˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[GodsGrace]

No I don't agree.


I don't agree with your rather oversimplified explaining of these two Hebrew words

You are trying to show that bârâʼ, refers to Creation out of nothing; and ʻâsâh, as Creation from already existing matter. Your main basis for this, is to show that when ʻâsâh is used fro the Holy Spirit in Job 33:4, that He is not here referred to as The Creator, as equivalent to bârâʼ, as in Genesis 1:1. This is simply incorrect.

In Isaiah 45:12 it says

"I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded" (NKJV)

The English "made" is the Hebrew ʻâsâh; and "created", is bârâʼ. Here ʻâsâh is used at the equivalent of bârâʼ, as in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God bârâʼ the heavens and the earth". In this verse, bârâʼ is used as Creating man, who was made from the already existing earth.

The use of different words is very common, like for God, we have the plural ˒ĕlōhı̂m, as well as the singular, ˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah. In the Greek New Testament, our English word "come", is represented in the Greek text by over 30 different words!

Isaiah 54:5, is very interesting:

"For your Maker is your husband; Yahweh of Armies is His Name. The Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer. He will be called the God of the whole earth" (WEB)

"Maker" in the Hebrew is ‘ō·śa·yiḵ, which is the masculine PLURAL, literally MAKERS.

However, in 51:13, we read, "And you forget Yahweh your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens And laid the foundations of the earth..."

Here "Maker" in the Hebrew is ‘ō·śe·ḵā, which is masculine SINGULAR.

Clearly there is more than One Person Who is GOD, Who Created the entire Universe

I'm sorry SS, you're confusing me. I'm not a scholar.

Could you explain those two words using ONLY Genesis 1:1-7 as I did?

Also, let me say that this is not extremely important to me, but I would like to understand.
I've always known these two words to be rather simple and also different. I feel like you're making a case that they mean about the same.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus Christ, Who is eternally YHWH, at His Incarnation, took upon Himself the very nature of humans, with the exception of sin. This human nature "began" at the time Jesus entered the womb of the Virgin Mary, as the Apostle John says, "the Word BECAME flesh", that is, the Word Who is already Almighty God in verse 1, and coequal and coeternal with the Father, "BECOMES" something that He was not before, the God-Man. When you looked upon Jesus Christ, He looked like a normal human being. However, essentially, He is completely God and completely Man, as before the Fall, being sinless.

The thread is about the use of ˒ĕlōhı̂m, which is masculine, plural, which is used in the Bible because God is not just the Father, as some wrongly suppose, but THREE distinct PERSONS, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Who are 100% coequal, coeternal and coessential, in the Eternal Godhead.

I can discuss the Trinity anywhere and at any time, as it is the MOST IMPORTANT Doctrine in the entire Bible. Denial of this Doctrine will damn a soul to eternal punishment.

There's a small nuance here that I can't quite get a hold of.
But basically we agree.

The difference between our understanding might be the USE of the word Elohim.

Elohim is GOD...ok.

To my understanding GOD is the entirety of the Godhead.
Now....Can we also call that GOD FATHER?

OR does God Father become distinct from GOD?
IOW, Is GOD the CONCEPT and God FATHER the Person?

Are you understanding me?

I wish JLB would participate.
He believes exactly as you do.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't see how?

It is very plain as taught in the Bible. We have one GOD, or GODHEAD. And, there are THREE distinct PERSONS Who are equally called GOD, and YHWH in the Bible, Who are completely equal in the GODHEAD.

The Trinity is a Great Mystery, and not easy to understand, but is explainable by the help of the Holy Spirit. We are called to simply believe in this Great Doctrine, not to pick it apart. the same is for the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, Who entered time, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, while remaining Almighty God, and taking upon Himself the very nature of humans, sin excepted, thereby the God-Man.

Agreed !
It's when we begin to pick it apart that it becomes all entangled.

But here's an example of how any explanation can fall into heresy.

The Water example.
Water can be liquid, solid or gas.

This would be modulism. A heresy.
And yet kids understand this very well.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well imagine you set up a Zoom meeting, trinity is you, your image on your local client and your image on your listeners' client. You get to communicate with your listeners via Zoom, but you're still you, you're not split into three or more persons.

