First sentence I saw when I logged on. Good reminder. Rare to believe this.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?
- Thread starter SolaScriptura
- Start date
2nd sentence I saw .... good !
Please provide evidence for this claim.
And yet the Father applies Pslams 102:25-27 to the Son, in Heb 1:10-12, right after saying of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.” The implication is very clear that Jesus is also Yahweh.
You’ve made a lot of claims about supposed errors in translation and given the supposed correct translation, but you have yet to provide one piece of evidence for any of them.
God's name and title Elohiym are not translated to keep it a secret.
Translation is from Aramaic. The Rabbi's changed the Hebrew language so God's name could not be spoken.
Yahwah means "Life Began."
Yahwah's title Elohiym means "God of the living ones."
But, again, where is your evidence?
Unable to post that info. Perhaps latter.
That’s the answer I thought I would get.
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
Because what you are saying is incorrect
Because your forum wont accept my jpeg image.
You don't have links? It will accept pictures for those who purchase the upgrade, as they take up a lot of storage, which costs additional money and is a reoccurring cost.
The Internet links have disappeared. Sorry. I will work on this issue, but may take some time.
Greetings Participants in this thread and Other Viewers,
I had a brief review of this thread. I consider that I have presented a different perspective to the normal view, and this “normal” view has been thoroughly represented by Free and others. I have attempted to answer some of the so-called verses and ideas that are used to represent this “normal” view. I certainly have not answered satisfactorily and clearly some of the more difficult verses and ideas. Nevertheless I have given a reasonable overall view and I do not see the need to retract or alter any of my posts. I have given the following Posts #11, 14, 16, 24, 29, 110, 115, 128, 133, 135, 138, 158, 166, 168, 176, 190, 204, 213, 216 and 218.
My interest in this subject of Elohim and the parallel subject of the Yahweh Name was awakened in a Young People's Weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW. I was 19, over 60 years ago, and the event is a happy memory for me, not only because of the interest in this subject, but it was the start of my courting my future wife, and we were married 4 years later and now married for 56 years. I also consider the subject of the Cherubim, the Seraphim of Isaiah 6 and the Living Ones of Revelation 4 are also parallel to the subject of Elohim and the Yahweh Name.
Our Youth Leader also conducted a class and we used a Book written by the major pioneer of our present fellowship. We used the Australian Edition and there was a preface added that gave an additional section called "Index to the Titles of Deity". The Original Edition and the fairly recent English Edition do not have this section. We were encouraged to mark our Bibles to distinguish between the various titles, for example we coloured in the occurrences of "El" to distinguish from the much more used title "Elohim" which we did not colour.
The book was written as a record of the discussions held in 1858 in New York. Our Pioneer was invited to address an audience of Jews and he had been invited by a Jew who had been converted to Christianity and held the doctrine of the Trinity. Instead of supporting the Christian Jew, our pioneer expounded the One God, Yahweh of the OT to the great disappointment of the Christian Trinitarian Jew.
I still maintain my definition of "Elohim" which I stated in my first Post #11.
On the subject of "Elohim", the title of Jacob's altar has been of interest:
Genesis 33:18–20 (KJV): 18 And Jacob came to Shalem, a city of Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Padanaram; and pitched his tent before the city. 19 And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem’s father, for an hundred pieces of money. 20 And he erected there an altar, and called it Elelohe-Israel.
This is similar in the following versions: KJV, RV, RSV, NASB and ESV and the margin rendition of these all agree with each other and have "God, the God of Israel".
My understanding of this is the fact that after the original Bethel encounter and now with his return and deliverance from Esau, Jacob was very conscious of the Providence of God in his life, and he attributed this to God's ministering agents, the Angels. I suggest that Jacob called the altar "El (The One God, who is the Source of Strength and Power), (Who works in and through) Elohe" (the Mighty Ones or the Angels whose strength is derived from the One God "El").
I also consider that "Elohim" in Deuteronomy 6:4 can also be expanded to include not only the Angels, but also the Judges, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Faithful:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV): Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
"He who will be revealed in and through our Mighty Ones is one He who will be".
