary task is to share the gospel.



Disagree. Good works do not keep us saved. We have been informed in the Bible that those saved have been
granted eternal life through Christ and not themselves. If you can explain to me how the eternal can become
un-eternal I'd be better able to follow you

Jhn 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Must leave, but to be continued in the morning.

John 3:36
Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life.
BELIEVES IN THE SON.
BELIEVES.

Let's be serious about this and see if we can't get on the same page...
What does BELIEVE mean?

I have to BELIEVE in the Son in order to be saved.
The NT was written in Greek.
Plus BELIEVE might have meant something different back then?

Could you post your understanding of this and I'll respond tomorrow.

 

[rogerg]

OK
We're saved by our works.

Where does faith come in?

I never said that we are saved by our works - exactly the opposite in fact. We are NOT saved by our works - I think you
misunderstood me. I was saying that based upon YOUR post, you in effect are saying that works are required.
The faith and works that brough salvation were Christ's faith and works, not ours. Any faith we might obtain
is from the fruit of the Spirit, which is from the gift of salvation

 

[GodsGrace]

I read post 720. The kingdom of God will not be on/of this earth. There is to be a new heaven and new earth. This cosmos will be destroyed. Christ has already won the victory on the behalf of the elect for all of the prophecy of the Bible to come to fruition. Our primary task is to share the gospel.



Disagree. Good works do not keep us saved. We have been informed in the Bible that those saved have been
granted eternal life through Christ and not themselves. If you can explain to me how the eternal can become
un-eternal I'd be better able to follow you

Jhn 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Just a side issue.
Jesus came here to teach us how to be saved and to establish HIS Kingdome on earth.
If you read all the Kingdom scripture, you'll find that there is no need to explain HEAVEN.
Of course heaven will be perfect, and like a pearl, etc.

Jesus spoke about salvation maybe 2 or 3 times in the entirety of the gospels.
He spoke about how we should behave and what we should do for the Kingdom of God HERE.
We need do nothing at all once we get to heaven.

And I do agree, of course, about the literal new earth which you speak of.

 

[GodsGrace]

I never said that we are saved by our works - exactly the opposite in fact. We are NOT saved by our works - I think you
misunderstood me. I was saying that based upon YOUR post, you in effect are saying that works are required.
The faith and works that brough salvation were Christ's faith and works, not ours. Any faith we might obtain
is from the fruit of the Spirit, which is from the gift of salvation

No, I didn't misunderstand you.
I stated:
WE ARE SAVED BY OUR WORKS.

That is MY statement.

My question now would be:
Where does faith come in since I believe we are saved by works?

(putting forth an argument---no Christian believes they are saved by their works.
but let's go with it for a m oment....
It'll help to understand more about faith)

 

[rogerg]

What ARE works??

Works are anything that we might attempt to do to contribute to, or to acquire our salvation.
Anything that is not a gift, in that regard, is a work. Salvation is only given solely as a gift.

 

[rogerg]

Just a side issue.
Jesus came here to teach us how to be saved and to establish HIS Kingdome on earth.
If you read all the Kingdom scripture, you'll find that there is no need to explain HEAVEN.

I emphatically disagree with that. No one can understand things spiritual until they become saved,
so would be impossible to teach someone that even if it were possible to become saved that way, which it is not

1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[jaybo]

We are saved by grace. It's God's gift to us. Works are never required. They are a by-product of our being in Christ. What about people who, for one reason or another, can't do "works"? The elderly, those with disabilities, etc. What "works" are they required to do?

 

[rogerg]

Could you post your understanding of this and I'll respond tomorrow.

Okay, that's fine.
Our faith is not what saves. Christ's faith(fulness), works and obedience are what saves. At some point
in the life of an elected, His faith and works and obedience are reckoned unto them. Their faith comes to Christ
by the fruit of the Spirit through salvation, not to salvation.
Explaining our faith is difficult because it is something given by the Spirit
not manufactured of ourselves. However, my belief is that it manifests itself
in the core conviction that Christ alone, completely, and in all ways, is Saviour, we are not.
In perceiving Him as Saviour, we are more than willing to cease from our works for it because our faith and hope rests in Him and what He achieved, not what we might achieve - nothing more than Jesus is needed nor possible.
Now, does that mean we won't desire to do the good works of salvation? No, just the contrary,
to do so gives joy to those saved just by the doing -- it is not for gain, nor
to contribute to or leverage our salvation in any way, but just out of a pure heart.

