˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[SolaScriptura]

Great thread and I agree with all you've said.
But wouldn't you say that creation is the "work" of the 2nd Person?
The Son...the Logos? (and not the Holy Spirit).

Colossians 1:16-17
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Creation cannot only be the work of Jesus Christ, as it is clear that God the Father is also the Creator:

Paul, speaking of the Father in Romans chapter 11, says, "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen" (verse 36)

In Hebrews 2:10, Paul also says of the Father, "For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings"

Both passages are of Creation

Job 33:4 says,

“The Spirit of God has Made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

This means that the Holy Spirit Created, and it is His Breath that gives all life.

This is the correct translation of the Hebrew, as in these Versions;

“The spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Almighty given me life” (JPS, Tanakh, 1917)

The Greek Version of the Old Testament, by Symmachus from Hebrew (late 2nd century), and much used by Jerome for his Latin Vulgate, reads, “πνεῦμα θεου τὸ” (the Spirit of God).

“The Spirit of God made me, and the breath of the Almighty gave me life.” (Latin Vulgate)

“The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life” (Syriac Peshetta)

“made”, from the Hebrew verb, “asah”, which is used in Genesis 1

“in the beginning God created (bara) the heavens and the earth…God made (asah) the expanse” (Genesis 1:1, 7)

Genesis chapter 2, verses 3-4, “And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven”

 

[GodsGrace]

Creation cannot only be the work of Jesus Christ, as it is clear that God the Father is also the Creator:

Paul, speaking of the Father in Romans chapter 11, says, "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen" (verse 36)

In Hebrews 2:10, Paul also says of the Father, "For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings"

Both passages are of Creation

Job 33:4 says,

“The Spirit of God has Made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

This means that the Holy Spirit Created, and it is His Breath that gives all life.

This is the correct translation of the Hebrew, as in these Versions;

“The spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Almighty given me life” (JPS, Tanakh, 1917)

The Greek Version of the Old Testament, by Symmachus from Hebrew (late 2nd century), and much used by Jerome for his Latin Vulgate, reads, “πνεῦμα θεου τὸ” (the Spirit of God).

“The Spirit of God made me, and the breath of the Almighty gave me life.” (Latin Vulgate)

“The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life” (Syriac Peshetta)

“made”, from the Hebrew verb, “asah”, which is used in Genesis 1

“in the beginning God created (bara) the heavens and the earth…God made (asah) the expanse” (Genesis 1:1, 7)

Genesis chapter 2, verses 3-4, “And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven”

God Father is the creator.
Jesus is the Logos, the reason of God.
The Word.
All was accomplished by the Word of God.

John 1:3
3All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:10
10He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Creation cannot only be the work of Jesus Christ, as it is clear that God the Father is also the Creator:

Paul, speaking of the Father in Romans chapter 11, says, "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen" (verse 36)

In Hebrews 2:10, Paul also says of the Father, "For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings"

Both passages are of Creation

Job 33:4 says,

“The Spirit of God has Made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

This means that the Holy Spirit Created, and it is His Breath that gives all life.

This is the correct translation of the Hebrew, as in these Versions;

“The spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Almighty given me life” (JPS, Tanakh, 1917)

The Greek Version of the Old Testament, by Symmachus from Hebrew (late 2nd century), and much used by Jerome for his Latin Vulgate, reads, “πνεῦμα θεου τὸ” (the Spirit of God).

“The Spirit of God made me, and the breath of the Almighty gave me life.” (Latin Vulgate)

“The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life” (Syriac Peshetta)

“made”, from the Hebrew verb, “asah”, which is used in Genesis 1

“in the beginning God created (bara) the heavens and the earth…God made (asah) the expanse” (Genesis 1:1, 7)

Genesis chapter 2, verses 3-4, “And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven”

Just want to add for those reading along...
BARA means to create from nothing
ASAH means to create from something.

God created from nothing the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1 BARA
Then, in verse 1:7 of Genesis, He separated the waters which were already in existence. ASAH

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

the singular “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah, is used when One Person of the Godhead is meant; and the plural "˒ĕlōhı̂m", when the Three are spoken of together.

So which One of the Three is the following speaking about and does this fully exclude the other two as there is none else?
Isaiah 45:22 (KJV): Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God (El), and there is none else.