Kind regards
Trevor
I had a brief review of this thread. I consider that I have presented a different perspective to the normal view, and this “normal” view has been thoroughly represented by Free and others. I have attempted to answer some of the so-called verses and ideas that are used to represent this “normal” view. I certainly have not answered satisfactorily and clearly some of the more difficult verses and ideas. Nevertheless I have given a reasonable overall view and I do not see the need to retract or alter any of my posts. I have given the following Posts #11, 14, 16, 24, 29, 110, 115, 128, 133, 135, 138, 158, 166, 168, 176, 190, 204, 213, 216 and 218.
My interest in this subject of Elohim and the parallel subject of the Yahweh Name was awakened in a Young People's Weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW. I was 19, over 60 years ago, and the event is a happy memory for me, not only because of the interest in this subject, but it was the start of my courting my future wife, and we were married 4 years later and now married for 56 years. I also consider the subject of the Cherubim, the Seraphim of Isaiah 6 and the Living Ones of Revelation 4 are also parallel to the subject of Elohim and the Yahweh Name.
Our Youth Leader also conducted a class and we used a Book written by the major pioneer of our present fellowship. We used the Australian Edition and there was a preface added that gave an additional section called "Index to the Titles of Deity". The Original Edition and the fairly recent English Edition do not have this section. We were encouraged to mark our Bibles to distinguish between the various titles, for example we coloured in the occurrences of "El" to distinguish from the much more used title "Elohim" which we did not colour.
The book was written as a record of the discussions held in 1858 in New York. Our Pioneer was invited to address an audience of Jews and he had been invited by a Jew who had been converted to Christianity and held the doctrine of the Trinity. Instead of supporting the Christian Jew, our pioneer expounded the One God, Yahweh of the OT to the great disappointment of the Christian Trinitarian Jew.
I still maintain my definition of "Elohim" which I stated in my first Post #11.
On the subject of "Elohim", the title of Jacob's altar has been of interest:
Genesis 33:18–20 (KJV): 18 And Jacob came to Shalem, a city of Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Padanaram; and pitched his tent before the city. 19 And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem’s father, for an hundred pieces of money. 20 And he erected there an altar, and called it Elelohe-Israel.
This is similar in the following versions: KJV, RV, RSV, NASB and ESV and the margin rendition of these all agree with each other and have "God, the God of Israel".
My understanding of this is the fact that after the original Bethel encounter and now with his return and deliverance from Esau, Jacob was very conscious of the Providence of God in his life, and he attributed this to God's ministering agents, the Angels. I suggest that Jacob called the altar "El (The One God, who is the Source of Strength and Power), (Who works in and through) Elohe" (the Mighty Ones or the Angels whose strength is derived from the One God "El").
I also consider that "Elohim" in Deuteronomy 6:4 can also be expanded to include not only the Angels, but also the Judges, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Faithful:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV): Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
"He who will be revealed in and through our Mighty Ones is one He who will be".
Kind regards
Trevor
Continuing from my previous post, I decided to start again what I did over 50 years ago. In my late teens or early 20s I marked the Divine Titles in a KJV Oxford Wide Margin Bible. Unfortunately this Bible became worn out and some of the pages became loose. I now use a RV/KJV Interlinear Bible and I sadly miss the markings that I had in the old KJV Bible. I decided to start this as a new project and this morning I marked the first four occurrences of "El" and these were found in Genesis 14:
Genesis 14:18–22 (KJV): 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. 21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. 22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
In my youth I can only remember colouring these titles without giving much thought to why the individual titles were used in a particular context. We were taught that "El" means "Strength or Power" and now looking at the context this particular title is fitting in that God had been Strong and Powerful to help Abraham to deliver Lot from capture. As well as marking my RV/KJV I also decided to colour the same Titles in my Bible Program
I also remembered that I had heard that the Hebrew word "el" was a simple everyday word that meant "power" and I had encountered the following as evidence of this fact:
Genesis 31:29 (KJV): It is in the power of my hand to do you hurt: but the God of your father spake unto me yesternight, saying, Take thou heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yahweh is another of the many attributes. God has no need for a person name. . . he is God not man ,
Elohim. . . two gods or what I would call the dynamic dual.
