˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[GodsGrace]

Greetings wondering and JLB,

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the KJV convention that in the OT both of the following in capitals "LORD" and "God" are translations of the Hebrew word "Yahweh".


Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
In the above passage I understand "LORD" represents the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. The same English word in English, but in lower case "Lord" and here David's Lord, represents our Lord Jesus Christ, a human now exalted to sit at the right hand of the One God, the Father in God the Father's Throne and Jesus did not pre-exist but is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

Well I certainly am.
I won't speak for JLB but he certainly is well versed in biblical matters.

So, I understand you're saying that Yahweh is not Jesus in Personhood.
Which I would agree with.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

The above proves that Jesus is God.
The OT also states that God HIMSELF will save us.

Jesus, the Son of man is not God .He was born of a woman just like any human and is subject to a person must be born again of God from above

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father as Christ the anointing one .By His Spirit of adoption all sons of God to include Jesus our brother. . . can cry out Abba Father

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus, the Son of man is not God .He was born of a woman just like any human and is subject to a person must be born again of God from above

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father as Christ the anointing one .By His Spirit of adoption all sons of God to include Jesus our brother. . . can cry out Abba Father

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Mr. G Lee,
We shouldn't turn this into a thread on the Godhead/Trinity,
but I do have a question for you, and it's sincere....

You've identified yourself as a Christian.
Why do you believe yourself to be a Christian if you do NOT believe Jesus is God?

A Christian MUST believe that Jesus is God.
Don't you believe that this is one of the requirements?

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

I am very convinced of my overall view of the One God the Father and Jesus as the Son of God. There are a number of obscure or ambiguous passages that I prefer to avoid when discussing with Trinitarians. That does not mean that I ignore them.

The following are my notes that I made in 2018 which I had added to my Bible Program.
Hebrews 1:2 (KJV): "by whom also he made the worlds"
by: dia = through or on account of whom. RV, RSV have "through". The means by which something is accomplished. He is the central, pivotal point of God's plan. Everything else revolves around him.
worlds: aion = ages or epochs of time. Companion Bible - "any given period of time, characterised by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation". e.g. the antediluvian age, the patriarchal age, ..., the Gentile age, the millennium age. All the ages, past, present and future were designed by God with Christ in mind. One suggestion "with a view to whom, He (God) made the ages".

Dia can mean "on account of," but it is largely translated as "through". Given the other passages that say the same thing, and even stronger, the verse means that everything that was created was created through the Son.

Here are two passages that I do not avoid. I understand "The Word" in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8 who was with God in the creation.

Except that it cannot be a personification. We need to look at the Greek to see what John said.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Looking at the first clause, "In the beginning" is clearly a reference to Gen 1:1. The word "was" is the Greek, en, which is a form of eimi (I Am), and speaks of continuous action in the past; that is, absolute preexistence before any creation. What that statement means is that when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence, and hence, there was never a time when he did not exist. The very same applies to the Father, who has absolute preexistence.

In the second clause, "and the Word was with God," it is the Greek pros that is translated as "with." But it isn't merely speaking of being together or near. It expresses “direction towards,” as in relationship and communion, implying intimacy. It is important to note here that in the Greek the article is present, so it reads, "the Word was with [the] God." So, God is a reference to someone other than the Word, at a minimum it is a reference to the Father.

When it comes to the last clause, "the Word was God," it is significant that "God" doesn't have the article in the Greek, as it was in the preceding clause. If the article had been present then "Word" and "God" become interchangeable, and they are one and the same, which is the error of Oneness theology. But this whole passage is about the logos, who the logos is, not who God is, so John purposely doesn't use the article to avoid equating the two words. What it can only mean then, is that the Word was divine in nature, or deity. However, since there is only one God, it is rightly translated as "the Word was God."

We should also consider verses 2, 3, and 14:

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. (ESV)

We see a repeat of verse 1 with the use of en, pros, and God with the article, reaffirming the timeless preexistence of the Word who was in active communion with the Father.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Simple, straightforward logic tells us that since "all things were made through" the Word, and that "without him was not any thing made that was made," it necessarily follows that the Word is not something that was made (see also 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2, 10-12). That is, there never was a time when the Word did not exist. It cannot be otherwise, other John's claims here are false.

