I guess God, who is all loving and teaches that we are to forgive and love each other....
forgot to give to brightfame52 the characteristic of remorse.
Funny.
Tasted Death for every Man !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
forgot to give to brightfame52 the characteristic of remorse.
Funny.
setst777
Well belief in the Truth is a fruit of the Spirit, its a blessing of Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
If your faith/believing isnt a product of Sanctification of the Spirit, but only your flesh, its worthless,
Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Well belief in the Truth is a fruit of the Spirit, its a blessing of Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
If your faith/believing isnt a product of Sanctification of the Spirit, but only your flesh, its worthless,
Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Unfortunately, I have encountered other similar "Christians," mostly from the Calvinist camp. Calvinists believe their "God," who forms all people to do exactly according to His Sovereign Will, only love some people without any merit on their part, discriminately electing to save only those he formed to love, and forms the rest for eternal punishment. It seems they feel they can act in a similar manner to others, as their "God" does. I think "Calvinism" is a dangerous doctrine, especially to those who believe in it.
If a Calvinist feels that God shows favoritism to only those God formed to love, and God will form the rest to be eternally condemned, then I want no part of the god they believe in. My God, the God of the Bible, is righteous, holy, merciful, patient. God is Love. God is righteous in His judgments.
God's holy and righteous nature, and his incomprehensible love for all mankind is plainly and clearly taught throughout the Scriptures. The God of the Bible, who does not discriminate or show favoritism regarding salvation, but judges all men righteously, has no similarity to the "God" of Calvinism.
Last edited:
What more should it have done ?
By accepting it, our past sins are washed away.
Jesus didn't feel sorrow for my sins and repent of sin for me.
He didn't get baptized in His name for the remission of my sins.
He offered me eternal life, and I took the opportunity He made possible.
What did Jesus do for you ?
You seemed to have overlooked the "through our Lord Jesus Christ" part: "justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". It is through Jesus Christ's faith that one is justified, otherwise, if the faith were from us, we would then be justifying ourselves, not by Christ, that is, it depends upon who's faith is in view as to who is doing the justifying. So, by what you're saying, it wouldn't be Christ providing justification, it would be you - but that is not possible since man cannot justify himself - if he could, there would be no need for Christ. The verses you chose don't say it is by man, instead, they say, "through whom we also have our access by faith": the "whom" being Jesus Christ, not us. Was the verse intended to convey what you think it does, it would have to say, " justified by our faith, we have peace with God" since (according to you) it originates from our faith - a faith produced by our intellect, by which, peace with God and grace is given - but Christ alone established peace between God and man by His faith, man did not. So, with your justification model, Christ provides only a pass-through, and brings nothing besides that to someone's salvation.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Rom 8:30 KJV] 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Only those saved/born again, but not everyone, are they who become indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and so, they alone, are given true faith - the fruit of the Spirit.
[1Co 6:19 KJV] 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
[Rom 8:9 KJV] 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
You did not show that - just the opposite. Using your own logic, if someone believes first before being born again, then they already have faith, and there would be no need for them to be given that fruit because they would already have it - the receiving of it is what MAKES them truly believe. It is a gift first.
Do you remember that I showed you the "fruit of the Spirit" is genitive - that it comes from/by the Holy Spirit?
See my reply above.
Those Romans 1:18 - 32 are these:
[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Did you actually read 2 Thessalonians?
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Hebrews 10:24 - 31 is speaking of these:
[Luk 8:13 KJV] 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Likewise 2Tim 2:25 -26 - did you actually read those verses? Those don't know the truth - in order for them to know it, God must first give them repentance (save them). The "truth" is Jesus Christ, so they don't know Him until then, just as with all with all of the unsaved.
[2Ti 2:25-26 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Really, "no special regeneration"? What about this:
[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
It is the deceitfulness of sin through Satan which hardens the heart, and all from the womb were born into and remain in that state until and unless being saved.
Last edited:
Again, you give Christ the credit for making salvation possible, however you give man credit for making salvation a reality, you give man the most important part that saves from sin. You make man the saviour, christ the possible saviour.
Of course this is all correct.
The problem with calvinism is that the teachings actually change the very nature of God.
It's not a matter of having a doctrine wrong here or there, I'm sure every denomination gets one doctrine or another wrong. Luckily we're not saved by having all our doctrines correct.
But how will God judge those that have slandered His name?
How will He judge those that have taken His goodness, love, mercy and justice away from Him?
Anyone that reads the NT on their own, with no prior indoctrination, would NEVER come to the conclusion that the reformed believe.
Don't you get tired of repeating the same thing over and over again?
NOBODY, I mean NOBODY that believes in the Christian faith believes that man could save himself.
Now, why don't we move on and stop with this silliness??
It's silly to keep repeating something NO ONE believes.