Obviously, I can't explore all of faith's facets right here and now, so I hope this makes sense to you.
If I didn't answer your question, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Right.
But there are no grey zones in our spirit lives.
We either are living for God and doing our best to obey Him,
or we're living for the evil one and obeying him.

There is a disconnect:

MUST we obey?

The answer is never a Yes or No.

Those are both things you said but are the opposite. This happens when the way one actually lives and the way one tells the self how one thinks are disconnected. Essentially you say that there’s no “must” when it comes to obeying God (never a yes or no) AND if we don’t obey we’re living for the Devil. You left out living for the self.

Just thought I point that out.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do you believe every Christian is sinless?

I could ask you an equally absurd question, do you believe every christian is full of sinful ways.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course I agree.
God gives us a new heart.
We are cleansed from the inside out.

But could you give me a straight Yes or No....

Are we, as Christians, required to do good deeds/works?

You did not ask me but I will nevertheless give an answer. Are we, as Christians, required to good deeds/works? I suppose it depends upon what your goal is. If the goal is to "walk humbly with God" then the answer is yes. Same as in any relationship with a moral being, you are required to treat the other with a minimum amount of doing as you would like to be done to. If one mistreats the other, the relationship will eventually be over. This is easy to understand.

If you want to "keep" your salvation, that is, keep your "ticket to Heaven" then this begs the question as to why one who has been given a new heart, that is, a new attitude towards men and God, would wonder if they have to do good for those they now love (that is what the new heart is supposed to result in, a love for people.) It is sort of like a man asking if he has to do good things for his wife, now that the wedding is over.

As to what happens to the man who genuinely experiences forgiveness of sins, the love of God for him personally, a new heart, and eventually walks away from it because of the pleasures and riches of this world or the trouble that comes to him because he is a believer, well, there are different theologies that offer different answers, some very comforting and some discomforting. Both of the answers cannot be true but that is not the discussion here.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In that verse, the brother is Christ and thereby His salvation; the adversary is law

No, the scripture precludes that conclusion. You are to go and find your brother, and no Christian leaves where they are to go and find Jesus who is with us always. We also do not leave a place and of and find our salvation either. That makes no sense. The adversary might be the law although not always. Certainly the point where the adversary has you is a violation of the law, the law STILL in effect, I might add.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am not aware we can do any good works in our own strength however good our intentions are, you should perhaps read my study of faith and after reading this see if you agree with this study...I would appreciate some input, as I am trying myself to understand what faith is and how the works of Jesus flow into us, as we choose them.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm a study of amanuah (faith)

Dear brother and sister,

Do you really believe that no one can do anything good on their own strength? Nothing at all? Do you live like this?

What I am saying is while this sounds humble, you cannot live like this as it does not match there real world. There are good works that atheists do and they are not doing by faith or with God's help. God did not make us such that we cannot do anything good at all to anyone ever. Again, that sounds humble but if we think about it, it is saying that God made humans incapable of helping anyone ever, not a compliment to God.

The truth that you see every day is that we can do good for others, we just don't want to do so at times. We can give a little one a cup of cold water. We can help the man laying in the street beaten up by thugs. We can go and find the lost sheep or kid. We can help a little old lady cross the street. As you go through your day, certainly you expect normal people to help others. If you are lost, you expect a stranger to help you. You do not expect only God can help them help you.

It is freeing to have a view in your mind that matches the world outside your head. It is harder to insist upon a view that is not true in real life. Just some thoughts.

 

[Hopeful]

Quite the contrary. But I believe a Christian is like Jesus to growing degrees, thinks of others and their welfare more often than their own.

Of course.
But there is no "pattern" into which every Christians will fit.
You can't judge a man unfaithful because he isn't giddy and smiling all day.