With all due respect Carry, I don't think this example would work well.
I don't even know what a local client is.
And it sounds like this would be similar to the PARENT, BROTHER, SON example.
Which is also heresy, BTW.
Can't remember which one right now...
But there is only ONE PERSON in that example, and the Trinity has three PERSONS.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You said that Jesus was not a Person before His Birth from the Virgin Mary.

This means that prior to this Jesus Christ did not exist as Almighty God

This is HERESY

Then again, you have to decide what exactly qualifies as a PERSON. You said Jesus is an actual person distinct from God and the spirit, that's because he's a real historic figure with a human body. God cannot be and was not crucified, the Holy Spirit cannot be and was not crucified, Jesus was crucified. An actual person is a human being in flesh and blood, if you call Jesus a person, then don't call God and the Holy Spirit persons, it's not the same.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I think we agree on the Trinity. I may not be expressing myself properly.
The meaning of LOGOS is the reason of God. It's a part of God. Jesus always existed as the Logos of God.
Since LOGOS is a part of God....He IS God. Jesus is a representation of the LOGOS of God.
§And of course all 3 are God.

As to your second sentence...
God Father is creator
God Son did the creating
God Holy Spirit's work does not include creation.

Each One has their very own work to do, and the work of the Holy Spirit is not to create.
I't's to help us to keep God's word, to comfort us, to be our paraclete, to convinct...
more, I'm sure.

I believe in Trinity too, but only according to the Bible's definition: "God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory." (1 Tim. 3:16, NKJV). Jesus Christ is God who has come in the flesh, every spirit that confesses that is of God, every spirit that does not confess that is not of God, but of the Antichrist (1 Jn. 4:2-3). Therefore, Jesus as the Word always existed, Jesus as a PERSON was conceived in Virgin Mary. This is no small matter, gentlemen, this is the dividing line that separates the Holy Spirit from demonic spirits.

 

[JLB]

There's a small nuance here that I can't quite get a hold of.
But basically we agree.

The difference between our understanding might be the USE of the word Elohim.

Elohim is GOD...ok.

To my understanding GOD is the entirety of the Godhead.
Now....Can we also call that GOD FATHER?

OR does God Father become distinct from GOD?
IOW, Is GOD the CONCEPT and God FATHER the Person?

Are you understanding me?

I wish JLB would participate.
He believes exactly as you do.

I think God is pleased when we all pursue a greater understanding of Him.

To my understanding GOD is the entirety of the Godhead.

Yes, if you mean Elohim (GOD) is the entirety Godhead;
Father, Son (WORD) and Holy Spirit.


My perspective comes from several scriptures, one of which is…

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9


The name that Elohim, The Godhead, has chosen to represent Them is Jesus; The Name above all names.


So when we worship Jesus we are worshipping the Eternal Godhead; for their fullness dwells in Him.


What most people don’t understand is Jesus is YHWH; the LORD.





JLB

 

[CherubRam]

If each member of the Trinity is GOD, then one cannot be greater than the other.
Otherwise there's a problem with the Trinity.
However, I do agree with you that calling Yeshua the Father does create a problem since we're getting two PERSONS mixed up as ONE.

As you must surely understand from your post....there is One God,,,but three Persons...
each Person is separate and has a different name.

"Holy Spirit" is a title for God the Father. It was recent converts from Paganism that determined that God was a Trinity.

 

[CherubRam]

I think God is pleased when we all pursue a greater understanding of Him.




Yes, if you mean Elohim (GOD) is the entirety Godhead;
Father, Son (WORD) and Holy Spirit.


My perspective comes from several scriptures, one of which is…

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Colossians 2:9


The name that Elohim, The Godhead, has chosen to represent Them is Jesus; The Name above all names.


So when we worship Jesus we are worshipping the Eternal Godhead; for their fullness dwells in Him.


What most people don’t understand is Jesus is YHWH; the LORD.





JLB

The term "Godhead" is not in the original text. Your understand of scriptures does not even agree with the Trinity doctrine.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The term "Godhead" is not in the original text. Your understand of scriptures does not even agree with the Trinity doctrine.

Trinity is more about God’s three presences - in heaven, on earth and between heaven and earth. Jesus is “the truth, the life, the way,” and there you’ve got it - God is eternal life, Jesus is the one and only way to God, and the Holy Spirit is the truth that points us to Jesus. This is not rocket science.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I think we agree on the Trinity. I may not be expressing myself properly.
The meaning of LOGOS is the reason of God. It's a part of God. Jesus always existed as the Logos of God.
Since LOGOS is a part of God....He IS God. Jesus is a representation of the LOGOS of God.
§And of course all 3 are God.