Correct.
Don't you ?
You could look at it that way, as salvation is our choice.
In your sect, religion, faith, and conversion, may be forced on you, but not in mine.
It is either choose God or choose death.
God won't make up our mind for us.
Hardly.
I wonder why you even think of it that way.
God provided everything we need to be free of the wickedness we once embraced.
We didn't have to choose that freedom.
But some do choose it.
Again, you give Christ the credit for making salvation possible, however you give man credit for making salvation a reality, you give man the most important part that saves from sin. You make man the saviour, christ the possible saviour.
Was Saul of Tarsus lost before he meet Christ on the road to Damascus?
Yes, Saul was a Jew; Jews are elect.
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10
Paul desired for the elect (Jews) to also obtain salvation which is in Christ.
JLB
No, as a nation or a linage, the Jews are of the elect.
[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Regarding salvation, the "they also" (above) does not represent all of the Jews, only SOME of THEM; that is, the Jews that are elect are not so because they are Jews, they are elect only because God chose certain of them individually, just as He had all of the elect. Were it otherwise, then all Jews from Abraham unto the end of time must become saved, but that salvation did not, could not, and will not happen. The elect throughout time come from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
When people make statements like that, it usually means they consider only ethnic jews as Gods elect, hence salvation based on race, that's racial pride, the flesh
Both justification and God's saving grace are both accessed by our faith in Lord Jesus.
"Romans 5:1-2" states:
Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.
According to the above Passage, "through Christ" is the "peace of God" not "faith."
God {{{justifies}}} us by our faith in Christ, {{{just as}}} God accounted righteousness to Abraham because of Abraham's faith in God.
Romans 4:3 (WEB) 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6]
So, we too, who believed in God, are justified (accounted righteousness), by faith in Lord Jesus:
Romans 4:5 (WEB) 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but {{{believes in him}}} who justifies the ungodly, {{{his faith}}} is accounted for righteousness.
- In the same way that we are justified (accounted righteous) by faith in Lord Jesus,
- likewise we are also saved by God's grace by our faith in Lord Jesus - we gain access to God's saving grace by our faith in him.
John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Both justification (being accounted righteousness) and the grace of salvation are equally accessed by our faith in Lord Jesus.
- Since you say that our own faith would mean that we are justifying ourselves,
- Likewise, you must also say that our own faith saves ourselves.
- While it is the faith of Jesus that justification is possible, it is by our faith in Jesus that justification is given to us.
- While it is the faith of Jesus by which salvation is possible, it is by our faith in Jesus that we access that saving grace.
Those who believe are indwelt and regenerated (given life inside) by the Spirit (John 7:37-38).
John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Those who resist the Spirit (Acts 7:51) and refuse the Gospel invitation (Romans 10:21; John 3:18; Matthew 22:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:10) remain lost.
The ones God chose to regenerate, or to give a new birth, are those are believing in His Son after hearing the Gospel. We pass from Death to Life, which is regeneration, by Faith – not before.
John 5:24 (EWEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Only by faith (not before faith) will the Spirit indwell anyone:
John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Galatians 3:5 (NIV) 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law?
The fruits of the Spirit are the possession of those who have the Spirit living in them.
The Spirit will only indwell those who believe.
John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Galatians 3:5 (NIV) 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by believing what you heard?
Those who choose to continue in unbelief are finally blinded.
This Passage does teach that this is the order of the things mentioned. A person receives the Spirit by faith:
John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Galatians 3:5 (NIV) 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law?
Lord Jesus' teaching of this parable is showing how some will not believe, and some will believe and will not remain, and others who will believe and will continue in the faith.
Nothing in this passage teaches about regeneration, election, predestination, or false or true faith. These are all superimposed upon the text by Calvinists.
"recover themselves"
They were faithful Christians but began to oppose Timothy's teaching.
This Passage, in context, is teaching about Christians who oppose Timothy's teaching. If such believers remain belligerent, God may refuse to grant them repentance. But if he does still grant them repentance, then perhaps they may "recover themselves."
No one disagrees that we are not saved by our own righteousness.
No one disagrees that we were washed by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost.
But the Passage does not discuss HOW it happens. Other Passages do explain.
How do we gain God's mercy?
Luke 1:50 (WEB) His mercy is for generations and generations on those who fear him.
Luke 18:13 (WEB) 13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified
The regeneration (making alive) is by the indwelling Spirit, and we only receive the Spirit by faith:
John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Galatians 3:5 (NIV) 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law?
According to "2 Timothy 2:10" he is referring
2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect [plural, chosen ones, masculine], that they [possessive pronoun subjective plural, masculine, referring back to the chosen ones] also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Paul is enduring all things for the sake of the elect, (who have not obtained the salvation that is in Christ Jesus) so that the elect may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.