˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[CherubRam]

Thanks , looks like they believe Jesus was created at the moment Mary became pregnant .

"We believe that God was literally Jesus’ father, in that God created Jesus’s life in Mary ."

It always make me wonder why people come up with beliefs that leaves them no choice but having to argue against not just one, but with a multitude of scriptures that clearly contradicts them.

Saying that Yahshua is the Father does not even agree with the Trinity doctrine.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

the Hebrew here is

“šə·ma‘ yiś·rā·’êl Yah·weh ’ĕ·lō·hê·nū Yah·weh ’e·ḥāḏ”

Which can be translated in English as either

“Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God Yahweh is Unique”
or
“Hear,O Israel: Yahweh our God Yahweh is the Only One”

This use of the Hebrew "’e·ḥāḏ”, is very clear in Song of Solomon, 6:9;

"But my dove, my perfect one, is unique (’a·ḥaṯ): She is her mother’s only (’a·ḥaṯ) daughter" (NASB)

This Teaches the UNIQUENESS of the One True God of Israel, in relation to all other so called "gods", which are false.

As we see in Psalm 18:31, “For who is God, except the LORD? And who is a Rock, except our God?”

In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus Christ is "’êl Gibbôr", and in 10:21, the Father is "’êl Gibbôr". In the New World Translation of the Bible which is published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, who deny the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God, translate the Hebrew in both places, "Mighty God". It is clear to the honest person, that in these two verses, we have TWO distinct Persons Who are EQUALLY MIGHTY GOD. This is conclusive evidence that the Godhead cannot be just One Person, the Father, because Jesus Christ is EQUAL to the Father, as MIGHTY GOD.

My objection to the traditional doctrine of the trinity, that is, "three co-equal persons", is mostly due to the inconsistency of the word "person's" definition. In Daniel 7 there were the Son of Man and the Ancient of Days, those are two distinct figures, I have no objection to that; however, Jesus the Son is a literal, physical person who minitered to his disciples in first century Holy Land, when God the Father is described as a person, it's spoken in a figurative sense, you know, the product of anthropomorphism and anthropopathism - attributing human form and emotion to a non-human entity. Therefore, Jesus is God's presence between heaven and earth in human form - "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the son of man." (Jn. 1:51) So please understand that it's not about the Scripture, but the Church's teaching and interpretation.

 

[SolaScriptura]

plural "˒ĕlōhı̂m"BY HIM
THROUGH HIM
IN HIM

What's the difference?

I don't really understand your post above.
I know a lot is lost when translating....
but I have to trust the translators who know Greek and the culture of the times.

I agree with you that there is more than one Person in the Godhead that created.
God Father had the THOUGHT, THE REASON --- The Logos.

God the Son did the actual creating.
I do believe John stated this.

The Logos, Who is Jesus Christ, is an actual Person, Who is distinct from the Father and Holy Spirit. He is not just a "thought" or "reason". Jesus is as much as Almighty God as the Father and Holy Spirit are.

Jesus Christ did the actual Creating as He is The Creator. The Father also did the actual Creating, as did the Holy Spirit. The Three distinct, equal Persons in the Godhead, are the plural "˒ĕlōhı̂m", in Genesis 1:1

 

[SolaScriptura]

I don't know what work you're speaking of .....
My NASB states the following:

Genesis 1:1-7
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. BARA - FROM NOTHING
2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
3Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so ASAH - FROM SOMETHING


I understand that God first CREATED, BARA, the universe from NOTHING.

THEN, from what already existed, God MADE the expanse... ASAH, separated the expanse which was ALREADY PRESENT.

You don't agree?

Then why use two different words?

No I don't agree.

I don't know what work you're speaking of .....
My NASB states the following:

Genesis 1:1-7
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. BARA - FROM NOTHING
2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
3Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so ASAH - FROM SOMETHING


I understand that God first CREATED, BARA, the universe from NOTHING.

THEN, from what already existed, God MADE the expanse... ASAH, separated the expanse which was ALREADY PRESENT.

You don't agree?

Then why use two different words?

I don't agree with your rather oversimplified explaining of these two Hebrew words

You are trying to show that bârâʼ, refers to Creation out of nothing; and ʻâsâh, as Creation from already existing matter. Your main basis for this, is to show that when ʻâsâh is used fro the Holy Spirit in Job 33:4, that He is not here referred to as The Creator, as equivalent to bârâʼ, as in Genesis 1:1. This is simply incorrect.