John then makes it clear in verse 14 that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." That is, the Word, not the Father, entered into time--Greek for "become" is egeneto (same as "made" in verse 3)--and took on human flesh. This is precisely what Paul is speaking of in Phil 2:5-8. John only uses egeneto in his prologue of things that come into existence.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. (ESV)

Again, we see that "the world was made through him," that is, through the Son, Jesus Christ. Here, "world" is the Greek word kosmos. This can only mean that he was in existence when the creation began and is, therefore, eternal. Otherwise, it's a false claim on the part of John.

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

This is pretty self-explanatory.

John's whole point is who the Word is. The purpose of his prologue is to introduce us to the Word become flesh, God entering into time as a human, in the person of Jesus. To sum then, the Word had eternal preexistence, the same as the Father, in intimate relationship with God, and was in nature deity himself. Yet, we know there was only one God. The best explanation is that there is plurality within the one God, hence, the historical doctrine of the Trinity best takes this evidence into account.

1 Corinthians 8:6 is a key Unitarian verse which embarasses most Trinitarians, but they feel more comfortable by mentioning it in supposed support of their doctrine.

Embarrasses? Not at all. It cannot be understand except from a Trinitarian point of view. It's most likely Paul's expansion of the Shema, in Deut 6:4. Note the similarities:

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Apart from that, simple logic produces two interesting results. First, if "one God, the Father" excludes Jesus (rather, the Son) from being God, it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" excludes the Father from being Lord. Yet, we know that the latter is not the case; so the former cannot be the case either.

Second, if "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternal nature and creative action of the Father, it necessarily follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternal nature of the Son and co-creative action of the Son. It simply cannot be otherwise, or we set the verse into contradiction and one of those statements is false.

However, it's not hard to notice that it completely agrees with John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17 and doesn't contradict the Shema.

I understand that the first, primary meaning of Deuteronomy 6:4 is that God is One Person, and then that there is only One God in contrast to the many gods and idols of the surrounding nations. There is no hint of three persons, but One God revealed through many agents, such as Angels and Judges, both classes mentioned as "Elohim" (back to our original topic).

No, there is no hint of three persons, but that is not my argument. The point is that it says absolutely nothing about one person or three persons; it says nothing about persons at all. So, that cannot be a primary meaning; it cannot be a meaning at any level. It is only a statement of monotheism.

I believe that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator Psalm 8:1-3, Matthew 11:25-30.

And, yet, as I pointed out, Heb 1:10-12 has the Father saying the Son is the creator. The implication is that the Son is co-creator. That also means that Heb 1:2 really does mean that the Son was the instrument, the means and channel, through which creation happened.

Be careful with stating that only God the Father is Yahweh; that is fallaciously begging the question. Again, there is not a single verse in the Bible which clearly or directly states that God, Yahweh, is only one person.

Also, there is nothing in Matt 11:25-30 to suggest that only the Father is creator.

All of this suggests that Elohim being a plural for the persons within the one God would not be an incorrect understanding.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Mr. G Lee,
We shouldn't turn this into a thread on the Godhead/Trinity,
but I do have a question for you, and it's sincere....

You've identified yourself as a Christian.
Why do you believe yourself to be a Christian if you do NOT believe Jesus is God?

A Christian MUST believe that Jesus is God.
Don't you believe that this is one of the requirements?

Yes, I do Jesus or Jehovah as the Christ is Holy Spirit of the Father. It worked in the Son of man. Jesus .

The Holy Spirit of adoption by which we can cry out Abba father

God is not a man

 

[Free]

Yes, I do Jesus or Jehovah as the Christ is Holy Spirit of the Father. It worked in the Son of man. Jesus .

The Holy Spirit of adoption by which we can cry out Abba father

God is not a man

So why is the Holy Spirit also called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, and the Spirit of his Son?

