Tasted Death for every Man !

setst777 said:

Both justification and God's saving grace are both accessed by our faith in Lord Jesus.

"Romans 5:1-2" states:

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

According to the above Passage, "through Christ" is the "peace of God" not "faith."

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No, it was faith itself that brought "the peace of God". Faith must justify in order to have peace. I explained that it is Christ's faith, His faith alone that pleased God; His faith alone has righteousness and righteousness is a requirement for justification and justification a requirement for peace with God. For man's faith to have any merit with God, it would need righteousness too, but if it could, then Christ would be unnecessary - but it doesn't have it - true saving faith must have righteousness to justify, so Christ's faith provided it. Any faith that a man may produce has no righteousness (see Phl 3:9) within itself because is of the law, and hence, cannot bring justification nor saving grace but only God's wrath because law brings God's wrath. How can grace be true grace if a man has to do something to obtain it? That is the equivalent of saying you have to do something in order to not have to do something - a logical absurdity: if grace is imputed, it can only be imputed fully and completely as a free gift or it isn't grace - that's what makes grace, grace.
Do you see the "not having my own righteousness" below? Paul tells us that man's faith has no righteousness - only Christ's faith does. If peace with God were by Christ as you've interpreted the verse to mean, then faith, of logical necessity, faith must also be Christ's faith, not ours; that is, the one (faith) gives justification the other (peace) is dependent upon. That is what makes Christ the Saviour and man not.

[Rom 5:16 KJV] 16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

setst777 said:

God {{{justifies}}} us by our faith in Christ, {{{just as}}} God accounted righteousness to Abraham because of Abraham's faith in God.

Romans 4:3 (WEB) 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]

So, we too, who believed in God, are justified (accounted righteousness), by faith in Lord Jesus:

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No. It was Christ's faith that was imputed to Abraham. Do you see the "faith was reckoned" below? Christ's faith was
reckoned to Abraham, which faith was righteous, by which, Abraham was deemed righteous by God, but because of Christ. faith, not Abraham's. To be saving faith, it must have righteousness too - so faith and righteousness can be viewed as synonymous - when you have one, you also have the other. Only Christ's faith has righteousness, man's does not, because man is not righteous. We are accounted righteous when (and if) Christ's faith is imputed, not by ours.
The " accounted for righteousness" in Romans 4:3, means that Abraham's belief (or faith) was accounted (reckoned) to him by God through His mercy and grace.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

setst777 said:

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

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Yes, but the "whoever" will be those whom Christ's faith is reckoned to, which are only the elect.

setst777 said:

Both justification (being accounted righteousness) and the grace of salvation are equally accessed by our faith in Lord Jesus.

• Since you say that our own faith would mean that we are justifying ourselves,
• Likewise, you must also say that our own faith saves ourselves.

But that as false on both counts, because not only by our faith in Jesus will God justifies us, but also saves us.

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You have it reversed, I think. Instead, I say that our faith can achieve neither of the above.
Perhaps I don't follow your point.

setst777 said:

• While it is the faith of Jesus that justification is possible, it is by our faith in Jesus that justification is given to us.
• While it is the faith of Jesus by which salvation is possible, it is by our faith in Jesus that we access that saving grace.

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See my prior explanations. What you said are logical impossibilities for those reasons.
Spiritually dead people are unable to believe. They must first be given spiritual life first, by which,
they also are given true faith as a fruit of the Spirit. Do you see that to know salvation (below), we must first become saved and that it does not occur in the reverse?

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

JLB said:

Yes, the elect refers to Jews.

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No, God divorced earthly Israel due to spiritual fornication, and cannot remarry them. By that, the earthly
Jews are as everyone else is.

setst777 said:

According to "2 Timothy 2:10" he is referring

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect [plural, chosen ones, masculine], that they [possessive pronoun subjective plural, masculine, referring back to the chosen ones] also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul is enduring all things for the sake of the elect, (who have not obtained the salvation that is in Christ Jesus) so that the elect may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

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Yes, and the elect are from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Some Jews are a part of the elect, but not because they are Jews but because they were individually chosen by God for it, otherwise, elect doesn't mean elect nor would Christian mean Christian.

brightfame52 said:

Again, you give Christ the credit for making salvation possible,

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Yes, thanks be to God.

brightfame52 said:

however you give man credit for making salvation a reality,

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It is our choice to serve Him or serve sin.
We can't serve two masters.
If you want to call salvation "credit", I am fine with that.
The responsibility is in our hands.
I will get the "credit" only if I endure faithfully until the end.

brightfame52 said:

you give man the most important part that saves from sin. You make man the saviour, christ the possible saviour.