In Isaiah 45:12 it says

"I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded" (NKJV)

The English "made" is the Hebrew ʻâsâh; and "created", is bârâʼ. Here ʻâsâh is used at the equivalent of bârâʼ, as in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God bârâʼ the heavens and the earth". In this verse, bârâʼ is used as Creating man, who was made from the already existing earth.

The use of different words is very common, like for God, we have the plural ˒ĕlōhı̂m, as well as the singular, ˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah. In the Greek New Testament, our English word "come", is represented in the Greek text by over 30 different words!

Isaiah 54:5, is very interesting:

"For your Maker is your husband; Yahweh of Armies is His Name. The Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer. He will be called the God of the whole earth" (WEB)

"Maker" in the Hebrew is ‘ō·śa·yiḵ, which is the masculine PLURAL, literally MAKERS.

However, in 51:13, we read, "And you forget Yahweh your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens And laid the foundations of the earth..."

Here "Maker" in the Hebrew is ‘ō·śe·ḵā, which is masculine SINGULAR.

Clearly there is more than One Person Who is GOD, Who Created the entire Universe

 

[SolaScriptura]

My objection to the traditional doctrine of the trinity, that is, "three co-equal persons", is mostly due to the inconsistency of the word "person's" definition. In Daniel 7 there were the Son of Man and the Ancient of Days, those are two distinct figures, I have no objection to that; however, Jesus the Son is a literal, physical person who minitered to his disciples in first century Holy Land, when God the Father is described as a person, it's spoken in a figurative sense, you know, the product of anthropomorphism and anthropopathism - attributing human form and emotion to a non-human entity. Therefore, Jesus is God's presence between heaven and earth in human form - "Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the son of man." (Jn. 1:51) So please understand that it's not about the Scripture, but the Church's teaching and interpretation.

The English word "person", is best defined as: “A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed).

To show the distinction of "Persons" in the Godhead, we read of the Father as "sending" Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Where the "sender" is not the same "Person" as the "sent". This does not make the Father any "greater" than Jesus Christ in the Eternal Godhead.

In Zechariah 2:6-11, we read:

“Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north,’ says Yahweh; ‘for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the sky,’ says Yahweh. ‘Come, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon.’ For Yahweh of Armies says: ‘For Honor He has sent Me to the nations which plundered you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For, behold, I will shake My hand over them, and they will be a plunder to those who served them; and you will know that Yahweh of Armies has sent Me. Sing and rejoice, daughter of Zion; for, behold, I Come, and I will dwell within you,’ says Yahweh. Many nations shall join themselves to Yahweh in that day, and shall be My people; and I will dwell among you, and you shall know that Yahweh of Armies has sent Me to you”

This is one of the clearest passages in the Old Testament, where we read of Two distinct Persons, Who are called, Yahweh.

The passage teaches about the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is clear that the Speaker is Yahweh, Who says that He is “Sent” by Another Person, Who is “Yahweh of Armies”. The One Who is “Sent”, cannot be the same Person, as the One who “Sends”, they are very much distinct, but coequal.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The English word "person", is best defined as: “A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed).

To show the distinction of "Persons" in the Godhead, we read of the Father as "sending" Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Where the "sender" is not the same "Person" as the "sent". This does not make the Father any "greater" than Jesus Christ in the Eternal Godhead.

In Zechariah 2:6-11, we read:

“Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north,’ says Yahweh; ‘for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the sky,’ says Yahweh. ‘Come, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon.’ For Yahweh of Armies says: ‘For Honor He has sent Me to the nations which plundered you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For, behold, I will shake My hand over them, and they will be a plunder to those who served them; and you will know that Yahweh of Armies has sent Me. Sing and rejoice, daughter of Zion; for, behold, I Come, and I will dwell within you,’ says Yahweh. Many nations shall join themselves to Yahweh in that day, and shall be My people; and I will dwell among you, and you shall know that Yahweh of Armies has sent Me to you”

This is one of the clearest passages in the Old Testament, where we read of Two distinct Persons, Who are called, Yahweh.

The passage teaches about the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is clear that the Speaker is Yahweh, Who says that He is “Sent” by Another Person, Who is “Yahweh of Armies”. The One Who is “Sent”, cannot be the same Person, as the One who “Sends”, they are very much distinct, but coequal.