As to your second sentence...
God Father is creator
God Son did the creating
God Holy Spirit's work does not include creation.

Each One has their very own work to do, and the work of the Holy Spirit is not to create.
I't's to help us to keep God's word, to comfort us, to be our paraclete, to convinct...
more, I'm sure.

I can't agree with much of what you say here as it is not Biblical

This is Christology and needs to be deal with in another thread

 

[GodsGrace]

Then again, you have to decide what exactly qualifies as a PERSON. You said Jesus is an actual person distinct from God and the spirit, that's because he's a real historic figure with a human body. God cannot be and was not crucified, the Holy Spirit cannot be and was not crucified, Jesus was crucified. An actual person is a human being in flesh and blood, if you call Jesus a person, then don't call God and the Holy Spirit persons, it's not the same.

PERSON means something totally different than a human person.

The Early Church defined the Trinity.
It's not up to us to change that meaning.

I find this to be a good explanation. There are many more:
A person is distinct from any other person...and as such each Person of the Trinity has their own
Personhood and job qualification.

Christians hold that there are properties that distinguish the Persons. First, there are intra–Trinitarian relational properties the Persons have in virtue of their relations to other Trinitarian Persons: the Father begets the Son, but the Son does not beget the Son; the Spirit proceeds from the Father (and the Son) but neither the Father nor the Son proceeds from the Father (and the Son). Secondly, the Persons of the Trinity are distinguished in virtue of their distinctive “missions”—their activities in the world. The Second Person of the Trinity becomes incarnate, is born, suffers, dies, is buried, rises from the dead and ascends to the Father. According to orthodox doctrine, however, the same is not true of the Father (or Holy Spirit) and, indeed, the doctrine that the Father became incarnate, suffered and died is the heresy of patripassionism.

According to Latin Trinitarians, God, the Trinity, is an individual rather than a community of individuals sharing the same divine nature and each Person of the Trinity is that individual.
source: https://iep.utm.edu/trinity/#SH2B

 

[GodsGrace]

Trinity is more about God’s three presences - in heaven, on earth and between heaven and earth. Jesus is “the truth, the life, the way,” and there you’ve got it - God is eternal life, Jesus is the one and only way to God, and the Holy Spirit is the truth that points us to Jesus. This is not rocket science.

LOL
It IS rocket science!

Your above description is a heresy.
Maybe all of our explanations is heresy!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Trinity is more about God’s three presences - in heaven, on earth and between heaven and earth. Jesus is “the truth, the life, the way,” and there you’ve got it - God is eternal life, Jesus is the one and only way to God, and the Holy Spirit is the truth that points us to Jesus. This is not rocket science.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is YHWH and has existed as a Person from eternity past as the Father?

 

[GodsGrace]

"Holy Spirit" is a title for God the Father. It was recent converts from Paganism that determined that God was a Trinity.

I couldn't disagree more.
The Trinity was formulated early in the church and was confirmed in Nicea in 325AD by the church.

 

[SolaScriptura]

LOL
It IS rocket science!

Your above description is a heresy.
Maybe all of our explanations is heresy!

Certainly not all!

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe in Trinity too, but only according to the Bible's definition: "God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory." (1 Tim. 3:16, NKJV). Jesus Christ is God who has come in the flesh, every spirit that confesses that is of God, every spirit that does not confess that is not of God, but of the Antichrist (1 Jn. 4:2-3). Therefore, Jesus as the Word always existed, Jesus as a PERSON was conceived in Virgin Mary. This is no small matter, gentlemen, this is the dividing line that separates the Holy Spirit from demonic spirits.

I just want to make two statements:
1. I don't think the misunderstanding of the Trinity comes from demonic spirits.
It's just a difficult concept to grasp.
Maybe if we could understand everything about God, He wouldn't be God.

2. In no way does our misunderstanding of doctrine lead us to hell UNLESS that misunderstanding breaks the Laws of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

UNBIBLICAL!

What?
Have you studied Christian history?
And after this I'm bowing out.

 

[SolaScriptura]

What?
Have you studied Christian history?
And after this I'm bowing out.

I deleted this as I miss read what you wrote. but you must have replied before I could

 

[SolaScriptura]

Please try to keep to the OP, as we are now discussing Christology which requires another thread. thanks