Psalm 8:5 is not about God Creating humans in the "Image and Likeness" of "angels"; but, as seen in Hebrews 2:9, that for the duration of His Incarnate state, Jesus Christ was also "lower" than these Created angels, because of the fact that He suffered death on the cross, which the angels have not. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:7, is very clear, that all humans are Created in the Image of God ONLY. As does James 3:9

The Angels are included in the Creation of man. The same language is used in the following:
Genesis 5:3 (KJV): And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Does this exclude the fact that Seth was also to some extent in the likeness and image of Eve?

You cannot get around the fact, that in Hebrews 1:10-12, God the Father says to Jesus Christ, that He is The Creator of the Universe. Creation is the Work of Almighty God.

Which One of the three "Els" is being referred to as the Creator?
Isaiah 42:5 (KJV): 5 Thus saith God (El) the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

the Old Testament is against this

Read the Prophecy of the Birth of the Lord Jesus Christ in Isaiah 9:6, where one of HIS Titles is, "“’êl Gibbôr”, which is "Mighty God". In the next chapter, 10:21, we have the Father Who is also called “’êl Gibbôr”. Clearly there are TWO distinct Persons Who are equally called “’êl Gibbôr”. There can be no difference in the meaning in either the Hebrew or English translation.

In fact, the older Jewish Rabbis, understood this passage to refer to The Messiah. In the 1st/2nd century AD, Rabbi Yose HaGelili, said of this passage:

“Thus rabbi Jose, of Galilee, says, ‘The name of the Messiah is שׁלום shâlôm, as is said in Isa 9:6, “Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.” ‘Ben Sira (fol. 40, of the Amsterdam Edition, 1679) numbers among the eight names of the Messiah those also taken from this passage, Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace. The later Jews, however, have rejected this interpretation, because the Messiah is here described as God” (Albert Barnes Commentary)

About the same time we have the Jewish Targum of Jonathan Ben Uziel the disciple of Hillel (110 BC-10AD; Bab. Meg. 32):

“The prophet saith to the house of David, A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it, and his name has been called from of old (from eternity, Pauli ed), Wonderful counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives for ever, the Anointed one (or, Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us. Great shall be the splendour of them that observe the law, and of them that preserve peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to build it in judgement and in righteousness from henceforth and for ever: by the Memra of the Lord of hosts shall this be wrought” (Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel. J F Stenning; The Targum of Isaiah, p 32. Oxford 1953 ed, also, Rev. C. W. H. Pauli; Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel: The Chaldee Paraphrase on The Prophet Isaiah; pp.30, 31)

Clearly that the Prophecy is for Someone Who is Almighty God, Who is the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 9:6 is not correctly translated in order to prove a trinity.
Tanakh: Isaiah 9:6.

5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the (prince / minister) of peace."		הכִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמ֑וֹ וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמ֜וֹ פֶּ֠לֶא יוֹעֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבּ֔וֹר אֲבִי־עַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֽוֹם:
6To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.

 

[SolaScriptura]

God Father is the creator.
Jesus is the Logos, the reason of God.
The Word.
All was accomplished by the Word of God.

John 1:3
3All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:10
10He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

In Colossians 1:16, Paul says of Jesus Christ:

"en autōi ektisthē ta panta", literally, "in Him were Created all things". Not simply "BY Him", as in the English Versions. The force of the Greek preposition "en", denotes that Jesus Christ is the SOURCE of all Creation. In Acts 17:28, Paul says of Almighty God, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being". Here we also have, "en autōi", (IN Him), the exact same preposition as in Colossians 1:16, which speaks of the SOURCE of all life.

As I have said, it is quite wrong to understand the Greek preposition, "di'", in places like John 1:3, 10, as "by" or "through", as it is clear from the Bible that more than One Person in the Godhead, Who Created.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Just want to add for those reading along...
BARA means to create from nothing
ASAH means to create from something.

God created from nothing the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1 BARA
Then, in verse 1:7 of Genesis, He separated the waters which were already in existence. ASAH

This distinction between bârâʼ and ʻâsâh, is oversimplified.

In Genesis 2:2, Moses is speaking of the Creation by God:

"And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made"

In both places we the Hebrew ʻâsâh is used, being translated "made". This cannot mean simply, as Creation from something, but, Creation out of nothing!