No, you don't get it. I'm not denying the "two distinct" part. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us", that's Jesus the Son. The Word was in the beginning with God, "flesh" and "us" were not. Nowhere in that passage you quoted explicitly says YHWH of hosts is a man of flesh and blood, yet Jesus of Nazerath is a man of flesh and blood, anyone who denies that denies his humanity and thus guilty of docetism heresy. A "spiritual, self-conscious being" can't be crucified, buried and resurrected, Jesus was.

 

[SolaScriptura]

No, you don't get it. I'm not denying the "two distinct" part. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us", that's Jesus the Son. The Word was in the beginning with God, "flesh" and "us" were not. Nowhere in that passage you quoted explicitly says YHWH of hosts is a man of flesh and blood, yet Jesus of Nazerath is a man of flesh and blood, anyone who denies that denies his humanity and thus guilty of docetism heresy. A "spiritual, self-conscious being" can't be crucified, buried and resurrected, Jesus was.

Jesus Christ did not begin His existence at His Birth from the Virgin Mary. The Word, Jesus Christ, has always existed with the Father from eternity past, and has always been Yahweh. As Paul says in the Original, uncorrupted reading in 1 Timothy 3:16, "θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί", GOD was made visible in the flesh. At His Incarnation, One of the Three Persons of the Eternal Godhead, Who remained Yahweh (μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων, Philippians 2:6), took upon Himself the "very nature" (μορφὴν δούλου, Philippians 2:7), of humans, sin excepted; thereby becoming the God-Man.

Jesus Christ is not a mere human being, who was simply "divine", or "adopted" by the Father, etc. He IS always YHWH, as is the Father and Holy Spirit.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jesus Christ did not begin His existence at His Birth from the Virgin Mary. The Word, Jesus Christ, has always existed with the Father from eternity past, and has always been Yahweh. As Paul says in the Original, uncorrupted reading in 1 Timothy 3:16, "θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί", GOD was made visible in the flesh. At His Incarnation, One of the Three Persons of the Eternal Godhead, Who remained Yahweh (μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων, Philippians 2:6), took upon Himself the "very nature" (μορφὴν δούλου, Philippians 2:7), of humans, sin excepted; thereby becoming the God-Man.

Jesus Christ is not a mere human being, who was simply "divine", or "adopted" by the Father, etc. He IS always YHWH, as is the Father and Holy Spirit.

Jesus is God's human form, "manifested in the flesh, justified (or vindicated) by the spirit". "Three persons of the eternal godhead" rhetoric only makes it confusing and complicated because of the subtle difference in the definition of "person". Jesus Christ as a PERSON did begin His existence at His birth from the Virgin Mary. "Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh," (Rom. 1:3) His physical, bodily form is an inalienable part of who he is. Of course Jesus is not "merely" a human being, but he is a human being like you and me. During his ministry, he rarely referred to himself as Son of God, but very frequently as Son of man.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus is God's human form, "manifested in the flesh, justified (or vindicated) by the spirit". "Three persons of the eternal godhead" rhetoric only makes it confusing and complicated because of the subtle difference in the definition of "person". Jesus Christ as a PERSON did begin His existence at His birth from the Virgin Mary. "Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh," (Rom. 1:3) His physical, bodily form is an inalienable part of who he is. Of course Jesus is not "merely" a human being, but he is a human being like you and me. During his ministry, he rarely referred to himself as Son of God, but very frequently as Son of man.

this is very much unbiblical

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

this is very much unbiblical

What's really unbiblical is asceticism (denial of all bodily indulgence), gnostic dualism (mind over body, spirit over matter), docetism (Jesus was an illusion of God). These have been the dominant philosophies in Christianity throughout church history, but they are all heresies, non of them is biblical.

 

[SolaScriptura]

What's really unbiblical is asceticism (denial of all bodily indulgence), gnostic dualism (mind over body, spirit over matter), docetism (Jesus was an illusion of God). These have been the dominant philosophies in Christianity throughout church history, but they are all heresies, non of them is biblical.

You say that, "Jesus Christ as a PERSON did begin His existence at His birth from the Virgin Mary", this is great HERESY!

 

[GodsGrace]

You say that, "Jesus Christ as a PERSON did begin His existence at His birth from the Virgin Mary", this is great HERESY!

I agree with you but also understand how Jesus had a beginning as a human but always existed as Son and 2nd Person of the Godhead.

Just here to say that your post is being derailed and becoming about the Trinity. It's OK with me if it's OK with you.

I owe you 2 replies.
Later.