One not seen the eternal Father the other seen the Son of man, Jesus. The promised three day and night demonstration. Beginning in the garden of Gethsemane moved to the hill or called cross the bloody demonstration. And last the tomb the demonstration of faith (unseen) of the two working as one
Elohim. . . .. .Two gods.
John 10:34-36 King James Version34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Christians gods. . . as sons of God,
1 John 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The Father and Son the mutual agreement. Three is a crowd
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Greetings Mr. G Lee,
Isaiah 45:20–22 (KJV): 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (Yahweh)? and there is no God (Elohim) else beside me; a just God (El) and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God (El), and there is none else.
It does not say "We are Yahweh" and there is only one "El", one Person, One Being not two.
Kind regards
Trevor
Exodus 3:11–15 (KJV): 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM (or I Will Be who/that I Will Be): and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM (or I Will Be) hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD (or Yahweh, He Who Will Be) God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Only One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, and is the Son of God by birth, character, and resurrection.
Isaiah 45:20–22 (KJV): 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (Yahweh)? and there is no God (Elohim) else beside me; a just God (El) and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God (El), and there is none else.
It does not say "We are Yahweh" and there is only one "El", one Person, One Being not two.
Kind regards
Trevor
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SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
The Person Who called to Moses out of the Burning Bush is identified in Exodus 3.2 as The Messenger of YHWH
In verse 4 this same Person is called YHWH and Elohim
This same Messenger of YHWH says to Moses in verse 14 I AM WHO I AM
This Person is NOT God the Father!
Greetings again SolaScriptura,
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, the person was an Angel, a Messenger sent by the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.
Only in the sense that the Angel represented God and spoke on His behalf. The Person cannot be both the Messemger of Yahweh and Yahweh Himself.
Yes, that was the message that the Angel conveyed describing Yahweh. Again the Person is the Messenger of Yahweh, and therefore he cannot Himself be the Name, that is, the Person who is described by the Yahweh Name.
Now you are mixing your logic with what is being revealed. Yes, the language is difficult but your solution is erroneous. The Person in the Bush was the Angel, not God the Father. God the Father was seated upon His Throne in heaven. The Angel was a messenger, a minister sent forth to help Moses deliver Israel out of Egypt. Please also consider my thread "The Yahweh Name" and the link to this thread can be found in Post #218.
Kind regards
Trevor
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SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
The "Messenger", is FROM Yahweh", and is a DISTINCT Person. However, this same Messenger, Who is sent by Yahweh, is also Yahweh, because they are TWO distinct Persons!
A created angel can NEVER say to anyone I AM WHO I AM.
The SAME Messenger Who called Moses from the Burning Bush, says in verse 6
"Then He continued, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look at God"
Show just ONE verse in the entire Bible, where ANY created angel or human can ever say this?
Note what this Messenger says in verse 6, "’ā·nō·ḵî", in Hebrew, which is SINGULAR, and FIRST PERSON, I AM He does not say that He "represented" Elohim, or that He was speaking on behalf of Elohim, but that HE IS ELOHIM!
This DISTINCTION is also clear in Isaiah. In 9:6, which is NOT the Father, as it clearly says, "For to us a Child is Born, to us a Son is given". HIS Name (šə·mōw, masculine, SINGULAR), is called, “’êl Gibbôr”. In 10:21, the EXACT SAME “’êl Gibbôr”, is used for ANOTHER Person, the Father. In BOTH places it is correctly translated in English, MIGHTY GOD, or, literally, "GOD-MIGHTY".
These are FACTS that you simply cannot ignore, or get away from!
Greetings again SolaScriptura,
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your perspective but I believe that the Angel is a Messenger.
Kind regards
Trevor
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
so you just disregard what the Bible actually says, because your "beliefs" don't allow for more than One Person to be called YHWH?
answer this, https://christianforums.net/threads/yahweh-sends-yahweh.101710/