 

[Mr. G Lee]

So why is the Holy Spirit also called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, and the Spirit of his Son?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God as the Father .Its the Spirit of Christ (the anointing teacher) that worked in the Son of man, Jesus . . empowering him to do the will of the Father .

Jesus is like Joshua or Jehovah (savor) it does not refer to the flesh

 

[Free]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God as the Father .Its the Spirit of Christ (the anointing teacher) that worked in the Son of man, Jesus . . empowering him to do the will of the Father

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and is the Spirit of Christ.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (ESV)

1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (ESV)

Jesus is like Joshua or Jehovah (savor) it does not refer to the flesh

What does not refer to the flesh?

 

[Mr. G Lee]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and is the Spirit of Christ.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (ESV)

1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (ESV)

Amen.

What does not refer to the flesh?

The word savoir refers to the Spirit not seen The Spirit of Christ . The savior of men seen

 

[7thMoon]

So why is the Holy Spirit also called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, and the Spirit of his Son?

Prove it. verses, please?

 

[Free]

Amen.

The word savoir refers to the Spirit not seen The Spirit of Christ . The savior of men seen

The word savior refers to Jesus Christ in the flesh, as it also refers to the Father and God in general.

Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

Hos 13:4 But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.

Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Jhn 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Jud 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

(All ESV.)

 

[Free]

Prove it. verses, please?

I gave two already.

Act 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
Act 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance,

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Lord in this verse most likely refers to Jesus:

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

(All ESV.)

 

[7thMoon]

I gave two already.

Act 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
Act 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance,

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Lord in this verse most likely refers to Jesus:

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

(All ESV.)

Weak. The 2 verses of Acts are the closest you get to proving your point, and they are 2 separate happenings.

 

[7thMoon]

The word savior refers to Jesus Christ in the flesh, as it also refers to the Father and God in general.

Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.

Hos 13:4 But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.

Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Jhn 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Jud 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

(All ESV.)

Has it occurred to you that the savior is the father and the son together as separate entities?

 

[Free]

Weak. The 2 verses are the closest you get to proving your point, and they are 2 separate happenings.

What two verses? I posted 7. And instead of just saying “weak,” give some concrete evidence that they’re weak; for each verse.

Has it occurred to you that the savior is the father and the son together as separate entities?

Of course, that is what I believe. I was addressing something specific.

 

[7thMoon]

What two verses? I posted 7. And instead of just saying “weak,” give some concrete evidence that they’re weak; for each verse.

There is no concreate proof in them. Thus they are weak. I forgot to mention of Acts, the gospel of Luke part 2.

Of course, that is what I believe. I was addressing something specific.

I think together themselves to be the savior. But the son is not father, and the father not son. Thusly what I believe is a little different.

 

[Free]

There is no concreate proof in them. Thus they are weak. I forgot to mention of Acts, the gospel of Luke part 2.

I am asking you for specific reasons as to why they’re weak. If you can’t give any other reason than to say they’re weak, then you shouldn’t be making such a claim.

They’re all quite clear, especially Rom 8:9 and 1 Pet 1:11.

I think together themselves to be the savior. But the son is not father, and the father not son. Thusly what I believe is a little different.

Doesn’t sound like it. I don’t believe the Son is the Father nor is the Father the Son.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again wondering and Free,

Well I certainly am. So, I understand you're saying that Yahweh is not Jesus in Personhood. Which I would agree with.

I am not sure what you are claiming above. The reason why I commented on your earlier statement is that in KJV terms the following is saying: "Jesus is GOD (=KJV "Yahweh"), yes, but is He Yahweh?" In other words, "Jesus is Yahweh, but is He Yahweh?"

Jesus is GOD, yes, but is He Yahweh?

Except that it cannot be a personification. We need to look at the Greek to see what John said.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

I will hold on to the personification view and will not comment on your "Greek".

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)
This is pretty self-explanatory.