 

[GodsGrace]

You say that, "Jesus Christ as a PERSON did begin His existence at His birth from the Virgin Mary", this is great HERESY!

I find that no matter how we try to explain the Trinity we fall into heresy!
I do this with kids, preteen, and it's not easy.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I agree with you but also understand how Jesus had a beginning as a human but always existed as Son and 2nd Person of the Godhead.

Just here to say that your post is being derailed and becoming about the Trinity. It's OK with me if it's OK with you.

I owe you 2 replies.
Later.

Jesus Christ, Who is eternally YHWH, at His Incarnation, took upon Himself the very nature of humans, with the exception of sin. This human nature "began" at the time Jesus entered the womb of the Virgin Mary, as the Apostle John says, "the Word BECAME flesh", that is, the Word Who is already Almighty God in verse 1, and coequal and coeternal with the Father, "BECOMES" something that He was not before, the God-Man. When you looked upon Jesus Christ, He looked like a normal human being. However, essentially, He is completely God and completely Man, as before the Fall, being sinless.

The thread is about the use of ˒ĕlōhı̂m, which is masculine, plural, which is used in the Bible because God is not just the Father, as some wrongly suppose, but THREE distinct PERSONS, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Who are 100% coequal, coeternal and coessential, in the Eternal Godhead.

I can discuss the Trinity anywhere and at any time, as it is the MOST IMPORTANT Doctrine in the entire Bible. Denial of this Doctrine will damn a soul to eternal punishment.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I find that no matter how we try to explain the Trinity we fall into heresy!
I do this with kids, preteen, and it's not easy.

I don't see how?

It is very plain as taught in the Bible. We have one GOD, or GODHEAD. And, there are THREE distinct PERSONS Who are equally called GOD, and YHWH in the Bible, Who are completely equal in the GODHEAD.

The Trinity is a Great Mystery, and not easy to understand, but is explainable by the help of the Holy Spirit. We are called to simply believe in this Great Doctrine, not to pick it apart. the same is for the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, Who entered time, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, while remaining Almighty God, and taking upon Himself the very nature of humans, sin excepted, thereby the God-Man.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You say that, "Jesus Christ as a PERSON did begin His existence at His birth from the Virgin Mary", this is great HERESY!

The Word was God in the beginning, the Word became flesh at the conception, that's the difference with about 4000 yeas in between, and that's not a heresy.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I find that no matter how we try to explain the Trinity we fall into heresy!
I do this with kids, preteen, and it's not easy.

Well imagine you set up a Zoom meeting, trinity is you, your image on your local client and your image on your listeners' client. You get to communicate with your listeners via Zoom, but you're still you, you're not split into three or more persons.

 

[GodsGrace]

Saying that Yahshua is the Father does not even agree with the Trinity doctrine.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

If each member of the Trinity is GOD, then one cannot be greater than the other.
Otherwise there's a problem with the Trinity.
However, I do agree with you that calling Yeshua the Father does create a problem since we're getting two PERSONS mixed up as ONE.

As you must surely understand from your post....there is One God,,,but three Persons...
each Person is separate and has a different name.

 

[SolaScriptura]

The Word was God in the beginning, the Word became flesh at the conception, that's the difference with about 4000 yeas in between, and that's not a heresy.

You said that Jesus was not a Person before His Birth from the Virgin Mary.

This means that prior to this Jesus Christ did not exist as Almighty God

This is HERESY

 

[GodsGrace]

The Logos, Who is Jesus Christ, is an actual Person, Who is distinct from the Father and Holy Spirit. He is not just a "thought" or "reason". Jesus is as much as Almighty God as the Father and Holy Spirit are.

Jesus Christ did the actual Creating as He is The Creator. The Father also did the actual Creating, as did the Holy Spirit. The Three distinct, equal Persons in the Godhead, are the plural "˒ĕlōhı̂m", in Genesis 1:1

I think we agree on the Trinity. I may not be expressing myself properly.
The meaning of LOGOS is the reason of God. It's a part of God. Jesus always existed as the Logos of God.
Since LOGOS is a part of God....He IS God. Jesus is a representation of the LOGOS of God.
§And of course all 3 are God.

As to your second sentence...
God Father is creator
God Son did the creating
God Holy Spirit's work does not include creation.

Each One has their very own work to do, and the work of the Holy Spirit is not to create.
I't's to help us to keep God's word, to comfort us, to be our paraclete, to convinct...
more, I'm sure.