In the following work both Hebrew words are used for the whole of Creation

"This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created (bârâʼ), in the day that the LORD God made (ʻâsâh) the earth and the heavens"

ʻâsâh here clearly refers to the Creation of the entire Universe, as the phrase "the earth and the heavens", is as in Genesis 1:1

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

the Old Testament is against this

"Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is ONE."
"You shall have no other gods before me."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

the singular “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah, is used when One Person of the Godhead is meant; and the plural "˒ĕlōhı̂m", when the Three are spoken of together.

Another usage of the singular title "El" is when Abraham encounters Melchizedek:
Genesis 14:18–20 (KJV): 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Who is the one of the "three" different beings or persons called "El" spoken of here? And if this is speaking of Yahweh, God the Father and He is the most high El, are the other "two" (who you call God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) "high", but not as high as God the Father?

Also the Yahweh Name is always translated "I AM" (KJV) or my preferred "I Wilbe" (Tyndale) or "I Will Be" (RV and RSV margins), never "WE ARE" or "We Will Be". Jesus is a separate Being to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, and this is also clearly evident from Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:21.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

"Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is ONE."
"You shall have no other gods before me."

the Hebrew here is

“šə·ma‘ yiś·rā·’êl Yah·weh ’ĕ·lō·hê·nū Yah·weh ’e·ḥāḏ”

Which can be translated in English as either

“Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God Yahweh is Unique”
or
“Hear,O Israel: Yahweh our God Yahweh is the Only One”

This use of the Hebrew "’e·ḥāḏ”, is very clear in Song of Solomon, 6:9;

"But my dove, my perfect one, is unique (’a·ḥaṯ): She is her mother’s only (’a·ḥaṯ) daughter" (NASB)

This Teaches the UNIQUENESS of the One True God of Israel, in relation to all other so called "gods", which are false.

As we see in Psalm 18:31, “For who is God, except the LORD? And who is a Rock, except our God?”

In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus Christ is "’êl Gibbôr", and in 10:21, the Father is "’êl Gibbôr". In the New World Translation of the Bible which is published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, who deny the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God, translate the Hebrew in both places, "Mighty God". It is clear to the honest person, that in these two verses, we have TWO distinct Persons Who are EQUALLY MIGHTY GOD. This is conclusive evidence that the Godhead cannot be just One Person, the Father, because Jesus Christ is EQUAL to the Father, as MIGHTY GOD.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings again SolaScriptura,

Another usage of the singular title "El" is when Abraham encounters Melchizedek:
Genesis 14:18–20 (KJV): 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Who is the one of the "three" different beings or persons called "El" spoken of here? And if this is speaking of Yahweh, God the Father and He is the most high El, are the other "two" (who you call God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) "high", but not as high as God the Father?

Also the Yahweh Name is always translated "I AM" (KJV) or my preferred "I Wilbe" (Tyndale) or "I Will Be" (RV and RSV margins), never "WE ARE" or "We Will Be". Jesus is a separate Being to the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, and this is also clearly evident from Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:21.

Kind regards
Trevor

see my previous post, both the Father and Jesus Christ are called "’êl Gibbôr", which is MIGHTY GOD. So "’êl", can refer to either the Father or Jesus Christ.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Those who also reject that the God of the Bible is more than One Person, and anti-Trinitarian, are known as Unitarian, who, like the Jews, believe that God is just the One Person, Who is the Father.

You seem well versed on belief systems , do Unitarians have a common clear understanding of when & how Jesus had His beginning ?
If they do I have not heard it.
Thank You .

 

[SolaScriptura]

You seem well versed on belief systems , do Unitarians have a common clear understanding of when & how Jesus had His beginning ?
If they do I have not heard it.
Thank You .

Unitarians teach that Jesus Christ was Created by the Father, and subordinate to Him, as is the Holy Spirit.

Even in the Old Testament, both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are clearly called Yahweh, which Name means One Who is Eternal, and Almighty God.

Anyone or group that denies that the God of the Bible is Three distinct, equal Persons, Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, are basically "Unitarian", which is a demonic teaching and100% against the Holy Bible

 

[Consecrated Life]

Unitarians teach that Jesus Christ was Created by the Father, and subordinate to Him, as is the Holy Spirit.

Even in the Old Testament, both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are clearly called Yahweh, which Name means One Who is Eternal, and Almighty God.