I prefer the KJV rendition as the ESV is contradictory. It says that no one has ever seen God, and yet it is obvious that many had seen Jesus, the Son of God. This proves Jesus is not God.
John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Embarrasses? Not at all. It cannot be understand except from a Trinitarian point of view. It's most likely Paul's expansion of the Shema, in Deut 6:4. Note the similarities:
Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

Yes, Paul is most probably alluding to Deuteronomy 6:4 which teaches that there is One God, Yahweh, not three Gods and Paul calls this One God as the Father.

No, there is no hint of three persons, but that is not my argument. The point is that it says absolutely nothing about one person or three persons; it says nothing about persons at all. So, that cannot be a primary meaning; it cannot be a meaning at any level. It is only a statement of monotheism.

One Being = One Person. Yahweh is One.

Apart from that, simple logic produces two interesting results. First, if "one God, the Father" excludes Jesus (rather, the Son) from being God, it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" excludes the Father from being Lord. Yet, we know that the latter is not the case; so the former cannot be the case either.

This is a very shallow argument as there is a difference between Yahweh as "Lord" (Adonai) and Jesus as "Lord" (David's Adon).

Be careful with stating that only God the Father is Yahweh; that is fallaciously begging the question. Again, there is not a single verse in the Bible which clearly or directly states that God, Yahweh, is only one person.

Psalm 110:1 is very clear, and this refutes the Trinity.

Also, there is nothing in Matt 11:25-30 to suggest that only the Father is creator.

Jesus is quoting and alluding to Psalm 8 and this clearly proves that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator. Jesus is distinguished from Yahweh in Psalm 8 and is distinguished from God the Father, His Father in Matthew 11:25-30.

All of this suggests that Elohim being a plural for the persons within the one God would not be an incorrect understanding.

No Elohim is the One God, One Person, One Being who delights to share His Plan, Purpose and Work through others including Angels, Judges and Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[SolaScriptura]

Do you deny that Jesus Christ is LORD?




JLB

where have you been? ALL of my posts on here are very clear, that Jesus Christ, the Father and Holy Spirit are YHWH

 

[Free]

I will hold on to the personification view and will not comment on your "Greek".

Why? Proper and thorough study should always be done to come to an understanding of something in the Bible. And that should certainly include looking into the Greek (and Hebrew). If we just go by opinions or feelings, it could mean the difference between eternal life and death. The Greek says what it says and it is more important to try and understand that than English translations. Of course, legitimate English translations agree with the Greek anyway. There not only is nothing in the context to suggest personification, there is everything to suggest it couldn’t be.

Even without the Greek, the meaning is clear—the Word cannot be a personification; he is deity. Notice what John says in 1:15:

Jhn 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) (ESV)

How could that be since Jesus was born after John? Even Jesus says, more than once, that he came from heaven.

I prefer the KJV rendition as the ESV is contradictory. It says that no one has ever seen God, and yet it is obvious that many had seen Jesus, the Son of God. This proves Jesus is not God.

Not at all. No one has seen God as he exists in and of himself. He revealed himself in the person of Jesus. As Jesus said, ”Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

To be the one and only Son of God is to be deity, to be God in nature. The Jews believed knew this to be true and it is mentioned twice in John’s gospel.

Yes, Paul is most probably alluding to Deuteronomy 6:4 which teaches that there is One God, Yahweh, not three Gods and Paul calls this One God as the Father.

It is a straw man to think that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches three gods. That there is only one God is a foundation of the Trinity.

One Being = One Person. Yahweh is One.

In human terms, yes, but not so with God. He is one Being—one substance or essence—with persons.

Psalm 110:1 is very clear, and this refutes the Trinity.

How, exactly?

Jesus is quoting and alluding to Psalm 8 and this clearly proves that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator. Jesus is distinguished fro Yahweh in Psalm 8 and is distinguished from God the Father, His Father in Matthew 11:25-30.

Of course Jesus is distinguished from the Father; they are not the same person. I see no quoting or allusion to Psalm 8 in Matt 11:25-30.

No Elohim is the One God, One Person, One Being who delights to share His Plan, Purpose and Work through others including Angels, Judges and Jesus.

But, again, there isn’t a single verse in the Bible which clearly or directly states that God is only one person.