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It is a "part" provided by Christ.
He gave us the option of whether to live or die.
Please don't label making the choice a bad thing, or some will not make that choice.
Their blood will be on your head.

rogerg said:

Yes, and the elect are from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Some Jews are a part of the elect, but not because they are Jews but because they were individually chosen by God for it, otherwise, elect doesn't mean elect nor would Christian mean Christian.

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2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect , that {{{they also}}} may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

"they also" means that, besides everyone else, those Paul now addresses his concern for his own people in the flesh (Israelites). the elect of God, that they also may also be saved, of which he labored so hard to convince.

setst777 said:

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect , that {{{they also}}} may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

"they also" means that, besides everyone else, those Paul now addresses his concern for his own people in the flesh (Israelites). the elect of God, that they also may also be saved, of which he labored so hard to convince.

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I don't follow your point. Are you saying they are elect (unto salvation) because they are Israelites? Or, are you
saying they are elect unto salvation because God chose them individually (unto salvation)? Which?

rogerg said:

No, it was faith itself that brought "the peace of God". Faith must justify in order to have peace. I explained that it is Christ's faith, His faith alone that pleased God; His faith alone has righteousness and righteousness is a requirement for justification and justification a requirement for peace with God. For man's faith to have any merit with God, it would need righteousness too, but if it could, then Christ would be unnecessary - but it doesn't have it - true saving faith must have righteousness to justify, so Christ's faith provided it. Any faith that a man may produce has no righteousness (see Phl 3:9) within itself because is of the law, and hence, cannot bring justification nor saving grace but only God's wrath because law brings God's wrath. How can grace be true grace if a man has to do something to obtain it? That is the equivalent of saying you have to do something in order to not have to do something - a logical absurdity: if grace is imputed, it can only be imputed fully and completely as a free gift or it isn't grace - that's what makes grace, grace.
Do you see the "not having my own righteousness" below? Paul tells us that man's faith has no righteousness - only Christ's faith does. If peace with God were by Christ as you've interpreted the verse to mean, then faith, of logical necessity, faith must also be Christ's faith, not ours; that is, the one (faith) gives justification the other (peace) is dependent upon. That is what makes Christ the Saviour and man not.

[Rom 5:16 KJV] 16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


No. It was Christ's faith that was imputed to Abraham. Do you see the "faith was reckoned" below? Christ's faith was
reckoned to Abraham, which faith was righteous, by which, Abraham was deemed righteous by God, but because of Christ. faith, not Abraham's. To be saving faith, it must have righteousness too - so faith and righteousness can be viewed as synonymous - when you have one, you also have the other. Only Christ's faith has righteousness, man's does not, because man is not righteous. We are accounted righteous when (and if) Christ's faith is imputed, not by ours.
The " accounted for righteousness" in Romans 4:3, means that Abraham's belief (or faith) was accounted (reckoned) to him by God through His mercy and grace.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes, but the "whoever" will be those whom Christ's faith is reckoned to, which are only the elect.


You have it reversed, I think. Instead, I say that our faith can achieve neither of the above.
Perhaps I don't follow your point.


See my prior explanations. What you said are logical impossibilities for those reasons.
Spiritually dead people are unable to believe. They must first be given spiritual life first, by which,
they also are given true faith as a fruit of the Spirit. Do you see that to know salvation (below), we must first become saved and that it does not occur in the reverse?

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Click to expand...

Both justification and God's saving grace are both accessed by our faith in Lord Jesus.
"Romans 5:1-2" states:
Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

According to the above Passage, "through Christ" is the "peace of God" not "faith."
But you cannot even accept the words right in front of your eyes.
I knew that would happen, because that is what you have been doing all along. So, I went a step further and actually proved by Scripture that Justification is by our faith, as follows:
God {{{justifies}}} us by our faith in Christ, {{{just as}}} God accounted righteousness to Abraham because of Abraham's faith in God.

Romans 4:3 (WEB) 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]
So, we too, who believed in God, are justified (accounted righteousness), by faith in Lord Jesus:
Romans 4:5 (WEB) 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but {{{believes in him}}} who justifies the ungodly, {{{his faith}}} is accounted for righteousness.

• In the same way that we are justified (accounted righteous) by faith in Lord Jesus,
• likewise we are also saved by God's grace by our faith in Lord Jesus - we gain access to God's saving grace by our faith in him.

Romans 5:2 (WEB) we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand
John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Both justification (being accounted righteousness) and the grace of salvation are equally accessed by our faith in Lord Jesus.

• Since you say that our own faith would mean that we are justifying ourselves,
• Likewise, you must also say that our own faith saves ourselves.

But that as false on both counts, because not only by our faith in Jesus will God justifies us, but also saves us.
Since you cannot read simple Scriptures, then there is no reason to respond further to you. What I wrote is for all others who will be viewing these posts, since these posts are posted eternally on this sight.

setst777 said:

Since you cannot read simple Scriptures, then there is no reason to respond further to you.