Anyone or group that denies that the God of the Bible is Three distinct, equal Persons, Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, are basically "Unitarian", which is a demonic teaching and100% against the Holy Bible

WHEN ?
As in when do they believe the Father created Jesus.
Before or after Mary became pregnant ?
If before, how long before?
Was Jesus created at the same moment the Holy Spirit was created according to Unitarian belief ?
It just seems to me they would want everyone to be on the same sheet of music

 

[CherubRam]

Just want to add for those reading along...
BARA means to create from nothing
ASAH means to create from something.

God created from nothing the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1 BARA
Then, in verse 1:7 of Genesis, He separated the waters which were already in existence. ASAH

After creating the universe God came upon the world which was a body of water without form. Dark Matter is a type of nothingness because it has no atomic bonds to be anything. Dark matter is primordial. Natural time is also primordial, and is the progression of events. Dark Matter is God's store house for creating. There is an area of space which is lacking in Dark Matter, which proves Dark Matter does exist.

The reason the world was a body of water is because the Sun already existed.

Genesis 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
The world was covered by clouds. God caused the Suns light to appear upon the Earth.

 

[SolaScriptura]

WHEN ?
As in when do they believe the Father created Jesus.
Before or after Mary became pregnant ?
If before, how long before?
Was Jesus created at the same moment the Holy Spirit was created according to Unitarian belief ?
It just seems to me they would want everyone to be on the same sheet of music

What Do Biblical Unitarians Believe? - BiblicalUnitarian.com

A list of things that Biblical Unitarians believe.

www.biblicalunitarian.com

 

[Consecrated Life]

What Do Biblical Unitarians Believe? - BiblicalUnitarian.com

A list of things that Biblical Unitarians believe.

www.biblicalunitarian.com

Thanks , looks like they believe Jesus was created at the moment Mary became pregnant .

"We believe that God was literally Jesus’ father, in that God created Jesus’s life in Mary ."

It always make me wonder why people come up with beliefs that leaves them no choice but having to argue against not just one, but with a multitude of scriptures that clearly contradicts them.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Thanks , looks like they believe Jesus was created at the moment Mary became pregnant .

"We believe that God was literally Jesus’ father, in that God created Jesus’s life in Mary ."

It always make me wonder why people come up with beliefs that leaves them no choice but having to argue against not just one, but with a multitude of scriptures that clearly contradicts them.

Because there are those who will not accept the Truth as taught in the Holy Bible, but rather the LIES from the father of LIES. As did Adam and Eve and Judas etc

 

[GodsGrace]

In Colossians 1:16, Paul says of Jesus Christ:

"en autōi ektisthē ta panta", literally, "in Him were Created all things". Not simply "BY Him", as in the English Versions. The force of the Greek preposition "en", denotes that Jesus Christ is the SOURCE of all Creation. In Acts 17:28, Paul says of Almighty God, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being". Here we also have, "en autōi", (IN Him), the exact same preposition as in Colossians 1:16, which speaks of the SOURCE of all life.

As I have said, it is quite wrong to understand the Greek preposition, "di'", in places like John 1:3, 10, as "by" or "through", as it is clear from the Bible that more than One Person in the Godhead, Who Created.

BY HIM
THROUGH HIM
IN HIM

What's the difference?

I don't really understand your post above.
I know a lot is lost when translating....
but I have to trust the translators who know Greek and the culture of the times.

I agree with you that there is more than one Person in the Godhead that created.
God Father had the THOUGHT, THE REASON --- The Logos.

God the Son did the actual creating.
I do believe John stated this.

 

[GodsGrace]

This distinction between bârâʼ and ʻâsâh, is oversimplified.

In Genesis 2:2, Moses is speaking of the Creation by God:

"And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made"

In both places we the Hebrew ʻâsâh is used, being translated "made". This cannot mean simply, as Creation from something, but, Creation out of nothing!

In the following work both Hebrew words are used for the whole of Creation

"This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created (bârâʼ), in the day that the LORD God made (ʻâsâh) the earth and the heavens"

ʻâsâh here clearly refers to the Creation of the entire Universe, as the phrase "the earth and the heavens", is as in Genesis 1:1

I don't know what work you're speaking of .....
My NASB states the following:

Genesis 1:1-7
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. BARA - FROM NOTHING
2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
3Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so ASAH - FROM SOMETHING


I understand that God first CREATED, BARA, the universe from NOTHING.

THEN, from what already existed, God MADE the expanse... ASAH, separated the expanse which was ALREADY PRESENT.

You don't agree?

Then why use two different words?