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Okay, then that makes it easier for the both of us.

rogerg said:

No, as a nation or a linage, the Jews are of the elect.

[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Regarding salvation, the "they also" (above) does not represent all of the Jews, only SOME of THEM; that is, the Jews that are elect are not so because they are Jews, they are elect only because God chose certain of them individually, just as He had all of the elect. Were it otherwise, then all Jews from Abraham unto the end of time must become saved, but that salvation did not, could not, and will not happen. The elect throughout time come from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

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God chose the Jews with which to reveal Himself for several reasons.
Not the least of which they are tribal and stay together and they were used to story-telling to the younger generations in order to pass down their heritage.

The Jews are THE ELECT.

For the above reasons.

Persons in the bible are elected for position, service, etc.
IOW, they are elected for either HOW or WHAT
but never WHO.

God does not create persons to send them to hell.
God loves His creation.
John 3:16

God would want all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

Jesus draws all men to Himself.
John 12:32

Your faith denies that God is merciful.
I pray that He is for your sake.
You blaspheme God continually.

rogerg said:

Okay, then that makes it easier for the both of us.

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It makes it easier for you anyway.
You don't have to keep hearing the truth.

setst777 said:

“2 Corinthians 5:14” says that the love of Christ “compels us (The Apostles). In context, Paul was speaking about himself and the other Apostles.



However, every true believer in Christ is compelled by the Spirit to live a holy life onto righteousness and love as a follower of Lord Jesus.



But “compelling” is not “controlling,” because many Christians refuse to live by the Spirit, and so they:



Grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32; Isaiah 63:10);

Quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19);

Insult (Hebrews 10:24-31);

Reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8),

Lie to (Acts 5:3), and

Test (Acts 5:9), the Spirit of God indwelling the believer.

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That first paragraph of yours is a big bite for you.

So, first, according to you, the Apostles are controlled by the love of Christ per 2 Corinthians 5:14, but Christians are not controlled by the love of Christ (God had me write to you that the "us" are Christians), so, in effect, you are saying the Apostles are not Christians.

Second, Paul and Timothy authored the letter to the Corinthians (Second Corinthians) together as recorded in 2 Corinthians 1:1, yet Timothy is not identified as an Apostle, so Paul includes Timothy in the "us" when Paul the Apostle wrote "the love of Christ controls us" in 2 Corinthians 5:14, a Christian named Timothy, so, in effect, you lied when you restricted God's loving control to the Apostles only, so you diligently fight against being controlled by Christ.

Thirdly, "compel" (irresistibly forced to do) and "control" (irresistibly forced to do) are synonyms in reference to 2 Corinthians 5:14 because "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28), and God's loving control always succeeds, so when you wrote "many Christians refuse to live by the Spirit" then you identified God as a weakling incapable of achieving loving control which is quite the opposite of the sayings of Christ!

Furthermore and fourth, when you wrote "many Christians refuse to live by the Spirit" then you demonstrated your ignorance because you are not describing Christians in your statement because the Christ of us Christians declares "when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the Truth" (John 16:13), so, according to your writing, you think non-Christians are Christians which makes you very confused; on the other hand, my precious and loving Lord and God Jesus Christ succeeds in all of His loving control, so we Christ believers are joyously controlled by our loving God.

Finally fifth, you think you possess ability beyond the Apostles' capabilities because you think that you are uncontrolled by Christ while you think you choose Christ, but, according to the Word of God, the Apostles are controlled by Christ while Christ exclusively chooses the Apostles.

That is a whole lot of lying there that you dis, so for your enlightenment, Lord Jesus says "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

Part 1 of 5 current

brightfame52 said:

Again you give man the credit for salvation, and christ for making it possible, you make man the saviour, thats idolatry friend

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No he gives credit because he believed on His name for the grace offered... God's grace thru our faith in Jesus.

We believed on His name... faith is not a work..

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me...

We have to open the door. We have to believe

One man makes people be his friends
While the other allows people to be his friends...

Who has the real friends?

brightfame52 said:

Again you give man the credit for salvation, and christ for making it possible, you make man the saviour, thats idolatry friend

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I give (some) men the credit of doing the right thing when brought the word of God.
Didn't you do the right thing when you were presented with the word of God ?
Scripture says..."So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17)
Your route to faith seems to be another way.

Hopeful 2 said:

I give (some) men the credit of doing the right thing when brought the word of God.
Didn't you do the right thing when you were presented with the word of God ?
Scripture says..."So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom 10:17)
Your route to faith seems to be another way.

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What's the use of this "conversation?"

Scripture Says said:

One man makes people be his friends
While the other allows people to be his friends...

Who has the real friends?

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Is this the "allows" you mean?

[Tit 3:3 KJV] 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV] 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

is this "makes"?

[Tit 3:4-7 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Answer: The latter of the two has the real friends.